Finally! Action on X.

mud

The government announced today that they will legislate for abortion in the new year.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/threat-of-suicide-will-be-grounds-for-abortion-3331201.html

Mint Sauce

About flippin time.

<Awaits rush to thread>

ScumLord

But where do they stand on miniature American flags?

summerskin

ScumLord wrote: »

But where do they stand on miniature American flags?

in miniature american gardens?

Morag

Finally it only took 21 years, 2 referendum, EU Human Right high court rulings, pressure from the UN and international pressure of the death of Savita and it will fall short of protecting the Health of women as outlined by the UN.

Dravokivich

Morag wrote: »

Finally it only took 21 years, 2 referendum, EU Human Right high court rulings, pressure from the UN and international pressure of the death of Savita and it will fall short of protecting the Health of women as outlined by the UN.

Finally? They've given themselves 12 months to propose it.

ahnowbrowncow

Thread disappoints, I thought this was going to be about some porn on a station called X.

Celly Smunt

Does this mean the government actually WILL cave in to pressure? :eek::eek:

Rabidlamb

Finally, Rabidlamb's Backyard Abortions will see the light of day, look at me now Dragons Den, who's out now !!!

WoollyRedHat

Morag wrote: »

Finally it only took 21 years, 2 referendum, EU Human Right high court rulings, pressure from the UN and international pressure of the death of Savita and it will fall short of protecting the Health of women as outlined by the UN.

Don't forget a Supreme Court Ruling. The Supreme Court, sure who the feck are they to be making decisions, pah.

joydivision

Why does savitta keep getting brought up . The husband may have got the story wrong according to his representitive . Nothing has been proven .
Stop using her to campaign for abortions .
There I said it .

Celly Smunt

joydivision wrote: »

Why does savitta keep getting brought up . The husband may have got the story wrong according to his representitive . Nothing has been proven .
Stop using her to campaign for abortions .
There I said it .

ok,so let's forget her for now.We still need a campaign for abortions.

diamondp

we shudnt have to campaign for abortions it should be a choice

Morag

pmcmahon wrote: »

ok,so let's forget her for now.We still need a campaign for abortions.

you mean one which will repeal the 8th amendment?

http://www.irishchoicenetwork.com/1/post/2012/12/joint-statement-pro-choice-groups-welcome-government-announcement-and-call-for-referendum.html

GalwayGuy2

Read the part that makes a distinction between life and health.

Morag

GalwayGuy2 wrote: »

Read the part that makes a distinction between life and health.

Yup, the legislation won't cover protection of health, rape, incest or fetal fatal abnormalities, it won't legislate for most of the 12 women who everyday travel to the UK from Ireland for abortions.

tritium

Pulls up chair....

Grabs popcorn.....

Waits for the whackos on both extremes who will present their position as fact

spank_inferno

Only 2 decades too late.

Still though, a step in the right direction.

eviltwin

I don't know why people think this is a good thing, okay its a step in the right direction but its only because Ireland have been forced to and I have no doubt the legislation will only allow for abortion in the most extreme of circumstances. Its not enough.

As Morag said it still doesn't address the vast majority of women who will still be forced to go abroad and have no help or support when they come back home.

squod

Hope it breaks the government.

curlzy

tritium wrote: »

Waits for the whackos on both extremes who will present their position as fact

Makes me sad that me having full rights in regard to my fertility and a right to end a pregnancy I don't want, could be seen as "extreme".

curlzy

I find this very interesting: http://worldabortionlaws.com/map/

Mardy Bum

curlzy wrote: »

I find this very interesting: http://worldabortionlaws.com/map/

No wonder Youth Defence gets so much money. Ireland is about the only developed country right wing religious nut jobs can plough their money.

ScumLord

curlzy wrote: »

Makes me sad that me having full rights in regard to my fertility and a right to end a pregnancy I don't want, could be seen as "extreme".

I think there's a fear there that women will use abortions as a form of contraception. Which wouldn't be good for the woman, although I doubt women get to the abortion stage more than once or twice in their lives.

We wouldn't want to see woman having too many abortions as that could also be unhealthy for mind and body.

All these kind of concerns can be addressed in the way the system is set up but the problem with us Irish is we generally don't think about things rationally, we go straight to extremes. "If abortions are legal women will go out and get pregnant just so they can have an abortion", "If drugs are made legal they'll be selling them in schools and everyone will be out of their minds".

Mardy Bum

ScumLord wrote: »

I think there's a fear there that women will use abortions as a form of contraception. Which wouldn't be good for the woman, although I doubt women get to the abortion stage more than once or twice in their lives.

We wouldn't want to see woman having too many abortions as that could also be unhealthy for mind and body.

You are correct. Its in the same vein of argument that if we had no religions people would start murdering people. Arguing with pro lifers is like arguing with religious people. Logic goes out the window.

joydivision

Mardy Bum wrote: »

You are correct. Its in the same vein of argument that if we had no religions people would start murdering people. Arguing with pro lifers is like arguing with religious people. Logic goes out the window.

Both sides can be a bit mad in fairness .

tunedout

Euthanasia for all next.

Sarky

ScumLord wrote: »

I think there's a fear there that women will use abortions as a form of contraception. Which wouldn't be good for the woman, although I doubt women get to the abortion stage more than once or twice in their lives.

We wouldn't want to see woman having too many abortions as that could also be unhealthy for mind and body.

Women won't suddenly drop all the other forms of contraception in favour of abortion. It's a very stupid fear to be honest, and I wouldn't trust anyone who puts it forth with a straight face. I very much doubt anyone would pick abortion as a form of contraception in preference of anything else. The option should be available for when it's necessary. This legislation will help achieve that goal. It will save lives. It's not nearly enough, because it fails to account for many other factors as others have pointed out above, and it's 20 years late thanks to belligerent pro-life lobbies and 7 utterly spineless governments, but it's a start. And I for one am glad it's finally happening.

KerranJast

eviltwin wrote: »

I don't know why people think this is a good thing, okay its a step in the right direction but its only because Ireland have been forced to and I have no doubt the legislation will only allow for abortion in the most extreme of circumstances. Its not enough.

As Morag said it still doesn't address the vast majority of women who will still be forced to go abroad and have no help or support when they come back home.

A recent Red C Poll showed that 2/3s of the public remain opposed to "on demand" abortion so that's not surprising.

eviltwin

KerranJast wrote: »

A recent Red C Poll showed that 2/3s of the public remain opposed to "on demand" abortion so that's not surprising.

Thats a shame because its not stopping abortion happening, its just happening outside our borders.

GalwayGuy2

Yup, the legislation won't cover protection of health, rape, incest or fetal fatal abnormalities, it won't legislate for most of the 12 women who everyday travel to the UK from Ireland for abortions.

I more meant it could be used at the doctors interpretation of the case.

I think there's a fear there that women will use abortions as a form of contraception.

Would you go through the pain, cramps and bleeding rather than use a condom? Not to mention the emotional, and social, side of getting an abortion...

No wonder Youth Defence gets so much money. Ireland is about the only developed country right wing religious nut jobs can plough their money.

We have our own religious nuts to worry about as well.

Thomas20

eviltwin wrote: »

Thats a shame because its not stopping abortion happening, its just happening outside our borders.

Yes it is, Ireland has the highest birth rate in Europe and the main reason is obvious.

GalwayGuy2

Yes it is, Ireland has the highest birth rate in Europe and the main reason is obvious.

A lack of sexual education.

shruikan2553

Anyone who thinks that abortion is a form of contraception and thinks "ah sure if I get pregnant Ill just have an abortion" probably shouldnt be having children anyway.

Im grabbing popcorn for the ****storm we'll see on TV coming up to it

eviltwin

Thomas20 wrote: »

Yes it is, Ireland has the highest birth rate in Europe and the main reason is obvious.

I think its a bit more complex than no abortion.

ScumLord

Thomas20 wrote: »

Yes it is, Ireland has the highest birth rate in Europe and the main reason is obvious.

It's not exactly a bad thing we have a high birth rate. Most western countries have low birth rates and it's causing big problems for them. The island of Ireland could support many more people and even when young people leave the country it has other benefits, Irelands very much an internationally recognised country even though we don't do anything all that special other than produce people.

Difference Engine

It's about time we faced up to this issue and actually dealt with it properly. Like unemployment and bankruptcy, we have just been happy to ship the problem over to England and pretend its not happening.

Min

GalwayGuy2 wrote: »

A lack of sexual education.

The youngest population in Europe.

Min

Difference Engine wrote: »

It's about time we faced up to this issue and actually dealt with it properly. Like unemployment and bankruptcy, we have just been happy to ship the problem over to England and pretend its not happening.

It looks like they may have messed up by including suicide.

Captain Graphite

Legislation on the X case is to be welcomed, obviously. But will this legislation do anything at all to help women like Savita Halappanavar? I can understand what Kathleen Lynch meant when she said "what we are about to do is far too narrow" in the Dáil yersterday.

joydivision wrote: »

Both sides can be a bit mad in fairness .

Yeah, damn all those extremist pro-choice groups that get funding from nutjob groups in America to launch dishonest and obnoxious billboard campaigns, all with the aim of forcing women to have abortions......

curlzy wrote: »

I find this very interesting: http://worldabortionlaws.com/map/

Saudi Arabia has more liberal abortion laws than us. That's fúcking depressing.

PopePalpatine

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Arguing with pro lifers is like arguing with religious people.

Usually they're the same thing.

joydivision wrote: »

Both sides can be a bit mad in fairness .

Who are the pro-choice extremists? Maybe there could be people out there who want a 2-child-per-couple policy implemented, but I'm guessing they're few and far between.

Min

Captain Graphite wrote: »

Legislation on the X case is to be welcomed, obviously. But will this legislation do anything at all to help women like Savita Halappanavar? I can understand what Kathleen Lynch meant when she said "what we are about to do is far too narrow" in the Dáil yersterday.


Yeah, damn all those extremist pro-choice groups that get funding from nutjob groups in America to launch dishonest and obnoxious billboard campaigns, all with the aim of forcing women to have abortions......



Saudi Arabia has more liberal abortion laws than us. That's fúcking depressing.

Abortion doesn't cure E Coli ESBL which Savita had.

Abortion is not a known cure for suicide either.

Difference Engine

Min wrote: »

It looks like they may have messed up by including suicide.

Instead of legislating for the narrowest set of factors possible, and then only when forced, they should develop a proper broad system that covers all women faced with this situation in Ireland.

It doesn't necessarily have to mean abortions on demand, just a process that will result in the best possible outcome for the woman's health. Adoption may prove to be less traumatic than abortion for one woman but not another for example.

We can't legislate for every single case. The best we can do is make sure women have the proper medical/counselling support and all the options available to them. If, after all of that, they still opt for abortion then I think most people can accept that.

The state will have done all it can for both the mother and unborn child.

robman60

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Usually they're the same thing.

In my experience there is very little correlation between being religious and being pro-life. Religious people tend to be interviewed when things like this come to the surface, but there is a large cohort of people (going by my own experiences) who aren't religious but recognise that a child has a right to life.

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Who are the pro-choice extremists? Maybe there could be people out there who want a 2-child-per-couple policy implemented, but I'm guessing they're few and far between.

Would you not consider it extreme that a child with Downs Syndrome can be aborted until birth in the UK? I certainly would.

Biggins

Difference Engine wrote: »

Instead of legislating for the narrowest set of factors possible, and then only when forced, they should develop a proper broad system that covers all women faced with this situation in Ireland.

It doesn't necessarily have to mean abortions on demand, just a process that will result in the best possible outcome for the woman's health. Adoption may prove to be less traumatic than abortion for one woman but not another for example.

We can't legislate for every single case. The best we can do is make sure women have the proper medical/counselling support and all the options available to them. If, after all of that, they still opt for abortion then I think most people can accept that...

Most people can except the above I think (besides the religious fanatics) - except for three main useless political parties who continuously don't do sensible things sadly.
They are only here now to drag their heels for decades after just passing the buck for so long, screw the people, lie to them, stab them in the back, rob them of their money by every method possible and do as little as possible while collecting their massive wages, perks and pensions.

Min

Difference Engine wrote: »

Instead of legislating for the narrowest set of factors possible, and then only when forced, they should develop a proper broad system that covers all women faced with this situation in Ireland.

It doesn't necessarily have to mean abortions on demand, just a process that will result in the best possible outcome for the woman's health. Adoption may prove to be less traumatic than abortion for one woman but not another for example.

We can't legislate for every single case. The best we can do is make sure women have the proper medical/counselling support and all the options available to them. If, after all of that, they still opt for abortion then I think most people can accept that.

The state will have done all it can for both the mother and unborn child.

Being suicidal is a mental health issue, not a pregnancy issue, an abortion doesn't cure mental illness.
People with suicidal feelings need professional help from experts in the area of mental illness, not a gynaecologist or an obstetrician.

Difference Engine

Min wrote: »

Being suicidal is a mental health issue, not a pregnancy issue, an abortion doesn't cure mental illness.
People with suicidal feelings need professional help from experts in the area of mental illness, not a gynaecologist or an obstetrician.

That's exactly what I mean. Mental health professionals should be part of that strategy.

If an abortion isn't the appropriate solution, and it often won't be, women need to have access to the services that will provide the best possible solution for them. That could be anything from adoption services to social care support, counselling or parenting classes. What my point is that this should be integrated and part of a well thought out strategy that is easily accessible to anyone under the public healthcare system.

We do have to accept though that abortion may be necessary sometimes. Not as a first resort or on demand, but as an informed choice after all other options have been explored.

I would much prefer if we put the time and resources that is put into this debate ( and that is quite considerable) into preventing the situation arising in the first place. That's the one thing both sides will agree on. No women wants to have to have an abortion.

Better sex education etc will reduce the instances where women will feel they need abortions but we do have to accept they will arise and plan properly for them.

Biggins

Min wrote: »

Being suicidal is a mental health issue, not a pregnancy issue, an abortion doesn't cure mental illness.
People with suicidal feelings need professional help from experts in the area of mental illness, not a gynaecologist or an obstetrician.

...But the causes of that 'mental health issue' need to be addressed!
If one of the eventual solutions to that issue has to be an abortion, so be it.

Min

Biggins wrote: »

...But the causes of that 'mental health issue' need to be addressed!
If one of the eventual solutions to that issue has to be an abortion, so be it.

Mental health care is what is needed, no evidence abortion is a mental health cure.
This solution you talk about is a myth.

One of the national maternity hospitals have said they never experienced a woman who was suicidal and needed an abortion as a cure.

Cosmicfox

It's about time. Doesn't go far enough though, instances of pregnancy from rape and incest really need to be looked at as well.

Biggins

Min wrote: »

Mental health care is what is needed, no evidence abortion is a mental health cure.

I'd like to see your evidence that it don't totally help in cases please.