Exposing Myths - a review of sorts

ROK ON

A few months back I bought a Ti frame second hand that was advertised on this site - a Van Nicolas.
Lovely looking bike.

Deciding that I wanted to have a change from Shimano Ultegra SL I decided to go for SRAM.

I picked up a mix of Red and Rival parts.

During the week Holyboy of BeeCycles put the bike together for me. Between yesterday and today I have put in 8 hours on largely unchallenging terrain around Kildare and Wicklow.

A review.

I get the impression that Campag is for the fashionistas, Shimano formthe feeds and SRAM for the cool kids. I had high expectations.

Firstly as everyone says about shifting on SRAM, it is very precise. Yep - I concur. It also only takes a short period of time to get used to the shifting.

Everything else is sun par IMHO. SRAM red brifters. By jaysus they feel horrible. There is no real hood to speak of relative to Shimano or indeed Campag. Furthermore I now know where the massive weight saving comes from - the seem extraordinarily brittle. When shifting it feels as if the shifter could literally snap at any minute.
SRAM rival brakes. Not confidence inspiring. Spongy with pretty poor stopping power relative to Ultegra.

Now to the bike. It looks beautiful. But this is a Ti frame - I had heard so much about this wonder material. High expectations.
200k done over two days. It's comfortable yes, but not extraordinarily so.
I have three other bikes:
Dolan Hercules - stupidly comfortable. Like cycling a big spongy flexy coach. If I had to do a flat Audax in the morning this would be the bike. It is a cheap heavy flexy carbon frame.
Kuota Kebel - can be stiff, but climbs very well and on good roads descends and corners beautifully. When you turn the cranks the bike eats the road - of all the bikes I have this has the best power transfer by a long way.
Orbea Aqua - an alu Orbea. Heavy but I have done some serious distance in crap weather on this bike. Took me a while to get used to but I like it a lot now.

Versus these the Van Nicolas is comfy but not as comfy as the Dolan. Power transfer is very poor - the bike takes a long time to react - it's sort of like having to get warmed up - a few revolutions of the pedals are necessary to get going at all.

I think that most folk when they but a bike are loath to give an honest appraisal of it in terms of performance and comfort.

I will continue to ride the Ti frame over Christmas. Hopefully it grows on me, but I have to say that the experience thus far flatters to deceive. Underwhelming.

Coronal

Interesting. I know what you mean about the brittle feeling of SRAM, but I do find the hoods comfortable (small hands). Out of interest, what model van Nicholas is it? One of the touring bikes, or a race version?

Jawgap

I've a SRAM equipped Ti Frame (Sabbath Silk Road) and have to say that I love it.

In the 2 years and 3 months I've had this bike I've put over 20,000km through it and it still looks great - with the exception of one or two of the decals - but the metal itself is still as gorgeous as it was the day I got it.

I know what you mean about the SRAM shifters they do feel brittle but the shifters have held up well - at this stage I've gone through about 8 chains, a rear DR and front DR, a saddle, handlebar tape, a set of wheels and about 5 sets of tyres but the shifters still feel crisp. The only time I had to replace a SRAM shifter is on another bike when I let it fall! The hoods - apparently - are based on the design of the grip on the control column of fighter jets!

Comfort-wise, I'd kind of agree with you. The Sabbath is very comfy, but power transfer is pretty mushy compared to carbon fibre - it's a comfy bike for a long day in the saddle and I find it fast, but it doesn't accelerate well. The big difference I've noticed, though, is in climbing - I've found it's an absolute joy on a stiff gradient and I'd climb all day on it.

On descents it's pretty good but I have found it ponderous on fast, twisty roads. Flat out bumpy descents are easy enough to tackle on it.

CaoimH_in

SRAM is the only chap for those with small hands tbh. They're perfect for me. I did miss the chunky hood top found on Shimanos, but I just got used to what the SRAM offered instead. Also, I have Force brakes and I find them amazing.

I don't think I'd ever buy a TI frame. It's a lot of money that I really can't justify.

doozerie

ROK ON wrote:

I get the impression that Campag is for the fashionistas, Shimano formthe feeds and SRAM for the cool kids.

That, or some variation on that, is a view that is often expressed but personally I think it's simplistic nonsense. People like different things from different groupsets, if any one of them was genuinely far superior to the other two or offered everything that everyone wanted, the others would go out of favour/business pretty quickly. Choice is good.

As for titanium, I really like my Enigma Eclipse. It's not as stiff as my carbon bike but it handles well and is very comfortable. I considerate it my luxury "winter bike", in reality it's on a par with my carbon in many respects, but different. Much like groupsets I find I like different things in my two frames and I'm not sure a single frame could combine everything good about both. My old steel frame, old and battered as it is, also has strong points too, as had my aluminium frame - I've yet to be convinced that any single frame material is "the best", for my modest needs anyway.

Wibbs

I'd say one of the big problems with trying to compare frame materials is the build and design of the individual frame concerned can make a huge difference. The "steel is heavy" "TI is soft/comfortable" "Carbon is stiff and dead" ideas are very vague and can have an element of preconceptions about them. Even when all you could get pretty much were steel frames they could vary a lot, even with the same tubeset. I've ridden a few Columbus SL frames and some were stiff, some were floppy. There wasn't much in it, but it was there. Some were relaxed, some were as twitchy as hell.

You can build a steel bike that's as stiff as most CF frames. The ones like Pegorettis with oversize stays spring to mind and built up they can be lighter than a helluva lot of the off the peg light CF bikes(mad money mind you). If you ever get the chance to throw your leg over one and you're used to carbon you'll be surprised how well one transfers power.

Years ago I tried a Ti frame whose name escapes and it was really stiff, near to the point of being uncomfortable like some cheapo aluminium frames. I've only ridden a few CF frames and each one felt a little different.

CF is probably the most tuneable of all frame materials. The possibilities are endless depending on layups and resins and you could make a "soft" forgiving frame outa the stuff, it's just unlikely to sell so well. Though I'd say the touring guys and gals might dig a near bombproof comfortable and relaxed frame that you could repair "in the field" with epoxy and CF sheeting.

TL;DR, material choice is just one aspect, tube diameter, length, design and frame angles are just as big an issue. Plus wheels and tyres can make a helluva difference to the overall feel of a bike regardless of the material. I remember upgrading a crankset and certainly noticed the difference in power transfer(the previous was in dire need of Viagra).

CaoimH_in wrote:

I don't think I'd ever buy a TI frame. It's a lot of money that I really can't justify.

Pricey alright C. I think if you were of a mind that you wanted a custom "lifetime bike" it might be on the radar alright. Their longevity compared to other materials is a bonus in that case.

ROK ON

Thanks for the comments. I wanted to share an experience so to speak.

The high points to which I have neglected;

The frame Feels very light - I haven't weight it but it surprised the he'll out of me when I first picked it up. It will be interesting to see what it is like on a hilly course - the advantage of lightness could well be counteracted by the poor power transfer.
Ti - great winter bike. Far easier to clean relative to carbon.

SRAM - shifting in the drops is easier than Shimano - the shifters are closer to your fingers. I anything this and the lack of a proper hood will incentivise mento stay in the drops for longer.

The bike is a Van Nicolas Mistral. Not a touring bike, more of a sportif type bike. The reason is say nit a touring bike is theta there are no eyelets.

It feels upright relative to my other bikes - must measure headset geometry.

I was going to do a little bit of racing on it, but don't think that I can given how sluggish it reacts. More of a nice jaunt in the country.
Ideal in a way for winter training excluding intervals.

In terms of what she was wearing
Vittoria Open Pave on Mavic Kysrium Eltites. I do not believe that this wheel/tyre combo held the bike back in any way.

Ryder

ROK ON wrote: »

A few months back I bought a Ti frame second hand that was advertised on this site - a Van Nicolas.
Lovely looking bike.

Deciding that I wanted to have a change from Shimano Ultegra SL I decided to go for SRAM.

I picked up a mix of Red and Rival parts.

During the week Holyboy of BeeCycles put the bike together for me. Between yesterday and today I have put in 8 hours on largely unchallenging terrain around Kildare and Wicklow.

A review.

I get the impression that Campag is for the fashionistas, Shimano formthe feeds and SRAM for the cool kids. I had high expectations.

Firstly as everyone says about shifting on SRAM, it is very precise. Yep - I concur. It also only takes a short period of time to get used to the shifting.

Everything else is sun par IMHO. SRAM red brifters. By jaysus they feel horrible. There is no real hood to speak of relative to Shimano or indeed Campag. Furthermore I now know where the massive weight saving comes from - the seem extraordinarily brittle. When shifting it feels as if the shifter could literally snap at any minute.
SRAM rival brakes. Not confidence inspiring. Spongy with pretty poor stopping power relative to Ultegra.

Now to the bike. It looks beautiful. But this is a Ti frame - I had heard so much about this wonder material. High expectations.
200k done over two days. It's comfortable yes, but not extraordinarily so.
I have three other bikes:
Dolan Hercules - stupidly comfortable. Like cycling a big spongy flexy coach. If I had to do a flat Audax in the morning this would be the bike. It is a cheap heavy flexy carbon frame.
Kuota Kebel - can be stiff, but climbs very well and on good roads descends and corners beautifully. When you turn the cranks the bike eats the road - of all the bikes I have this has the best power transfer by a long way.
Orbea Aqua - an alu Orbea. Heavy but I have done some serious distance in crap weather on this bike. Took me a while to get used to but I like it a lot now.

Versus these the Van Nicolas is comfy but not as comfy as the Dolan. Power transfer is very poor - the bike takes a long time to react - it's sort of like having to get warmed up - a few revolutions of the pedals are necessary to get going at all.

I think that most folk when they but a bike are loath to give an honest appraisal of it in terms of performance and comfort.

I will continue to ride the Ti frame over Christmas. Hopefully it grows on me, but I have to say that the experience thus far flatters to deceive. Underwhelming.

Frame geometry has a greater impact than material IMO. I have a planet x to road for 4years now and love it. Comfy, responsive and stiff. I've heard about some issues with power power transfer, but at 85kgs....I haven't noticed. I'm sure I could find an equally good carbon or alu ride, but I like the look and design of ti....its a personal choice. My next bike will likely be a custom lynskey.

Re the SRAM, I've used rival for 4years, and no problem. Admittedly, I got them to be cool.....and miss the long Shimano hoods. I think I would get Shimano next time....when I change.

Good post btw.....probably should be more review posts like these on the forum. What type of van Nicholas do you have.....is it a racing or sportive frame? This may account for some of your problems...
.also tried swappingthe wheels?

Edit....I see it was the mistral. This explains a lot. Making a sportive frame (read comfy) is risky, and obviously in your case it resulted in one that's too mushy.

lennymc

what pads are on the brakes? I have sram force with swisstop pads and they wouldnt hesitate about throwing you over the bars.

i prefer the sram hoods, but again, i have small hands. any pics of the bike?

Lumen

My Ti bike (custom Enigma Esprit with straight gauge tubing) isn't noticeably smoother than the other bikes I've owned.

On a badly surfaced road it feels as unpleasant as everything else. Wheels/tyre pressures probably make a bigger difference than frame material.

happytramp

Rok on, is there any chance of putting up a couple of pictures. I'd been admiring the frame and red parts in the shop before it was built up. I was also raging that I missed seeing it built up by arriving 10min after you collected it.

ROK ON

@ Happytramp - thanks. The bike looks good and that's the main thing, right? I am in Dunlin at present on a smartphone. I will be I'm Kerry next week so will upload a photo.

@ Lumen - as usual sir you hit the nail on the head. On crap roads it feels like I am riding a bike on crap roads. Most other bikes I have been in feel the same. Given that this is Ti I had expected a super bike that would absorb the worst of Irish roads. Big expectations gap to be honest.

@ LennyMc - I also have very small hands. But the lack of a proper hood is thusfar a downside for SRAM red IMHO. They are mere nubs as opposed to hoods. I'll give them a month before making a definite decision - but I can see me heading back to Shimano.

Yes some of the feel can be down to tyre pressure. 120psi. That's what I ride - when in Kerry I ride roads that are infinitely inferior to those of Kildare and Wicklow, and this is the pressure that I use.

doozerie

@ROK ON, My post wasn't meant to be critical by the way, and I hope it didn't come across as such. I wasn't questioning your rating of your bike, evaluating a bike is such a personal thing that I suspect 10 people given the same bike to ride would come back with 10 different opinions/ratings. I was giving a view of a different titanium frame just to say that titanium can prove to be a good choice for some people in some circumstances, which does nothing to challenge your evaluation of your one.

There is one myth that I've encountered quite a few times in relation to titanium, and that is that titanium frames are somehow indestructible and are therefore a once-in-a-lifetime investment. I've encountered this view over many years amongst individuals, in at least one bike shop, and online. Knowing little of the material's properties I just accepted/swallowed this view of titanium many years ago and it was certainly one reason why a titanium frame was on my list of things to buy at some stage. In recent years though I've read of a number of people whose titanium frames have cracked or snapped (perhaps at the joints, I don't recall exactly), and while it's probably fixable I expect it would be very expensive. Titanium still has some notable, if not unique, benefits such as a non-painted finish that can be low maintenance (depending on the particular finishing option you choose, that is), but I no longer buy into the myth that titanium is indestructible.

Wibbs

doozerie wrote: »

Titanium still has some notable, if not unique, benefits such as a non-painted finish that can be low maintenance (depending on the particular finishing option you choose, that is), but I no longer buy into the myth that titanium is indestructible.

+1 D like all of these received wisdoms on any of the materials, reality is often overlooked. Steel rusts. Yea but that's easily prevented. Steel is heavy. Yea but there are guys knocking out steel framed bikes that are under the UCI limit. Carbon fibre breaks catastrophically. Riiiiight, yet millions happily ride CF with zero issues. Oh and steel and Ti and especially Al can fail suddenly too. CF is "dead feeling". Depends on how its built. etc etc.

Ti is a great material, however it's very tricky to weld right and can "tear" for want of a better word, remarkably easily. I'm quite sure a quality frame knocked together by a quality builder would be a lifetime frame, but you could say that about steel and carbon fibre too(there are some Italian lads knocking up real artworks in CF). Even Al is in the mix, though just in my humble it would be the "poor cousin" overall as a frame material*.

*EDIT* Hype can come into it too. I remember back in the day lots of talk of the different tensile strengths of various steel and Al tubesets. All good, until someone who knows about that kinda thing pointed out to me that glass, yep glass has a higher tensile strength than CrMo steel. Would you ride a glass frame? Though there were Waterford bikes back in the day so...

Actually why not a frame made from fibre optic filaments in resin? What about a full kevlar frame or a boron one? Have they ever been made? I remember in fishing rods kevlar went out of fashion PDQ. I wonder why? I had one and it was a beaut.




*Why? It's light but again IMH that's about the only thing going for it. You don't tend to see Al springs for good reason. Repair is almost always dodgy. It has a finite failure life and can oxidise near as much as steel. For me anyway it was a good material, but an interim one and steel, CF and Ti are very much ahead on pretty much all fronts

coastwatch

Lumen wrote: »

My Ti bike (custom Enigma Esprit with straight gauge tubing) isn't noticeably smoother than the other bikes I've owned.

On a badly surfaced road it feels as unpleasant as everything else. Wheels/tyre pressures probably make a bigger difference than frame material.

A bit subjective I suppose, but I'd add "season" to that, both my alu & carbon bikes feel harsher at this time of year, a 2 hour spin on a cold damp day in winter can feel like 5 hours on a good summers day, (not that we get too many of them).

niceonetom

http://www.cyclingtips.com.au/2012/12/look-what-i-came-across-this-morning-sram-instagram/

Mahoosive hoods and (presumably) superior braking. Good enough for you ROK?