damp back garden

tsuzmir

just moved in to new place and want to keep pet hens in back garden. the problem is that the garden is constantly fairly damp. could someone suggest a solution to get rid of excess water please? i suppose plants would use up good bit of water and this way the ground would get drier.... am i right?
cheers!

looksee

We would really need a bit more information. What is in the garden at the moment? Is it rough, lawn, what? Are you in a dip or hollow? What kind of soil is it? Is there a watercourse nearby? Is it a new garden (recently built house?)
What kind of growth is there, are there any rushes growing (tufts of tough tube-like leaves, a bit like chives).

If it is recently built there is every possibility that machines have compacted the soil to such an extent that water cannot drain away. There could also be a layer of scrap plastic, blocks and various other builder's rubbish just under the surface. If this is the case you might be able to improve it by just digging and taking out rubbish.

If the soil is heavy clay - fine, sticky, possibly light coloured, not much growth, you will have to improve it with the addition of organic material, or dig it and add top soil if the drainage then seems ok.

If there is good growth of weeds or grass then it probably just needs digging, if there are rushes you will have to do some drainage work as this indicates long term dampness problems.

Give us more information, and a pic if possible, so we can give better advice.

tsuzmir

What is in the garden at the moment? just grass
Are you in a dip or hollow? no
What kind of soil is it? no clue...
Is there a watercourse nearby? no
Is it a new garden (recently built house?) yes, it is new garden

my thinking was: because there is nothing really in the garden, apart from freshly sown grass, there is nothing to use up the water that's in the soil. if i plant some plants, they will start consuming water and the garden will get drier... am i right?

looksee

More grass will certainly improve the situation, and any lawn will be soggy at the moment, there has been a lot of rain. Is it just mucky, or would you see water rising round your foot if you stood on the grass? Since it is all level, tidy and sown there is not a lot of point doing any serious drainage (and there really isn't anywhere to drain to anyway) at the moment.

Try your system, put in a few small trees and shrubs, let the grass grow and see how it looks. You would not put chickens on that grass until next summer anyway, it needs to be well established.

If the builders put down the grass for you there is a fair chance there is compacted clay under a thin layer of soil, so at some stage you might have to re-do it, but I would give it 12 months before making any decisions.

rje66

Plants and grass will not use up excess standing water, no wayeee........

your problem is compaction after construction. as looksee said builder threw a thin layer of soil down and a bit of seed . the easiest way to improve this is to 'raise' up your lawn area, so its higher than neighbours. water will then go to the lowest point. to do this is simple enough, just put a row of bricks/edging where your grass meets paving and put in topsoil on top of old grass. you will need a good bit of soil:eek::eek::eek:

OR

get wellies for the hens;);););)

NIMAN

Might be best waiting until spring/Summer to see how wet it is.

Hardly fair describing your garden as damp, all our gardens are damp after the amount of rain they've had to soak up over the last few months.

Northumbria

Keep the chickens in a run and place the run on some paving flags. Fill the run with bark and leave them to scratch around in it - they should love it. Change the bark every couple of months or it'll become awash with crap. Only let them in the garden as a whole when it's dry.
Chickens will scratch the lawn away anyway, it's not advisable to let them loose in a small garden all the time. I did that in a large garden but had 30 chickens and they destroyed everything - the lawn got scratch away and any greenery was eaten. I got rid of most of them, put them in a run with some bark, reseeded the grass and replanted the garden and only let them out every few days. It's a much better way of doing it - chickens like to dig in bark chippings for worms and grubs. A compost would just turn to mud.

tsuzmir

rje66 wrote: »

your problem is compaction after construction. as looksee said builder threw a thin layer of soil down and a bit of seed . the easiest way to improve this is to 'raise' up your lawn area, so its higher than neighbours. (...)

you are perfectly right, i had a closer look and dug up some soil today. it's like clay and there is enormous amount of rocks and chunks of concrete. the forks would go only approx 3-4 inches deep at some spots because of that. is there any other way of sorting this out than you have suggested, something that could be done at lower cost?

also, the picture attached shows loads of tiny little stones on the surface across whole garden - not sure if that causes any harm, but i never had anything like that in any place i used to live...

pwurple

Yup, subsoil and builders waste all compacted. No real topsoil, drainage will be a pain. People usually don't give a monkeys, glad you do!

Digging french drains could be a long term solution. You can google it for more detail, it is basically digging small trenches every metre or so, filled with gravel and filling over the top with topsoil. It gives the water somewhere to go.

tsuzmir

pwurple wrote: »

Yup, subsoil and builders waste all compacted. No real topsoil, drainage will be a pain. People usually don't give a monkeys, glad you do!

Digging french drains could be a long term solution. You can google it for more detail, it is basically digging small trenches every metre or so, filled with gravel and filling over the top with topsoil. It gives the water somewhere to go.

that's what i was afraid to hear. that involves getting drains connected to the house drainage system, removing large section of cobblestone to get there... i'd rather not do that if possible. i feel that's above my diy skills and cant afford right now to get someone to do it. is there anything else i can do to improve the situation?

looksee

You don't necessarily have to link to the house drains, just channels with stones will create an area where the water can go to as it drains away. You could find the lowest area of the garden (tho it looks pretty flat to me) and dig a bit of a sump to drain to. I suspect if you dig and clear it though that will solve enough problems not to need drainage.

You will have to dig it all over, loosen the clay, remove the rubbish and start again. If there is a decent depth of soil you might be able to move it off while you tackle the subsoil etc, if it is just a thin layer it will just get lost and you will have to get some more.

Really in a new house you are better off to negotiate with the builder to give you something off the price or substitute a bit of other work rather than let them put down a 'lawn'. Like you, we found that out the hard way.

The little stones - looks like there was an aggregate or gravel dump on your garden when they were building. If you rake enough up you will be well towards the drainage! Normally a few small stones are not a problem, but that lot is doing to stop the grass growing and damage your mower.

magicbastarder

judging by the amount of stones in that pic, i suspect that by the time you remove them, there might not be much soil left...

tsuzmir

i think my plan will be to hire rotovator for couple of days, dig the soil up, remove the stones and concrete bits, spread 1 tonne of topsoil (garden size is 6.5m x 11.5m) and go over it with rotovator again. then to improve drainage i'll dig 3 lines along the garden (approx 20-30cm deep) and fill them with gravel and cover with top soil.
what do you think?

looksee

I would do the ditch and gravel bit before putting on the top soil - reading it again that might be what you meant. A tonne of topsoil isn't a lot for that area, but the soil mightn't be too bad when its been churned up a bit.

tsuzmir

looksee wrote: »

A tonne of topsoil isn't a lot for that area, but the soil mightn't be too bad when its been churned up a bit.

oh i know. i've read somewhere that 1 tonne would raise 30sq m by 1 inch. in my case it is rather to 'freshen things up' in the garden, then to raise the level of the surface.
the other thing i was wondering about: would rocks and concrete bits damage the cultivator? or the heavy duty machine should do just fine?

tsuzmir

just back from the garden. the newest findings are: the top layer of soil (20-40cm deep) is wet and like clay with loads of small/-ish stones. under this there is that compacted soil, but i meat it is really, really compacted. it's very difficult to dig, not only because of the presence of the stones. i am now thinking if my plan with hiring cultivator would make sense? how deep would the cultiuvator work? does it make sense to 'fix' let's say 50cm of soil while the rest under that is still compacted? should I rather drill wholes every couple of meteres apart and fill them with grave? or am i just going mad?

rje66

tsuzmir wrote: »

just back from the garden. the newest findings are: the top layer of soil (20-40cm deep) is wet and like clay with loads of small/-ish stones. under this there is that compacted soil, but i meat it is really, really compacted. it's very difficult to dig, not only because of the presence of the stones. i am now thinking if my plan with hiring cultivator would make sense? how deep would the cultiuvator work? does it make sense to 'fix' let's say 50cm of soil while the rest under that is still compacted? should I rather drill wholes every couple of meteres apart and fill them with grave? or am i just going mad?

Some helpful tips.
A rotovator WILL NOT fix this problem. Dont waste your money.
1ton of top soil = appox 9 wheel barrows.
If you do decide to do a bit of digging, do it in dry weather.
Digging holes and filling with gravel. Wont help.
The reason your garden is compacted after construction is that during building ,the areas where the gardens are was used as access for trucks ,teleporters jcs,s etc. So its well compacted. When houses are built ,a thin layer of soil is spread and fence goes up. Job done.
And you end up on boards ..........with a wet garden thread.

tsuzmir

rje66 wrote: »

Some helpful tips.
A rotovator WILL NOT fix this problem. Dont waste your money.
1ton of top soil = appox 9 wheel barrows.
If you do decide to do a bit of digging, do it in dry weather.
Digging holes and filling with gravel. Wont help.
The reason your garden is compacted after construction is that during building ,the areas where the gardens are was used as access for trucks ,teleporters jcs,s etc. So its well compacted. When houses are built ,a thin layer of soil is spread and fence goes up. Job done.
And you end up on boards ..........with a wet garden thread.

if that wouldn't help - what would? any suggestions?

Supercell

I'd be inclined to dig it all up with a fork and shovel and try and pick the biggest stones out. A lot of hard slow work but you would get it done eventually.
Otherwise hire a digger for a day and dig the lot up pick stones as best you can and then break it all up with a mattock or rotavator and rake and reseed in the spring. I did something similar in my back garden last year. Very hard slow work (digging an old cherry tree stump up in the middle was the worst but that's another story), but its done now and I can use the garden for gardening now.

tsuzmir

my newest idea:
as per picture - 3 wholes drilled to approx 2m deep x 20cm wide, filled with sand so the water can filter through + 3 lines of drainage (the closer to back of the garden the deeper - 30-50cm). the 3 lines would be dug up, filled with stones and sand and covered with layer of soil.
this way i would not have to dig up whole garden and the water would drain off the whole surface, i guess... i was thinking this would be cheaper and with similar result as digging the whole garden. any thoughts?

redser7

But how would you drill/dig a 6 foot hole that's only 20 cm wide? Below the topsoil, subsoil will be rock hard, even digging a large hole is hard work in the subsoil. Something like a heavy mattock (chillington hoe) or pick axe would be best and still it would be hard work. Sorry I dont think it's workable like that. Are you after a nice lawn or just some grass for the chucks to eat?

tsuzmir

redser7 wrote: »

But how would you drill/dig a 6 foot hole that's only 20 cm wide?

You can rent those drills (whatever they are professionally called) that are used for putting up fencing. Plus they go with extensions so 2m should not be a problem. I'm after a garden that will be good for chickens and some veggies. I'll probably go for raised beds anyway, but just want a lawn to be dry (chicks will pick up diseases from constantly wet soil)

redser7

Ok. But I wonder is it unnecessary expense. How wet does it get? Do you actually get puddles standing for long? The last year has been so damp. The summer rain never really got a chance to drain. I take care of my lawn but I still have a mass of moss, that's just nature. If it's a new house maybe you haven't had a chance to see how bad it is during a whole (normal) year?
As you want to grow veg it would be a great idea to go with raised beds. Why dont you start with pen and paper and work out your layout. There's no point sorting the whole lawn if you are going to cover half of it with raised beds anyway. These will drain just fine and funnily enough bad drainage in your garden underneath will be a bonus and help your raised beds to not dry out too quick. See what space is left over once you do your layout and then reassess the drainage problem. Consider that you can cover the paths between the beds with wood chip or weed fabric. Just some thoughts ...
oh and chickens will love your crops, so keep them netted

ponddigger

hi .what happens if you reach the water table,jack

looksee

I think you are wasting your time drilling holes if you do not remove the rubbish and break up the compacted sub soil. There really is no easy solution to this, been there, and a pickax is the way to go.

We found lumps of timber, concrete, ridiculous amounts of plastic, ends of cement bags, roof tiles, random plastic pipes etc, soft drink cans and bottles as well as large rocks and packed hard clay when we did a similar lawn.

If you clear it properly you will very likely find you do not need any special drainage at all.

redser7

Sorry just reread this bit ...
"the newest findings are: the top layer of soil (20-40cm deep) is wet and like clay with loads of small/-ish stones. under this there is that compacted soil"
You've gone down almost half a meter and there is no sign of rubbish, just stones. Can you describe just how damp it gets? It might not be as bad as you think. You will get lots of stones in soil.

tsuzmir

redser7 wrote: »

Ok. But I wonder is it unnecessary expense. How wet does it get? Do you actually get puddles standing for long? The last year has been so damp. The summer rain never really got a chance to drain. I take care of my lawn but I still have a mass of moss, that's just nature. If it's a new house maybe you haven't had a chance to see how bad it is during a whole (normal) year?
As you want to grow veg it would be a great idea to go with raised beds. Why dont you start with pen and paper and work out your layout. There's no point sorting the whole lawn if you are going to cover half of it with raised beds anyway. These will drain just fine and funnily enough bad drainage in your garden underneath will be a bonus and help your raised beds to not dry out too quick. See what space is left over once you do your layout and then reassess the drainage problem. Consider that you can cover the paths between the beds with wood chip or weed fabric. Just some thoughts ...
oh and chickens will love your crops, so keep them netted

There's no visible water puddle in the garden, but you can see that It's very wet. And when you walk on it, then you feel the amount of water, which gathers around the shoes. When I dug up a bit of soil to examine it, I nearly drowned in mud/ clay mix. Well, ok, not really, but it was pretty bad. Raised beds - yes, that was the plan for veggies but the chickens cannot live on wet ground.

tsuzmir

redser7 wrote: »

Sorry just reread this bit ...
"the newest findings are: the top layer of soil (20-40cm deep) is wet and like clay with loads of small/-ish stones. under this there is that compacted soil"
You've gone down almost half a meter and there is no sign of rubbish, just stones. Can you describe just how damp it gets? It might not be as bad as you think. You will get lots of stones in soil.

There seem to be enormous amount of stones and bits of concrete but I have also found a bit of rubbish like bits of pallet, plastic bottles, plastic sheets, etc. There wasn't that much of this though. But a lot of stones are larger than a fist and especially below 50cm the smaller stones are so compacted with soil that it was really difficult to even use a digging fork. It's really top soil that's very wet and moderately loose, subsoil is wet and very compacted.

redser7

Well dont despair. It would be a big job to turn it around and an expensive one. But try be creative because I get the impression you dont have the cash, time or expertise to dig the whole plot out and fill it with good topsoil and a drainage system. You want to grow veg and keep chickens. You want to deal with the damp as it's not good for the chickens.
I assume you want to move the run around so they have fresh grass to eat. Forget the grass and moving them around. Map out your veg garden/raised beds first and plan to grow lots of leafy salad to feed the chucks. 99 cent worth of seed could give you 1000 plants. If you're up to it you can feed the chucks with salad leaves. Give them a permenant home with a saw dust/wood chip floor. They love slugs so chuck any in you come across. Let them out now and again but protect any veg you want to keep for youself.

magicbastarder

my concern would be that even if you could open up the soil structure, that the runoff from your neighbours' gardens would simply pour in instead.

tsuzmir

ponddigger wrote: »

hi .what happens if you reach the water table,jack

excellent question, but i dont know. that wasn't part of the plan any suggestions anyone?

magicbastarder

you get a feee pond?

tsuzmir

redser7 wrote: »

I get the impression you dont have the cash, time or expertise to dig the whole plot out and fill it with good topsoil and a drainage system.

100% right, but i'd still give it a go if i find a solution i can manage

redser7 wrote: »

You want to grow veg and keep chickens. You want to deal with the damp as it's not good for the chickens.
I assume you want to move the run around so they have fresh grass to eat. Forget the grass and moving them around. Map out your veg garden/raised beds first and plan to grow lots of leafy salad to feed the chucks. 99 cent worth of seed could give you 1000 plants. If you're up to it you can feed the chucks with salad leaves. Give them a permenant home with a saw dust/wood chip floor. They love slugs so chuck any in you come across. Let them out now and again but protect any veg you want to keep for youself.

again, you're 100%. this is exactly what i want to do, but there is sill a problem with wet ground. they'll pick up diseases if they walk constantly on wet ground. i cant compensate this by using wood chips etc in their run because i'll end up with even bigget mess, plus soaked wood/bark chips will not be healthy either

tsuzmir

magicbastarder wrote: »

you get a feee pond?

not exactly what i need right now :rolleyes:

tsuzmir

magicbastarder wrote: »

my concern would be that even if you could open up the soil structure, that the runoff from your neighbours' gardens would simply pour in instead.

good thinking...
but i'm completely lost now and absolutely no idea what to do....

redser7

Not fobbing you off but you should also raise your problem on a chicken keeping forum. Not sure about boards but this site in the UK is very active and helpful. They have a chicken section ...
http://www.growfruitandveg.co.uk/grapevine/rule-roost/

I mean chickens have always and still do live outdoors too and in all sorts of weather, maybe the issue is not as bad as you think?

spodoinkle

looksee wrote: »

If there is good growth of weeds or grass then it probably just needs digging, if there are rushes you will have to do some drainage work as this indicates long term dampness problems.

.

Sorry to thread jack here but we have this problem in our back 'garden'. We are only renting but have been there for a year and it has never fully dryed out, there are rushes as well. Would french drains sort this?

redser7

If you are only renting I wouldn't even go there It's A LOT of work

tsuzmir

redser7 wrote: »

Not fobbing you off but you should also raise your problem on a chicken keeping forum. Not sure about boards but this site in the UK is very active and helpful. They have a chicken section ...
http://www.growfruitandveg.co.uk/grapevine/rule-roost/

I mean chickens have always and still do live outdoors too and in all sorts of weather, maybe the issue is not as bad as you think?

redser7, i've already learned from different sources that the ground need to be dryer than mine in order to keep healthy and happy chickens, so it's really down to getting the garden sorted one way or the other.
but i did not come across that formu yet, so that will be very handy, thanks!

redser7

Sorry i cant help anymore, best of luck. They're a great bunch over there and can maybe offer different advice on sorting the lawn too. You should join up.

tsuzmir

redser7 wrote: »

Sorry i cant help anymore, best of luck. They're a great bunch over there and can maybe offer different advice on sorting the lawn too. You should join up.

thanks for all the advice!