Christianity and Guns in the US

martinnew

I have a lot of Christian friends in the US.. All would be extremely pro the 2nd amendment. The Right to bear arms.

What is it with the right in the US and guns? Gun ownership is about 77%.

as a matter of interest are there any Christians here who would share the opinion that we should all arm up to protect ourselves.?

philologos

martinnew wrote: »

I have a lot of Christian friends in the US.. All would be extremely pro the 2nd amendment. The Right to bear arms.

What is it with the right in the US and guns? Gun ownership is about 77%.

as a matter of interest are there any Christians here who would share the opinion that we should all arm up to protect ourselves.?

I'm not opposed to gun possession at home. I'm not hugely inclined to go and get one though.

georgieporgy

martinnew wrote: »

I have a lot of Christian friends in the US.. All would be extremely pro the 2nd amendment. The Right to bear arms.

What is it with the right in the US and guns? Gun ownership is about 77%.

as a matter of interest are there any Christians here who would share the opinion that we should all arm up to protect ourselves.?

There are a lot of home invasions in Ireland where the elderly defenceless occupants are at the mercy of the (often murderous) intruder. If Irish homeowners were armed I think we would see less of that.

personally, I rely on my guardian angel and holy water. But I am pro choice on the matter.

Manach

First - those pesky Quakers, each one armed to the eye-teeth.

On the substantive matter, I would reckon (based on my viewing of US forums), gun supporters would have a tendancy to come from the more conservative spectrum. So non-believers with that slant would also be pro-gun ownership.
As Georgieporgy there is a good case to be made for responsible gun-ownership both in the context of home defence and in a wider society context as part of a national defence, which the Swiss and Finns have without in most part the tragic incidents of last week in the US.

J C

georgieporgy wrote: »

There are a lot of home invasions in Ireland where the elderly defenceless occupants are at the mercy of the (often murderous) intruder. If Irish homeowners were armed I think we would see less of that.

personally, I rely on my guardian angel and holy water. But I am pro choice on the matter.

If we arm pensioners we'll see a lot more innocent dead people ... just like in America. I'm talking about the thousands of 'ordinary' shootings in America ... and not the horrific school shootings.

A gun is a 'two edged sword' ... if the intruder discovers it lying about ... it could be used on the householder ... and if the householder sleeps with the gun I can think of much better bed partners!!
... equally, if you face an intruder with a gun ... and don't use it when an intruder rushes you ... they may take it off you ... and could use it on you.
Mistakes can also be made ... and a housholder could shoot a legitimate visitor that s/he thinks is an intruder.
... you could also easily shoot a member of your own family in a different room if you were to shoot at an intruder ... and the bullet went through a stud-wall.


Guns have their place for contolling vermin and hunting game.
They're also great fun when used to pit your skills at a clay pigeon shoot.

... however, when it comes to interpersonal conflict situations they are downright dangerous ... for both the householder and other people ... and should never be used or produced in these situations. They should be left under lock in the gun-safe at all times ... and the ammo should be under lock and key in a separate safe.

The same 'double edged sword' problem is also present when the state uses heavy arms as a deterrent.
I was in a crowded foreign airport recently and they had army personnel armed with heavy semi-automatic weapons in the departure lounge ... and I wondered what scenario they were supposed to prevent ... if somebody attacked them ... and they 'opened up' with the weapons they were carrying, they would have killed and injured hundreds of innocent people in the departure lounge ... and the ricochets wouild likely kill themselves!!!
Equally, any person potentially attacking them wouldn't be armed themselves due to the earlier security checks upon entering the airport ... and the soldiers could actually become a source of weaponry to the attackers ... if they didn't fire on the attackers ... which would be a suicidal 'nuclear option' in the close confines of a metal clad mass concrete building like the departure lounge was.

I can only assume it was all for 'show' ... but I found it a dangerous and potentially counter-productive 'show'.

J C

Manach wrote: »

First - those pesky Quakers, each one armed to the eye-teeth.

On the substantive matter, I would reckon (based on my viewing of US forums), gun supporters would have a tendancy to come from the more conservative spectrum. So non-believers with that slant would also be pro-gun ownership.
As Georgieporgy there is a good case to be made for responsible gun-ownership both in the context of home defence and in a wider society context as part of a national defence, which the Swiss and Finns have without in most part the tragic incidents of last week in the US.

I don't believe that guns have any place in personal defense as they are likely to always make a bad situation worse.
If produced, a gun can also serously escalate a domestic dispute with disasterous potential consequences.


The mythical intruder versus the armed homeowner is just that ... a dangerous myth ... and the armed homeowner is much more likely to kill an innocent person or even a member of his family ... and since when has burglary become a capital crime anyway???

... most burglars are young desperate kids trying to feed a drug habit ... and they are likely to flee at the first signs of discovery ... and they also predominantly break into houses that are unoccupied during the day!!!!

The Bible has some salutory words for those who would rely on guns for their personal protection ... 'he who lives by the sword ... will die by the sword'.

Peregrinus

georgieporgy wrote: »

There are a lot of home invasions in Ireland where the elderly defenceless occupants are at the mercy of the (often murderous) intruder. If Irish homeowners were armed I think we would see less of that.

We'd see much more of that, if the US experience is anything to go by.

Happy Monday

The Christian Right rednecks were soundly defeated in the Presidential election. These people in the US - and dare I say their version in Ireland on the abortion issue - can be faced down and defeated. Just needs some political will.

Victor

georgieporgy wrote: »

There are a lot of home invasions in Ireland where the elderly defenceless occupants are at the mercy of the (often murderous) intruder.

Really? How many people are killed by burglars? 5 per year?

If Irish homeowners were armed I think we would see less of that.

But you would find more familial murders and killings of callers to the door. You would also have a proliferation of weapons to low level criminals.

Peregrinus

Victor wrote: »

Really? How many people are killed by burglars? 5 per year?

I suspect none at all, most years. There were 42 murders reported in the Republic in 2011, and from googling I can't find newspaper reports of any of them occurring during a housebreaking. I found one incident in 2012, but that was in Coleraine, and so wouldn't show up in the Republic of Ireland figures anyway. Murder in the course of burglary is very rare in Ireland, and using the possiblity to advocate homeowners owning guns is irresponsible scaremongering.

Victor wrote: »

But you would find more familial murders and killings of callers to the door. You would also have a proliferation of weapons to low level criminals.

Evidence from the US is that having a gun in your home is associated with a significant increase in your chance of being a victim of violent crime. And where gun ownership is widespread then everyone's chances of being a victim of violent crime are increased, including the people who don't own guns. (But the chances of people who do own guns getting injured goes up by more.)

georgieporgy

I was referring to home invasions and not "harmless burglary" by innocent teenagers looking for easy cash.
If it's ok for the bad guys to have guns, why not let some of the good guys have one or two.
There's nothing like the possibility of an armed homeowner to make an intruder think twice.
Statistics from the States are a bit skewerd. If a person shoots an aggressor in self defense it gets chalked up as a gun incident.
In the recent unfortunate incident, if the armed response unit arrived earlier, the number of fatalities would have been less. (fair dues to them, they did arrive pretty quick)

Does anybody have statistics for a more normal country like Switzerland, where I understand every homeowner is legally required to hold a gun? According to wikipedia, there are fewer gun related homicides in Switzerland than, for example, Canada.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

These statistics unfortunately say nothing about knife attacks/ killings.

MadsL

I know a Church Deacon who recently took his concealed carry permit specifically to bring a gun to church to protect the congregation.

PDN

MadsL wrote: »

I know a Church Deacon who recently took his concealed carry permit specifically to bring a gun to church to protect the congregation.

That terrifies me. I don't want to be 'protected' by some self-appointed vigilante.

If I was a congregant in such a church then I would feel much safer changing to another church where I was not 'protected' in such a manner.

mdebets

georgieporgy wrote: »

There's nothing like the possibility of an armed homeowner to make an intruder think twice.

No, if the intruder is likely, to encounter an armed homeowner, he is more likely to arm up even more and attack the homeowner first.
There is also nothing worse than someone (homeowner) pointing a gun at someone (intruder), who is not willing or can't pull the trigger. He is much more likely to end up at the receiving end of his own weapon.

georgieporgy wrote: »

Does anybody have statistics for a more normal country like Switzerland, where I understand every homeowner is legally required to hold a gun? According to wikipedia, there are fewer gun related homicides in Switzerland than, for example, Canada.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

I don't have any other statistics for Switzerland, but not every homeowner has to own a gun, it's just men who did military service, who have their military weapon at home. That means, unlike for example in the US or Canada, the people owning the guns, are highly trained on their weapons and know how to use them. Even then, Switzerland has a 3 times higher gun related deathrate than countries, who have no wide spread gun use.

J C

Happy Monday wrote: »

The Christian Right rednecks were soundly defeated in the Presidential election. These people in the US - and dare I say their version in Ireland on the abortion issue - can be faced down and defeated. Just needs some political will.

I object strongly to the use of the term 'redneck' to describe somebody who believes that wantonly killing unborn children is a moral outrage.
The real 'red in tooth and claw' people in Ireland are the pro-abortionists ... and if any group are to be compared to the pro-gun 'rednecks' as you call them, it is the pro-abortion people.

It is an obvious fact that if you arm people who have no reason to be armed they will get 'trigger happy' ... and the daily shooting carnage in America is the result.

The very brave decision at the foundation of the Gardai (in the middle of the Civil War) to have an unarmed police force has probably saved thousands of lives (including Gardai themselves) and I feel very proud at the sight of our brave and unarmed police force patrolling our streets with the moral authority that comes from a supportive citizenry ... and I don't feel in any way safe standing anywhere near an armed policeperson in (practically every other) country where armed police are the norm.
Ireland has struck the right balance ... an unarmed police force backed up by highly trained armed police ... whom the criminals with guns have every reason to fear.
... and we have avoided the 'arms race' between people and police and criminals that is devastasting America.

Nothing is ever as simple as it seems.
In Ireland we have 300,000 guns ... but they are held by trained people with a day to day need for them ... and who responsibly store them ... and don't use or produce them in inter-personal situations.

The problem in America is the 'gun culture' ... where some people think of themselves as some kind of 'John Wayne' or 'Dirty Harry' ... going out to avenge some imaginary issue ... and shooting first ... and asking questions later!!!

President Obama is right about this ... when he says that laws ... and the removal of assault weapons won't solve the problem ... on their own.
... America needs a culture change ... and this is one of the most difficult things to achieve.

I don't envy Obama on this one ... but I pray that he will succeed ... for everyone's sake.

doctoremma

Well, isn't that a turn up for the books.

JC, I wholeheartedly agree with you re: guns.

*faints*

Fanny Cradock

Very well said, JC.

(Can't say I've typed that before)

Happy Monday

J C wrote: »

I object strongly to the use of the term 'redneck' to describe somebody who believes that wantonly killing unborn children is a moral outrage.
The real 'red in tooth and claw' people in Ireland are the pro-abortionists ... and if any group are to be compared to the pro-gun 'rednecks' as you call them, it is the pro-abortion people ... as they both have the blood of innocent people on their hands.

The very brave decision at the foundation of the Gardai (in the middle of the Civil War) to have an unarmed police force has probably saved thousands of lives (including Gardai themselves) and I feel very proud at the sight of our brave and unarmed police force patrolling our streets..

Perhaps I should use yokel instead.
I object to you applauding the first government in any way.
The police didn't need to be armed as the army ran rampant carrying out atrocities against Republicans.
Plus the penalty for anyone bearing arms was death - Erskine Childers was killed in this way in 1922/3.

Fanny Cradock

MadsL wrote: »

I know a Church Deacon who recently took his concealed carry permit specifically to bring a gun to church to protect the congregation.

Reminds me of this song

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_O9mb9KR9lA

martinedwards

I'm not a fan.

in the US, the #1 home defence weapon is a pump action shot gun.

in the dark, the VERY recognisable double slide sound means that it won't NEED to be fired in 99% of cases.

farmers need shotguns for vermin control.

gun clubs? OK if the weapons are kept in safes at the club, but there is NO REASON for Joe Public to have an assault rifle or a hand gun under the bed.

georgieporgy

mdebets wrote: »

I don't have any other statistics for Switzerland, but not every homeowner has to own a gun, it's just men who did military service, who have their military weapon at home. That means, unlike for example in the US or Canada, the people owning the guns, are highly trained on their weapons and know how to use them. Even then, Switzerland has a 3 times higher gun related deathrate than countries, who have no wide spread gun use.

All 20 year old males are called up for military training in Switzerland and have to keep their weapon at home. They retire around age 30 but may keep the weapon till age 50 if they wish.
The gun death rate in canada (a gun free country) is 50% greater than switzerland. This includes both homicides and suicides. (most of the deaths are actually suicides in both countries) .
I think in Ireland we are going to have abortion as a cure for suicide next year though it's not a very successful antidote in Canada or Switzerland but I think I'm beginning to digress.

JohnMc1

Peregrinus wrote: »

We'd see much more of that, if the US experience is anything to go by.

More often than not areas with the most gun ownership have fewer crimes. What a shock!! Criminals don't like the prospect of being shot. Someone should tell our Minister of "Justice" [or lack of]

J C

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Very well said, JC.

(Can't say I've typed that before)

You never know ... it mightn't be a once off!!:)

J C

Happy Monday wrote: »

Perhaps I should use yokel instead.
I object to you applauding the first government in any way.
The police didn't need to be armed as the army ran rampant carrying out atrocities against Republicans.
Plus the penalty for anyone bearing arms was death - Erskine Childers was killed in this way in 1922/3.

I don't wish to be partisan on the Civil War ... but every government since then has also maintained the Gardai as an unarmed police force ... so the original decision to have the Gardai unarmed was an enlightened and correct one.

Your point about the army chasing down Republicans is valid ... but there were 'two of them in it', when it came to atrocities ... the killing of Collins and Kevin O'Higgins being obvious examples.
In any event, the government didn't make the mistake of having an armed police force as well.
It meant that when the Civil War eventually finished ... it didn't drag on with attaks on the Gardai ... and gave us one of the safest societies on Earth.

Fanny Cradock

J C wrote: »

You never know ... it mightn't be a once off!!:)

You're right! The world is 6,000 years old.

J C

JohnMc1 wrote: »

More often than not areas with the most gun ownership have fewer crimes. What a shock!! Criminals don't like the prospect of being shot. Someone should tell our Minister of "Justice" [or lack of]

With the highest gun ownership on the planet, one of the highest prison populations and 10,000 gun deaths every year ... America doesn't support your proposition.

JohnMc1

J C wrote: »

With the highest gun ownership on the planet, one of the highest prison populations and 10,000 gun deaths every year ... America doesn't support your proposition.

County by County it does. You also have to realize that most of these tragedies have been in States with Gun ban laws in place.

Fanny Cradock

JohnMc1 wrote: »

More often than not areas with the most gun ownership have fewer crimes. What a shock!! Criminals don't like the prospect of being shot. Someone should tell our Minister of "Justice" [or lack of]

JohnMc1 wrote: »

County by County it does. You also have to realize that most of these tragedies have been in States with Gun ban laws in place.

Care to back these claims up?

JohnMc1

http://guardianlv.com/2012/07/pro-gun-cities-have-less-crime/

Fanny Cradock

JohnMc1 wrote: »

http://guardianlv.com/2012/07/pro-gun-cities-have-less-crime/

That article doesn't back your claims up.

JohnMc1

J C wrote: »

Nothing is ever as simple as it seems.
In Ireland we have 300,000 guns ... but they are held by trained people with a day to day need for them ... and who responsibly store them ... and don't use or produce them in inter-personal situations.

The problem in America is the 'gun culture' ... where most people think of themselves as some kind of 'John Wayne' or 'Dirty Harry' ... going out to avenge some imaginary issue ... and shooting first ... and asking questions later!!!

President Obama is right about this as well ... when he says that laws ... and the removal of assault weapons won't solve the problem ... on their own.
... America needs a culture change ... and this is one of the most difficult things to achieve.

I don't envy Obama on this one ... but I pray that he will succeed ... for everyone's sake.

As my article showed Gun bans don't work. You're just de-powering the responsible citizens while empowering the criminals because they will get them anyway they because they don't care about the laws [the sooner society realizes that Criminals don't care about laws the better] I do think people should be able to prove they can handle and maintain a gun. If we have to prove we're competent enough to drive a car we should have to prove we're competent enough to handle a gun.

I think Samuel L. Jackson hit the nail the head. He grew up in the South surrounded by guns and there were no deaths because people were brought up to value life. Sadly the same can't be said about today.

JohnMc1

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

That article doesn't back your claims up.

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/10/foghorn/fbi-2011-crime-stats-violent-crime-drops-3-8/

Here's one for the Obama supporters:

http://clashdaily.com/2012/12/gun-free-chicago-ranks-1-as-the-deadliest-alpha-world-city/

J C

JohnMc1 wrote: »

As my article showed Gun bans don't work. You're just de-powering the responsible citizens while empowering the criminals because they will get them anyway they because they don't care about the laws [the sooner society realizes that Criminals don't care about laws the better] I do think people should be able to prove they can handle and maintain a gun. If we have to prove we're competent enough to drive a car we should have to prove we're competent enough to handle a gun.

Proper training is a requirement for gun ownership in Ireland already.
I don't buy the idea that the answer to armed criminals is armed householders ... it only escalates the 'arms race' ... and makes it likely that the criminal will have a gun, in the first place ... and will use their gun, in the second place.

Armed criminals need to be tackled by armed police ... and not some 'have a go' amateur ... who is more likely to shoot an innocent by-stander ... or be shot himself by the intruder, if the intruder fears for his own life.

JohnMc1 wrote: »

I think Samuel L. Jackson hit the nail the head. He grew up in the South surrounded by guns and there were no deaths because people were brought up to value life. Sadly the same can't be said about today.

Proper values and a culture of the responsible use of guns are vital.
I live in a community where there are probably as many guns as in many parts of America ... yet they are never used or produced in anger ... and everybody is fully trained in their proper use and storage ... and they require them for day to day work and recreation.

JohnMc1

J C wrote: »

Proper training is a requirement for gun ownership in Ireland already.
I don't buy the idea that the answer to armed criminals is armed householders ... it only escalates the 'arms race' ... and makes it likely that the criminal will have a gun, in the first place ... and will use their gun, in the second place.

More than likely the criminals will already have a gun. They do not care about laws. Though if the number armed householders go up it will make a natural deterrent for them. They won't be so quick to break in if they thought the householder was armed.

Armed criminals need to be tackled by armed police ... and not some 'have a go' amateur ... who is more likely to shoot an innocent by-stander ... or be shot himself by the intruder, if the intruder fears for his own life.

Agreed. Sadly in Irish society either the Gardai or their superiors don't have the will or the courage to act on it. Instead they want to pretend its 50+ years ago when there was hardly any crime in the Country.

Proper values and a culture of the responsible use of guns are vital.
I live in a community where there are probably as many guns as in many parts of America ... yet they are never used or produced in anger ... and everybody is fully trained in their proper use and storage ... and they require them for day to day work and recreation.

Agreed. Training in how to handle and store a gun is essential. As I said earlier we need to prove we are competent to drive a car [which can just as deadly in the wrong hands] so why not for a gun? Plus we need to get away from this society of death and violence we're trapped in.

J C

JohnMc1 wrote: »

More than likely the criminals will already have a gun. They do not care about laws. Though if the number armed householders go up it will make a natural deterrent for them. They won't be so quick to break in if they thought the householder was armed.

... if they are armed themselves they will be less likely to care if the householder is armed ... and this is what I mean by the 'arms race' that America seems to have got stuck in.

JohnMc1 wrote: »

Agreed. Sadly in Irish society either the Gardai or their superiors don't have the will or the courage to act on it. Instead they want to pretend its 50+ years ago when there was hardly any crime in the Country.

The Gardai are successfully tackling these guys ... and their primary threat are to other armed criminals ... and not the general population.
Thankfully armed burglars are practically unknown in Ireland.

JohnMc1 wrote: »

Agreed. Training in how to handle and store a gun is essential. As I said earlier we need to prove we are competent to drive a car [which can just as deadly in the wrong hands] so why not for a gun? Plus we need to get away from this society of death and violence we're trapped in.

I agree with you on both points.

mdebets

JohnMc1 wrote: »

More than likely the criminals will already have a gun. They do not care about laws.

That's a misconception. A normal robber, who 'works' in a society that has no armed householders, doesn't need a gun. It would be even stupid for him to carry one, as the sentence if caught would be higher, if he committed an armed robbery than if he committed an unarmed robbery.
He would also need to commit two crimes (getting and carrying a gun, rob a house), which would make it a higher risk for him to be caught.

JohnMc1 wrote: »

Though if the number armed householders go up it will make a natural deterrent for them. They won't be so quick to break in if they thought the householder was armed.

Again a misconception. The robber would not stop working, he would just be better armed, and more willing to use his weapons first. If you were right, there would be very few robberies in the US for example.

JohnMc1 wrote: »

Agreed. Training in how to handle and store a gun is essential. As I said earlier we need to prove we are competent to drive a car [which can just as deadly in the wrong hands] so why not for a gun? Plus we need to get away from this society of death and violence we're trapped in.

Training in how to handle and store a gun is not enough, the householder needs also to be willing to shoot at a person (not just a target disc). If he can't do this, his risk will actually increase by carrying a gun

JohnMc1

J C wrote: »

... if they are armed themselves they will be less likely to care if the householder is armed ... and this is what I mean by the 'arms race' that America seems to have got stuck in.

I see your point. It could be like the Nuclear disarmaments where its speculated certain Countries held on to 1 or two "just in case". There is no feasible way to handle this.

The Gardai are successfully tackling these guys ... and their primary threat are to other armed criminals ... and not the general population.
Thankfully armed burglars are practically unknown in Ireland.

I'm glad to hear that. I do think some of the laws should be changed so they can stay in prison longer. Less than a decade for murder is unacceptable.

I agree with you on both points.

Thanks. Thank You for the good discussion.

Victor

JohnMc1 wrote: »

More often than not areas with the most gun ownership have fewer crimes. What a shock!! Criminals don't like the prospect of being shot. Someone should tell our Minister of "Justice" [or lack of]

Crime is a associated with poverty. If you are poor, you can't afford a gun collection.

doctoremma

Victor wrote: »

Crime is a associated with poverty. If you are poor, you can't afford a gun collection.

And if you're eating crackers to survive, you're unlikely to own a legal firearm for a spot of pheasant shooting if a weekend.

In the UK, gun ownership is higher in rural areas, the epitome of Green England, where Barbour jackets and clay pigeons are de rigeur. Areas with far lower crime rates than inner city Manchester or London.

J C

doctoremma wrote: »

And if you're eating crackers to survive, you're unlikely to own a legal firearm for a spot of pheasant shooting if a weekend.

In the UK, gun ownership is higher in rural areas, the epitome of Green England, where Barbour jackets and clay pigeons are de rigeur. Areas with far lower crime rates than inner city Manchester or London.

You're absolutely correct on this, Emma.

The key issue that is often overlooked is whether there is an actual cause when there is a correlation.
In the case of Rural England, crime rates are lower and this happens to coincide with higher gun ownership ... but the higher gun ownership has no causal link to the lower crime rate ...
... which is probably due to having less criminals living in these areas ... and better general security systems, neighbourhood watches, good community spirit, less poverty, drugs use, etc.

FISMA

martinnew wrote: »

Gun ownership is about 77%.

77% seems high.

Source?

amorphous

Kill a burglar is Okay. Terminate a fetus is bad.

Hypocrite much?:rolleyes:

newmug

amorphous wrote: »

Kill a burglar is Okay. Terminate a fetus is bad.

Hypocrite much?:rolleyes:

Feteous's dont attack you first.

FISMA

amorphous wrote: »

Kill a burglar is Okay. Terminate a fetus is bad.
Hypocrite much?:rolleyes:

Amorphous,
Is the commandment not to kill or not to murder?

Better check what scholars of the Torah/Old Testament have to say.

Well wear to your new throw away account!

BorisBecker

i watched a program from an american news station with presenter John Fadanoid. he had a very good point about how more good people that use guns mean less crime. id recommend watching simply due to the fact there is hard evidence about how guns work in a religious environment

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAQy8v0d_qo

J C

BorisBecker wrote: »

i watched a program from an american news station with presenter John Fadanoid. he had a very good point about how more good people that use guns mean less crime. id recommend watching simply due to the fact there is hard evidence about how guns work in a religious environment

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAQy8v0d_qo

This is a sick joke ... right?
... although in the land of Gerry Springer almost anything is possible!!

Guns don't work 'in a religious environment' ... and are an affront to the comandment not to kill.

It's totally outrageous to take a weapon of death into a Church of God ... and that applies equally to a priest or anybody else!!!
Even in medieval times, churches have always been recognised as places of refuge ... where weaponry could not be carried or used ... but now, in our era of technological savagery, guns are apparently going to be used everywhere, including churches.
If churches are under threat from gunmen ... the place to stop them is at the door with a metal detector ... and armed security, if God forbid, this is necessary at all.

... this video shows the fallacy of 'guns protecting' ... when they rarely do ... and in most inter-personal conflict situations, they greatly increase the danger.
Even if this was a fake video, it still ilustrates why people going around with 'guns at the ready' are so dangerous to themselves and everyone else.
The danger in the scene where the woman 'attacked' the 'minister' was greatly accellerated by the production of the gun by the 'priest' ... all that was needed was to physically restrain the woman ... but producing a gun was totally 'over the top' ... and created the danger that somebody ... indeed many people could have been deliberately (or unintentionally) shot ... and the 'priest' with the gun was by far the greatest danger there ... to himself and everyone else.

... it also illustrates how the American 'arms race' could eventually reach such an outrageous stage ... that some church-goers might be as likely to be shot in church as on the streets!!!:(

... with 10,000 gun deaths every year ... and God knows how many injuries ... America needs to get to grips with it's 'gun culture' ... and only provide guns to people who need them for legitimate activities like hunting, vermin control and sporting use ... and anybody walking around with a gun ready to shoot first and ask questions later ... is part of the problem ... and not part of the solution.

Equally, a society that arms it's police to the point where they look like 'robo-cop' ... is also 'cranking up' the 'arms race' to dangerous proportions.
America needs to take the gun out of society ... and the police also need to play their part ... for their own safety ... as well as everybody elses.

BorisBecker

J C wrote: »

This is a sick joke ... right?
... although in the land of Gerry Springer almost anything is possible!!

nah man, its f**king mega serial.

and guns DO work in a religious environment. how the f**king crikey do you think christians got to the top of the food chain? harsh language? /frosty from aliens

J C

BorisBecker wrote: »

nah man, its f**king mega serial.

and guns DO work in a religious environment. how the f**king crikey do you think christians got to the top of the food chain? harsh language? /frosty from aliens

Christianity is a Faith of love ... which is ultimately stronger than all of the hate and guns in the World.
Have you never heard the sayings that 'he who pursues a vandetta needs to dig two graves' ... and 'he who lives by the sword will die by the sword'!!!
... and this is just as true for those who carry guns for so-called 'self defense' ... and the deaths of hundreds of gangland people all over the World, each year, proves that having a gun on your person won't save you from somebody who really wants to kill you ... and it will often be the reason that you are killed.

All Saved Christians make love ... and not war (in any of its many hateful disguises).

Happy Christmas.:)

tommy2bad

All Saved Christians make love ...

True, just not the homosexual ones they make some kind of evil but feels good thing..

J C

tommy2bad wrote: »

True, just not the homosexual ones they make some kind of evil but feels good thing..

Christian love ... is pure platonic love i.e. not sexual love of any variety ... just kind, considerate and concerned love ... for the welfare, prosperity and Salvation of others.

Run_to_da_hills

No Guns = No Freedom

SATAN WANTS YOUR GUN.!!!

Jesus Is saviour.com.