new farmer

greenkeeper1

hi lads iam looking for some advice. Iam thinking of getting into some beef cattle as a hobby and a small money spinner Iam not looking to become a millionaire .i have 22 acres with a couple of sheds yard and crush.its my fathers land and he has it rented out for the last number of years.the yard is a bit run down as it was not part of the deal.it would prob take time to fix up so i would be working around that so winter feeding is prob out of the question for the time being.my plan is to buy 2 or 3 heifers and farm maybe 5 or six acres just till i get the hang of things and leave the rest rented out.as long as i break even for the first year or two and get some upgrades around the yard i would be happy enough maybe buy a few more each year and taking a bit more land back and start to make a few bob then.any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.also is there any courses that could be done just to improve my knowledge

micky mouse

Beef farming.Its a money spinner alright but not in the direction you would hope.:D.You might have some hope with young stock,but none with heavy cattle . Too much expence.

Timmaay

greenkeeper1 wrote: »

as long as i break even for the first year or two and get some upgrades around the yard i would be happy enough maybe buy a few more each year and taking a bit more land back and start to make a few bob then.

If you only lose afew grand the 1st 2 years, and manage to breakeven after that you'll be doing a hell of alot better than probably 99% of other beef farmers at your scale!!

greenkeeper1

micky mouse wrote: »

Beef farming.Its a money spinner alright but not in the direction you would hope.:D.You might have some hope with young stock,but none with heavy cattle . Too much expence.

I was thinking if summer grazing any suggestions on what to buy

micky mouse

Depends on the sort of ground you have.If its good dry land then young cattle would be your best bet.Heavier courser ground might be more suited towards suckling

Muckit

Have you or your father an active herd number?

1chippy

Buy plain. if your only starting out. dose regularly, vaccinate as i have learnt the hard way and dont spend anything that you cant survive without out.
Theres great satisfaction in seeing animals thrive but it can get you down just as easy as you see them fail.
It could be worth your while to get a trustworthy farmer or even dealer to maybe pick you up a few.
Dont go mad buying the best your first year until you get the hang of things.

greenkeeper1

1chippy wrote: »

Buy plain. if your only starting out. dose regularly, vaccinate as i have learnt the hard way and dont spend anything that you cant survive without out.
Theres great satisfaction in seeing animals thrive but it can get you down just as easy as you see them fail.
It could be worth your while to get a trustworthy farmer or even dealer to maybe pick you up a few.
Dont go mad buying the best your first year until you get the hang of things.

Cheers chippy I have a farmer who said he would get me a couple when he buys his own from a dealer so that shouldn't be a problem. As I said it will be only a few as Iam working aswell just hopin to make a small profit on them . As far as the herd number I have to reactivate my fathers or get one myself

Belongamick

I would be tempted to stay away from heifers - neighbours bull might visit if you are away at work etc.
I would pay a visit to local mart and try and determine where the demand is. For example, assume you are not keeping cattle for the winter then you are looking at buying in spring. Have a look at what Aberdeen Angus stock are making at various weights - imagine yourself buying at the lower weights and selling (6 months after) at the higher weight. Similar for the Continental type cattle. See how the demand differs and put a bit of a budget together.
When you decide to take the plunge you may be better off using the skill/services of a relative or family friend to make the purchase.
It can be very rewarding (sometimes not financially!) but to loose a ball of cash in the first year would cause you to park the idea of keeping cattle for a lifetime.

Tipp Man

If i was you this is what i would probably do

Get into a system of buying 11-12 yearlings in the spring - the hungrier the better - around the 250-300 kg mark, graze them for the summer, winter them and fatten off grass the next summer, the spring of the second year buy another 11 yearlings and off you go. you have 11 yearlings and 11 two year olds on grass for the summer

I would buy in all silage - you are talking maybe less than 50 bales to winter that number of cattle. Try to keep costs to a minimum - no fertiliser, no meal (maybe last few weeks if they aren't fully finished) and have a nice simple system for yourself

You have a small number of cattle over the winter so should be no bother and it is less risky than summer grazing - this year cattle are worth less in the autumn than in the spring after putting on a couple of hundred kilos

you'd make about 5k fairly handy i reckon on the system i am talking about - and you would have practically no work with it - a bit of feeding in the winter (a bale should do that number of cattle 2 or 3 days) and you'd have to top the place to keep the weeds back once or twice a year. Then just make sure you keep on top of the vetinary.

It's a lot less work than rearing calves and probably just as profitable. You reduce the risk of market fluctuations that exists with summer grazing as you have about 2/3 the value of your stock on hands over winter

Tipp Man

1 thing to remember about cattle is that no matter what system you do you will not be rich - if you are aware of that at the start then you'll be fine. You could make as much money renting out the land - BUT having cattle and working with them can be enjoyable and a nice hobby to have. you won't get any joy out of renting out the land

Beef in Ireland nowadays seems to have been pushed down the "Ryanair" business model i.e. loads of numbers making a small amount from them. Unfortunately we don't have the same control on costs, Mick O leary has them cut to a minimum but beef farmers are pumping nuts into cattle and fertiliser into grass at huge costs (nevermind the costs of maize, whoecrop etc) It's pure rubbish in my mind (not for Ryanair obviously but for beef;)) Less stock, less costs - more money that is what i firmly believe in

Of course only my opinion - I'd prefer to have 100 cattle for a year making 300 on them than 600 a year making 50 quid on them

It's nearly impossible to justify spending money on beef i reckon

greenkeeper1

that sounds good to me tipp man but id have to start on a smaller scale maybe 2 or 3.how many acres and paddocks would i need for we'l say 3 , the farm has 3 square fields 7 8 and 5 acres.i was hoping to take the 5 back first and yard work away with that.

Tipp Man

greenkeeper1 wrote: »

that sounds good to me tipp man but id have to start on a smaller scale maybe 2 or 3.how many acres and paddocks would i need for we'l say 3 , the farm has 3 square fields 7 8 and 5 acres.i was hoping to take the 5 back first and yard work away with that.

Don't bother with paddocks - set stocking all the way

Your 5 acre field would allow you to buy 2 or 3 small (250kg) cattle and 2 large cattle (500 kg) next spring, the big cattle should be finished in autumn, winter the small 1's and buy 2-3 small 1's in spring 2014

The cost of buying the stock in spring 2013 will be circa 3.5k - 4k, in spring 2014 (and thereafter) 1500-2k - assuming you go with 2-3 per annum

greenkeeper1

thanks for all the info tipp man greatly appreciated.any tips on breed iam drawin to angus

amacca

greenkeeper1 wrote: »

thanks for all the info tipp man greatly appreciated.any tips on breed iam drawin to angus

dont want to get in the middle of anything and I'm sure tippman will have better advice but I've found angus to be good hardy cattle that look after themselves as long as they are not the thinner ones with the lighter brown coat that have the build of a Friesian (posters here will probably know the name of the breed i'm talking about - they still have aax on their card but are not a patch on the dark black blocky ones)

the breed i've had the least trouble with and I think suits our climate etc is hereford

I buy them as suck calves and very rarely lose an animal or have one that doesn't thrive and return fairly good money (well I haven't lost money on them at any rate)

charolais if they are not too expensive to buy in have been good to me too but overall hereford (black whiteheads) have been best for someone like me who doesn't put too much into it

greenkeeper1

god know amacca the more info i can get the better thanks for that what price would the range from

micky mouse

Cattle that were bought this spring did not leave much money for the lads that had them.I know a lad has a bit of ground that he got, something like your own set up.Takes 2 cuts of silage of it ,sells the bales,and grazes sheep on it for the winter (thin lambs are not that hard bought and thrive something fierce on good ground).Plus they leave you with a good sward the following spring=good silage=easy sold.Also you dont have alot of money stuck in this system .;)

greenkeeper1

I would prefer the cattle side of it but when your talkin about a good sward would putting sheep on it over the winter get me a good sward for grazing the year after I wouldn't say the land was ever grazed to the scut. Just to give it a good clean out my uncle has sheep and horses Iam sure he would be thrilled to get some free grazing

micky mouse

Well there ya go greenkeeper,one problem solved for ya.Sheep will clean it up .Nice even grass next spring evev if ya dont take meadow off it.Make sure ya have a good understanding with your uncle.Sometimes the hardest tenants to deal with are da family:D;)

greenkeeper1

Never a truer word spoken ha ha. When would I want to take them off it to give it a chance to come back. I would need a shot of fertiliser too I suppose

micky mouse

February.Dont let in horses no matter what.cause they will cut it up.Bit of fert will do it good.And if able to get few thin cattle start of march then your sorted as the lads said pervious.All ya have to do then is wait for the money to roll in:rolleyes:

greenkeeper1

micky mouse wrote: »

February.Dont let in horses no matter what.cause they will cut it up.Bit of fert will do it good.And if able to get few thin cattle start of march then your sorted as the lads said pervious.All ya have to do then is wait for the money to roll in:rolleyes:

Somethin tells me it won't roll in but if some walked in every once in a while I'd be happy enough

kingstown

Hi Greenkeeper
Similar situation as you. Small farm etc but still have to rent out some of it as i need a reliable income. While i grew up on a farm i never really farmed in my own right as i alway worked away. So new to this a well.
Re activate our old herd number in April
Bought 8 heifers in April and finished them off on grass / some nuts and sold them to the factory in Sept. The lad renting the rest of the farm helped me out a little there.
Didn't intend wintering any cattle this year as i work about 30 miles from home so not easy to get home in the middle of the day if nees be.
Ended up with 3 Lim bullocks 340kg in November and had to buy in some haylage but got bad bales!
Bought some sq bales of good hay, so feeding them every morning before i go to work with about 3kg of nuts and they also have a field or two next to the to yard which they graze during the day.
They seem happy enough, but its too much hassle wintering cattle with the job and hours i put in at work. Its grand on the weekends and will be fine over Christmas. Even like having them there as it gets me out and about etc...
I intend to buy in maybe 8/10 handy cattle in spring and hope to sell sept / Oct (same as everybody i suppose) and as i go along try and increase numbers a little every year until i can make enough cancel the rent money.
You have to start somewhere, so it you buy in a few cattle next spring the best of luck with the farming for 2013

Trained Monkey

Hi all,
might be in a similar situation myself, if i decide to go that route next year. How do you go about re-activating a herd number?

greenkeeper1

kingstown wrote: »

Hi Greenkeeper
Similar situation as you. Small farm etc but still have to rent out some of it as i need a reliable income. While i grew up on a farm i never really farmed in my own right as i alway worked away. So new to this a well.
Re activate our old herd number in April
Bought 8 heifers in April and finished them off on grass / some nuts and sold them to the factory in Sept. The lad renting the rest of the farm helped me out a little there.
Didn't intend wintering any cattle this year as i work about 30 miles from home so not easy to get home in the middle of the day if nees be.
Ended up with 3 Lim bullocks 340kg in November and had to buy in some haylage but got bad bales!
Bought some sq bales of good hay, so feeding them every morning before i go to work with about 3kg of nuts and they also have a field or two next to the to yard which they graze during the day.
They seem happy enough, but its too much hassle wintering cattle with the job and hours i put in at work. Its grand on the weekends and will be fine over Christmas. Even like having them there as it gets me out and about etc...
I intend to buy in maybe 8/10 handy cattle in spring and hope to sell sept / Oct (same as everybody i suppose) and as i go along try and increase numbers a little every year until i can make enough cancel the rent money.
You have to start somewhere, so it you buy in a few cattle next spring the best of luck with the farming for 2013

Thanks Kingstown that's the sort of stuff Iam after wintering would prob suit me if I get the facilities right in yard as Iam a greenkeeper so start early and finish early. Just on the renting out while your there had you any trouble with that with two farmers using the same farm I taught that might be an issue. Just another question for everybody I would have access to a lot of lawn grass clippings as my dad went into the landscaping business after the farming I'd have enough grass to feed 50 cattle if I wanted I'd say just wondering is it any good to give them during the summer and most important is it safe

Tipp Man

God if ye all start taking back the 20-30 acre parcels of land there won't be grazing got for love nor money

Timmaay

I'm being very harsh here Tipp ha, but don't worry for many the land will be back for rent after a year or so of hardship for no gain.

kingstown

Regarding 2 farmers on the same farm, cant comment on that as i dont know enough about it. We have two yards & 2 cattle crushes and the land is fenced off, so that may help and i am keeping the land around the house.
Maybe someone else would know more about that?
'
Re the grass clippings, cant comment either but i always 'tip' my lawn clipping over the gate and they cattle go mad for it.

Dont worry Tipp Man there is plenty of land out there for rent and always will be.
I just wanted to do this and keep a few cattle myself and also rent out a bit of the farm.
Who knows maybe in a few years as i expand Timmaay, I'll be on the look out for a suitable farm to rent myself..... :rolleyes:

Timmaay

kingstown wrote: »

Who knows maybe in a few years as i expand Timmaay, I'll be on the look out for a suitable farm to rent myself..... :rolleyes:

Ah yep as I said straight out I was being harsh, but best of luck, the way most businesses go only the top few % of startups succeed (which I eluded to in my comment, most but I didn't say all of them blocks will be back for rent), the odds are 2bh stacked against ya but once you have a good business head on you and work hard enough, mixed with luck along the way you might make it!!

kingstown

Thanks Timmaay - only ''rising'' you regarding the land available to rent..:)

I suppose everyone has a different reason for starting to farm after years of renting. I live on the place and like the land even though i work in a job in a different county.
Sometimes the driving can get to you but i like to take a walk up the farm in the (bright) evenings.
The 'boss man' got ill and it was rented out, but last year i made a decision to farm ''a bit of it myself'' and see how i get on.
So far so good but we'll all be a little wiser next year. He is still in a nursing home so thats why i need a income of some sort from the land to keep him going.
Anyway as for Greenkeeper i hope he can do as he plans and get a couple of cattle and add to his numbers as he gains experience, i for one wish him well.

Pharaoh1

greenkeeper1 wrote: »

I was thinking if summer grazing any suggestions on what to buy

I have about the same acreage as yourself.
Bought 28 little continental bullocks last Feb/March around 280 kg and grazed them over the summer. Sold in late Oct/early Nov and they were sold for €280 more than they were bought for. Surplus grass sold as silage bales - 150 bales in total.
The margin was way down on last year as the weanlings were very pricey last spring and of course the bad summer but even still I was happy enough.

Haven't totted up all expenses yet but I expect there will be a small bit of profit.
Nice cover of grass now and a couple of lads mad to put sheep on it but that won't be happening. I'll have nice early grass and tight grazing with light cattle and good close topping will keep the sward in good shape.

Had a neighbour with a massive lawn and he used to drive out and throw out the grass to my cattle - never did them any harm but we agreed to stop it.
The cattle would walk on a lot of it and walk it into the ground and it was doing damage.

mf240

Pharaoh1 wrote: »

I have about the same acreage as yourself.
Bought 28 little continental bullocks last Feb/March around 280 kg and grazed them over the summer. Sold in late Oct/early Nov and they were sold for €280 more than they were bought for. Surplus grass sold as silage bales - 150 bales in total.
The margin was way down on last year as the weanlings were very pricey last spring and of course the bad summer but even still I was happy enough.

Haven't totted up all expenses yet but I expect there will be a small bit of profit.
Nice cover of grass now and a couple of lads mad to put sheep on it but that won't be happening. I'll have nice early grass and tight grazing with light cattle and good close topping will keep the sward in good shape.

Had a neighbour with a massive lawn and he used to drive out and throw out the grass to my cattle - never did them any harm but we agreed to stop it.
The cattle would walk on a lot of it and walk it into the ground and it was doing damage.

How much weight did they put up ?

greenkeeper1

thanks for the good wishes kingstown i hope it works out too.pharaoh sounds like that system is working for you good stuff how many acres did u use for cattle did you use nuts before you sold them off. and how many cuts of silage did you cut. did you use fertilizer.sorry about all the questions not bein noisy just trying to do as much research as i can and try figure out my best option

Pharaoh1

Pharaoh1 wrote: »

I have about the same acreage as yourself.
Bought 28 little continental bullocks last Feb/March around 280 kg and grazed them over the summer. Sold in late Oct/early Nov and they were sold for €280 more than they were bought for. Surplus grass sold as silage bales - 150 bales in total.
The margin was way down on last year as the weanlings were very pricey last spring and of course the bad summer but even still I was happy enough.

Haven't totted up all expenses yet but I expect there will be a small bit of profit.
Nice cover of grass now and a couple of lads mad to put sheep on it but that won't be happening. I'll have nice early grass and tight grazing with light cattle and good close topping will keep the sward in good shape.

Had a neighbour with a massive lawn and he used to drive out and throw out the grass to my cattle - never did them any harm but we agreed to stop it.
The cattle would walk on a lot of it and walk it into the ground and it was doing damage.

mf240 wrote: »

How much weight did they put up ?

Apologies for late reply MF240. Just looking at the averages and they weighed 512kg avg in the mart so the weight gain was 232kg. I had one nice Charolais bought and sold as a single who gained 275kg. That weight gain was over approx 230 days so at a kilo a day it is I suppose what we should be getting. Still it took a fair bit of effort and management to get that on them.

Pharaoh1

greenkeeper1 wrote: »

thanks for the good wishes kingstown i hope it works out too.pharaoh sounds like that system is working for you good stuff how many acres did u use for cattle did you use nuts before you sold them off. and how many cuts of silage did you cut. did you use fertilizer.sorry about all the questions not bein noisy just trying to do as much research as i can and try figure out my best option

Again apologies for late reply and I'll do my best to answer.
- Total grazing area was about 22 acres. I did reseed an extra 2.5 acres last April but it was so wet I only got about four days grazing from it in the year.

- Yes they got about 1kg basic ration for 5-6 weeks before sale maybe up towards 2kg for the last couple of weeks. The did get some last July as well for about a week when I ran very short of grass with late silage cutting bad weather etc...

- I just cut surplus grass so no paddock got more than one cut and I suppose 60% of the grazing area was cut for silage was cut at some stage. Some light covers some heavy but made and sold 175 bales in total.

- I didn't pull together all the fertiliser receipts yet but I used about 20,000 gals of pig slurry some in spring and some after silage cut. I would have probably spread more but for the weather. I was in REPS until 2011 and the bag manure used was around the same as the REPS allowance so not a huge amount. I was starting to correct a P and K deficiency from a recent soil test so it was all compound fertiliser.

Hope this is of some help

Doing up the figures for the accountant though is a bit of a reality check and the costs of running even a very simple operation are frightening.
For example the mart charged me 20 euro a head for selling my last batch of cattle. Might seem like a small thing but everything adds up.

REBEL COUNTY1

greenkeeper1 wrote: »

hi lads iam looking for some advice. Iam thinking of getting into some beef cattle as a hobby and a small money spinner Iam not looking to become a millionaire .i have 22 acres with a couple of sheds yard and crush.its my fathers land and he has it rented out for the last number of years.the yard is a bit run down as it was not part of the deal.it would prob take time to fix up so i would be working around that so winter feeding is prob out of the question for the time being.my plan is to buy 2 or 3 heifers and farm maybe 5 or six acres just till i get the hang of things and leave the rest rented out.as long as i break even for the first year or two and get some upgrades around the yard i would be happy enough maybe buy a few more each year and taking a bit more land back and start to make a few bob then.any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.also is there any courses that could be done just to improve my knowledge

I'm in somewhat of a similar situation greenkeeper.Planning on starting with two or three suckler cows this year. Im employed, paying paye. I met with an accountant this week to go through costs and what way money would be. Got great advice on how to balance the books etc, he's a farmer himself. Well worth getting in touch before you start anything I reckon. He's on boards as well by the name of "Lakill farm"

Username John

REBEL COUNTY1 wrote: »

I'm in somewhat of a similar situation greenkeeper.Planning on starting with two or three suckler cows this year. Im employed, paying paye. I met with an accountant this week to go through costs and what way money would be. Got great advice on how to balance the books etc, he's a farmer himself. Well worth getting in touch before you start anything I reckon. He's on boards as well by the name of "Lakill farm"

That recommendation will surely get you a big discount now...