Salted roads

Thought I'd start a new thread for this because I wasn't finished ranting in first time buyer thread

Here's a few reasons why I disagree with road salting;

http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/the_green_lantern/2010/02/salting_the_earth.html

http://onlinepubs.trb.org/onlinepubs/sr/sr235/069-082.pdf

spaceHopper

It’s all about scale, we have very little snow compared to the countries listed in the two links, it makes very little sense to have snowploughs on standby for one two weeks of snow a year, two years ago was 20 to 50 year event. The amount of salt we use would only be a fraction of what colder countries use who would also have to do more ploughing as they get more snow that salt could handle. Also Donegal gets hard frosts that need salt you can't plough frost off the road.

Aidan_M_M

spaceHopper wrote: »

It’s all about scale, we have very little snow compared to the countries listed in the two links, it makes very little sense to have snowploughs on standby for one two weeks of snow a year, two years ago was 20 to 50 year event. The amount of salt we use would only be a fraction of what colder countries use who would also have to do more ploughing as they get more snow that salt could handle. Also Donegal gets hard frosts that need salt you can't plough frost off the road.

I agree 100%. And any car after the mid 90s seems to stand up to the salt pretty well. My winter drive is a '72 and the salt hasn't made it rusty... Nor my 02 van, which is ALWAYS out in the elements.

Grand I'm not arguing the effectiveness anymore, fair points. Stone chip, power hoses and plastic panels will save chassis' certainly.
I still disagree with the practice.
Since I started the rant I realise that there's no environmentally sound practice to substitute in it's place.
The unrealistic expectations of shovels and adaptive driving are perhaps too much burden for mass motorists. I would rather this wasn't the case and feel the presented solution not good enough either.

2 stroke

There is an alternative to salt, winter tyres.
The roads where I live are rarely salted. Every year I see cars & 4x4s rolled over where they go from salted to unsalted roads, yet I rarely lose traction. Salt is corosive, if we want salted roads, we should be asking for plastic cars.

Snowploughs should be maintained & kept on standby for dealing with snow and possibly some salt spread at junctions, but salting miles of motorway is rediculous.

Most would argue that there's no point in using winter tyres for a few weeks a year. I think it that's the attitude then those should stick to winter tyres all year round rather than vice versa.

2 stroke

A few weeks? I use them november to end of march. Iirc we had frosty roads in may 2012. Mine outperform summer tyres at temp below 7°C and have excelent grip in the wet. In irish weather you'd be better off saying that it wasn't worth fitting summer tires for a few weeks of the year.

Del2005

2 stroke wrote: »

There is an alternative to salt, winter tyres.
The roads where I live are rarely salted. Every year I see cars & 4x4s rolled over where they go from salted to unsalted roads, yet I rarely lose traction.

Salt is used for clearing ice, winter tyres can't grip on ice. The only way to get grip on ice is chains or studded tyres. Winter tyres have better grip on cold, damp roads due to the softer rubber used. Winter tyres are better on snow than normal tyres but not as good as proper mud&snow tyres, which are useless for the majority of the time in Ireland.

The 4x4s roll over because their drivers are idiots. They think that just because they have drive to 4 wheels they can go anywhere, even thought they are using road tyres as proper off road tyres are noisy and use more fuel, and forget that stopping is more important than going.

2 stroke wrote: »

Salt is corosive, if we want salted roads, we should be asking for plastic cars.

We salt our roads to prevent accidents, who cares if a car gets slightly more rusty.

Del2005

Del2005 wrote: »

We salt our roads to prevent accidents, who cares if a car gets slightly more rusty.

Those who would rather not prescribe to disposable culture and/or feel that polluting the roadside is not an adequate solution.

Hands up anyone who's rolled two cars?

If we salinate the fresh water and then put higher demands on the remaining stocks to irrigate the salt off the soil we've salted...see a pattern emerging?

Odelay

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

Most would argue that there's no point in using winter tyres for a few weeks a year. I think it that's the attitude then those should stick to winter tyres all year round rather than vice versa.

Winter tyres suck, I have them on my car, increased noise, higher fuel consumption, worse handling. But I put them on every year. They are not "magic" the roads also need to be salted. I would NEVER consider using them all year around, not a good suggestion!

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

Those who would rather not prescribe to disposable culture and/or feel that polluting the roadside is not an adequate solution.

Hands up anyone who's rolled two cars?

I have not rolled my car even or know someone that has, however I can see people that have had serious accidents, and know of two that are still receiving medical therapy 5 years later, both low speed collisions caused by ice. 5 years later! As for "disposable culture" because of rust, well safe to say that in both cases the cars were written off, all for the need of salt.

I'm not saying that every wee boreen needs to be salted but motorways and major roads, yes without question.

Don't they salt even in Sweden and Austria where they use winter tires?

kirving

I take it you have an electric car, since you seem to care so much about the environment?

Yes, salt is bad for the local water supply, and it's not good for the inderside of cars, but it's all about practicality, and cost.

Disposable culture? A lot more cars would be sisposed of if we didn't use salt.

Del2005

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

Those who would rather not prescribe to disposable culture and/or feel that polluting the roadside is not an adequate solution.

Hands up anyone who's rolled two cars?

Is wrecking loads of cars not more damaging to the environment than a bit of salt? Oil is just as bad as salt, so not salting the roads would result in oil polluting the road side at least the salt can be diluted by the copus rain we get oil can't.

I have to keep both hands down as I've never rolled a car, have you? And what has it got to do with salting roads.

spaceHopper

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

Those who would rather not prescribe to disposable culture and/or feel that polluting the roadside is not an adequate solution.

Hands up anyone who's rolled two cars?

I did park in a didtch once due to 10% sheet ice and 90% driver error

They salt roads worldwide.
I wasn't suggesting this was just a local issue. Part of the driving test in Scandinavia requires the applicants to be capable to control a car on ice and while drifting.

I don't have an electric car, they're not ecological yet imo. The energy spent in the production of their components far out reaches the combustion engine also the integration of so many minute components make the expense of recycling them prohibitive. Whereas the combustion engine can be melted down and recast; batteries are much more difficult to dismantle and re-condition. What most people fail to consider also is that only 30% of our (Ireland) night-time energy demands are generated off renewables so for the major part the clean emission of an electric car exhaust is substituted for a chimney stack off an incinerator miles down the road. Fast charge points use 63amps to charge a 12v battery bank...I completely fail to appreciate that logic.

Wrecking cars is also bad for the environment I have no argument with that, I was implying that it's a mistake people only make once thus implying they could potentially not make it at all with due consideration.

No I have not rolled a car, I slow down when in doubt.

I see practicality and cost in the process of catering for the needs of future generations where we have the resources to provide for their needs unsquandered. As the population continues to bloom as it does agriculture, water and energy are going to be much more valuable commodities. These may seem like hippy notions but I think 50 -75 years more at the rate we're going and it'll be highly relevant.

60% of the salt produced worldwide is spread on roads and by proxy the agriculture. This isn't a problem for anyone else? Fair enough I'll get back in my box.

paddyp

Why not ask your local council. When met eireann get the forecast wrong and the gritting trucks don't go out there are almost always serious accidents.
In the 3 days where we were waiting for the grit ships to arrive our local panel beater built up a backlog of six months work. He also has the garda recovery contract and the recovery truck was on the road 24/7 he's still seeing work from it crushed wings doors bumpers.
The major problem here is a cultural one if you get a hole in your sill in europe you get it plated up and painted in Ireland you scrap the car often with a government grant to do so.
I have a friend that works for BMW Hamburg he says the staff car park is full of 80s and 90s cars theres no question of scrapping something when it rusts or the engine or gearbox goes you repair it.
In Denmark vehicle registration tax is so high that 1980's cars that would be 200 euro here make thousands the result being that everything is repaired and repair shops are economical.

2 stroke

Del2005 wrote: »

Salt is used for clearing ice, winter tyres can't grip on ice. The only way to get grip on ice is chains or studded tyres. Winter tyres have better grip on cold, damp roads due to the softer rubber used. Winter tyres are better on snow than normal tyres but not as good as proper mud&snow tyres, which are useless for the majority of the time in Ireland.

The 4x4s roll over because their drivers are idiots. They think that just because they have drive to 4 wheels they can go anywhere, even thought they are using road tyres as proper off road tyres are noisy and use more fuel, and forget that stopping is more important than going.



We salt our roads to prevent accidents, who cares if a car gets slightly more rusty.

I agree sumwat with the idiot comment. Many locals around here drive 4x4s mainly due to the winter conditions/unsalted roads. Im convinced that if they spent some of their money on winter tyres instead of fancy jeeps, they would be safer.
I dont agree with you other comments. Chains are for snow, as I think, are studded tyres. With winter tyres my car has much better grip and roadholding on icy roads. I'm sick of being stuck behind idiots doing 10 mph, when I know I can do 30 and have 100 miles to drive.
If you only keep your car a couple of years from new, you probably only get a little rust, but I'm a keeper. That salt gets in everywhere, not just cosmetic damage but eating joints, bushings and seals. I've been in australia and was amazed at the condition of vehicles with .5million k on the clocks and its not that it didnt rain where I was.