Would you be angry if your company wanted to expand into Saudi Arabia?

Shelga

I work for a premium automotive manufacturer. Today every employee received an email, outlining the company's plans to assess the case for building a manufacturing plant in Saudi Arabia.

I feel really angry that my company wants to build cars in the one country in the world that bans women from driving. Would this bother anyone else? I know many Saudi women are happy with the status quo, and allowances need to be made for cultural differences to a point, but for me, religion is not greater than women's rights. A company that promotes women in engineering, excellent maternity benefits etc shouldn't be liaising with the Saudi government about this type of venture, IMO. It really is all about the money

After I got the email, I read further on women's rights in Saudi Arabia- it is truly shocking stuff. They couldn't pay me enough to go work there, if and when the time comes.

I am considering sending a formal email outlining my views on the matter to the relevant board members- almost certain it would have no impact, but I've surprised myself by how strongly I feel about this. What would the opinion of other TLL boardsies be?

Neewbie_noob

It's not really any of your business to be honest. Most of the women abstain from things not because of cultural reasons or chavinism, but because of their own personal religious beliefs. Many expat wimminz work in foreign compounds in Saudi Arabia.

newport2

As a man, i would agree with what you say and want no dealings with SA, particularly concerning cars that women won't be allowed drive. Unfortunately you're right in what you say though - it is all about the money. Virtually no company will put principles before profit unless they're set to gain more indirectly from the image of doing so than not.

the_syco

Shelga wrote: »

Today every employee received an email, outlining the company's plans to assess the case for building a manufacturing plant in Saudi Arabia.

You have two options;
A) Loose your job along with everyone in the company, and the company builds a plant in SA.
The company builds a plant in SA.

Which one will you pick? If the company doesn't expand, the competition will and your place will go out of business. Sometimes thoughts and feelings sometimes have to be put aside to ensure that business stays afloat.

awec

This post has been deleted.

Celly Smunt

Shelga wrote: »

I work for a premium automotive manufacturer. Today every employee received an email, outlining the company's plans to assess the case for building a manufacturing plant in Saudi Arabia.

I feel really angry that my company wants to build cars in the one country in the world that bans women from driving. Would this bother anyone else? I know many Saudi women are happy with the status quo, and allowances need to be made for cultural differences to a point, but for me, religion is not greater than women's rights. A company that promotes women in engineering, excellent maternity benefits etc shouldn't be liaising with the Saudi government about this type of venture, IMO. It really is all about the money

After I got the email, I read further on women's rights in Saudi Arabia- it is truly shocking stuff. They couldn't pay me enough to go work there, if and when the time comes.

I am considering sending a formal email outlining my views on the matter to the relevant board members- almost certain it would have no impact, but I've surprised myself by how strongly I feel about this. What would the opinion of other TLL boardsies be?

They're happy with their life but you're not.

60% of all graduates in saudi are female,that means the majority of graduates in saudi arabia are female middle class working professionals.Not oppressed poor women with no choices for themselves.They work some of the highest professions,teachers,doctors nurses,and a hell of a lot of them are engineers.

If you've never been to saudi first hand,don't base judgement on the women you see as oppressed,they are strong women who the majority have made the choice to follow the religion of their land.

Liveforrugby

What is this? Despite what the media has fed you, women in Saudia Arabia are having a blast. My aunt is over there working as a doc, she says that even middle class women simply employ house maids, socialize and generally have a blast. Who cares if you can't drive lol, who wants to when you don't need to? really aint that bad

MissFlitworth

Women not legally being able to drive is hugely offputting for me, fair enough if women don't want to drive, that's their choice. Can't drive is a different kettle of fish altogether

I do not like the gender politics in Saudi, it bothers me hugely (even if it doesn't bother the people living there) that women can't drive, still can't vote in some elections, can't legally leave the house without the permission of their male guardian and all that other horrible jazz. Now having said that I'm not 100% sure where I picked up that knowledge and I will look into it more deeply to make sure I'm not superimposing A Thousand Splendid Suns over the actuality of what life in Saudi is. My main issue with Saudi Arabia and the reason I would really not ever want to work or live there (or in some other Arab nations) is because of their horrible attitude to migrant workers, this I'm more certain to be a reality from friends and relatives who have returned from working in some of the Arab states including Saudi really deeply upset at what basically looks like slavery

http://www.hrw.org/world-report-2012/world-report-2012-saudi-arabia

so I wouldn't be overly happy if I was working somewhere that was looking to base itself there

Celly Smunt

Maybe we should hear it from the horses mouth rather than journalists.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFFPSRbSLLI

saiint

if you dont go
you lose your job
if you do go , you keep your job

fair enough the country is a **** hole ( my own opinion ) but in fairness its their country, they can have what ever laws they like
and if your company feels it be better for them to move their, then so be it, they'll happily go with or without you because at this stage everyone is can be replaced

if i was you id go for the experience, who knows you could end up living their cause you might love it

rain on

We have three offices in Saudi Arabia with a good few women working in them, it never occurred to me to feel one way or the other about it before...

ash23

We had a similar issue here but to be honest, my job means more to me than my feminist principles at the moment.

Shelga

My job is in no immediate danger and I am not being asked to move to Saudi Arabia. I just find it at odds with the company's pro-women policies that they would see fit to manufacture in this particular country. And it is certainly not a case of "set up operations there or go bankrupt"; very rarely are business opportunities so black-and-white.

To me, the situation in SA is akin to apartheid in South Africa, I don't remember anyone saying "ah sure it's a different culture, let them get on with it"- you either believe in universal women's rights or you don't. Ok, plenty of the female population there are perfectly happy, fair dues, but don't people think they should at least have the CHOICE to drive, vote, leave the house by themselves etc?

So far the responses seem to be along the lines of "Be quiet if you want to keep your job and stop making a fuss over nothing." I guess we should all just lick arse wherever we can and never voice disagreement or open lines of discussion with senior management.

And telling me my opinion isn't as valid as others because I've never been to Saudi is ridiculous, IMO. Reminds me of "You're not a mother, you'll never understand"...

Da Shins Kelly

MissFlitworth wrote: »

Women not legally being able to drive is hugely offputting for me, fair enough if women don't want to drive, that's their choice. Can't drive is a different kettle of fish altogether

I do not like the gender politics in Saudi, it bothers me hugely (even if it doesn't bother the people living there) that women can't drive, still can't vote in some elections, can't legally leave the house without the permission of their male guardian and all that other horrible jazz. Now having said that I'm not 100% sure where I picked up that knowledge and I will look into it more deeply to make sure I'm not superimposing A Thousand Splendid Suns over the actuality of what life in Saudi is. My main issue with Saudi Arabia and the reason I would really not ever want to work or live there (or in some other Arab nations) is because of their horrible attitude to migrant workers, this I'm more certain to be a reality from friends and relatives who have returned from working in some of the Arab states including Saudi really deeply upset at what basically looks like slavery

http://www.hrw.org/world-report-2012/world-report-2012-saudi-arabia

so I wouldn't be overly happy if I was working somewhere that was looking to base itself there

My aunt lived and worked in Saudi for many years as a midwife and admitted she did it for the money. She said she was very well-paid in her job and in fact the money that she earned there has allowed her to retire at a young age and come back to Ireland and live a very comfortable life. She did say, however, that Saudi is pretty much hell on earth for women and she would never recommend the place to anyone else.

I think I would be disappointed if somewhere I was working wanted to get involved with somewhere like Saudi Arabia. The reports that we hear about the place are not entirely exaggerated and I just wouldn't really want to be associated with it, to be honest.

Merkin

I've lived and went to school in Saudi. Yes, a lot of societal norms are totally wrong and archaic but then so are human rights records in China and the ritual degredation of women in some parts of India. If one were to decide to boycott travel to places that don't fit in with our morals or are at odds with what we deem acceptable then we'd be pretty limited as to where exactly we can go don't you think?

Peregrinus

It's very unlikely that social and economic isolation is going to change social attitudes on the role of women in Saudi Arabia; the other way around, I'd expect.

So if you'd like to see change in Saudi, the rational strategy is to promote the highest degree of engagement between Saudi and the rest of the world.

meeeeh

I presume you don't drive or use heating oil. But if you do, then relax you are already financially supporting Saudi regime and your company locating there won't make much of a difference.

Btw I don't like it when business is openly dictating governments what to do. The next time it might be for a less worthwhile cause.

Esterhase

It's like you said yourself OP - it's all about the money. Unless a huge number of people also send emails outlining similar concerns, I imagine yours would likely be ignored.

If the people that travel there for work are happy enough with all the legal restrictions, then I wouldn't argue against them going. And I wouldn't be surprised or angry at a large company opening up shop there either. Business is business after all. Sure many of the women there are probably miserable, but many others are probably happy with their lot - same as every other country. I'd definitely like to see Saudi women reach the same levels of freedom that we have here but that's an issue for the Saudi people to deal with, not us.

Victor

Shelga wrote: »

I feel really angry that my company wants to build cars in the one country in the world that bans women from driving.

Is this being a bit precious given the damage that the car industry does?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-related_death_rate

According to the World Health Organization, road traffic injuries caused an estimated 1.26 million deaths worldwide in the year 2000. The average rate was 20.8 per 100,000 people, 30.8 for males, 11.0 for females. 90% occurred in low and middle income countries, with South-East Asia and Africa having the highest rates.

jill_valentine

My sister recently turned down an absolutely extraordinary amount of money to work in Saudi Arabia for a few weeks. They sent a delegation of twelve people over to try and win her over, ten blokes and two women. The two women, although ostensibly of the same rank as the men, had to walk behind them at all times and relay all enquiries through them. Meanwhile, the blokes who had come all the way to Dublin, having picked her from all the people in Europe with her very specialist skillset, proceeded to keep addressing questions to the spotty teenage work experience chap she had in doing photocopying for her for a few hours that day.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%27s_rights_in_Saudi_Arabia

Every adult woman has to have a close male relative as her "guardian".[215] As a result, Human Rights Watch has described the position of Saudi women as like that of a minor, with little authority over their own lives.[217] The guardian is entitled to make a number of critical decisions on a woman's behalf.[217] These include giving approval for the woman to travel, to hold some types of business licenses, to study at a university or college and to work if the type of business is not "deemed appropriate for a woman."[215] Even where a guardian’s approval is not legally required, some officials will still ask for it.[218]

Guardians now even receive a text message if "their" woman is believed to be attempting to travel without them.

Saudi activist Wajeha Al-Huwaider agrees that most Saudi men are caring, but "it’s the same kind of feeling they have for handicapped people or for animals. The kindness comes from pity, from lack of respect.”[8] She compares male guardianship to slavery:[25]

The ownership of a woman is passed from one man to another. Ownership of the woman is passed from the father or the brother to another man, the husband. The woman is merely a piece of merchandise, which is passed over to someone else—her guardian ... Ultimately, I think women are greatly feared. When I compare the Saudi man with other Arab men, I can say that the Saudi is the only man who could not compete with the woman. He could not compete, so what did he do with her? ... The woman has capabilities. When women study, they compete with the men for jobs. All jobs are open to men. 90% of them are open to men. You do not feel any competition ... If you do not face competition from the Saudi woman ... you have the entire scene for yourself. All positions and jobs are reserved for you. Therefore, you are a spoiled and self-indulged man.

The absurdity of the guardianship system, according to Huwaider, is shown by what would happen if she tried to remarry: "I would have to get the permission of my son."

The Saudi Labor Ministry has been inconsistent in its support for women's right to work. In 2006, Minister Dr. Ghazi Al-Qusaibi commented: "the [Labor] Ministry is not acting to [promote] women's employment since the best place for a woman to serve is in her own home" He went on to say:[59]

"therefore no woman will be employed without the explicit consent of her guardian. We will also make sure that the [woman's] job will not interfere with her work at home with her family, or with her eternal duty of raising her children."

In conclusion, I would be angry. It is, quite literally, the very worst place on earth for and to women. I would get over it, because if you work for a big employer you've got basically no sway at all in that regard, but it would make me feel pretty crummy about going to my desk every morning.

meeeeh

I suspect the employer is a luxury car brand and as such Saudi customers represent important clients. Moving the production there is just another aspect of the same problem. We live in globalized world and it's extremely hard to make a stand on issues as this. That being said I have no interest to travel to Saudi Arabia and spend my money there. Primary because of their treatment of immigrant workers.

Madam_X

When I read the thread title I thought "Nah I wouldn't, it's just business" but when the company is a car company it is a bit of a thorny one. Yeah MissFlitworth the migrant worker slavery and abuse stuff is un-****ing-believably horrific. These people are being abused and even killed in European cities too, because of the Saudi diplomats they work for having homes there. Very disturbing...:-/

I wouldn't be angry though, I gotta admit. Plus, good point about the oil.

Hate though the "Objecting to certain customs and practices in other countries is 'forcing' our culture on them" type line - it is? That's a great thing to say to civilians in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Congo, Somalia and so on.

jill_valentine

jill_valentine wrote: »

In conclusion, I would be angry. It is, quite literally, the very worst place on earth for and to women.

Believe it or not, there's actually worse. Its all that, and poverty too in Yemen, and its all that and war and poverty too in Afghanistan.:(

I wouldn't want to set foot in Saudi, I wouldn't want to contribute in any possible way to a society that perpetuates and promotes that treatment of half its population. To answer the OP, yes, I'd be angry. I'd be raging.

Stheno

jill_valentine wrote: »

It is, quite literally, the very worst place on earth for and to women.

A 2011 survey didn't even rank Saudi in the top five worst places for women to live in the world.

Saudis treatment of low paid foreign workers is appalling, particularly domestic workers.

OP if your company does not insist on you going over there, then don't. If they do, you could perhaps outline your feelings on the culture over there, and say that you'd prefer not to have to travel.

Have you any clauses about travel in your contract?

Ambersky

I think this article may be of interest because it is kind of asking a simular question "Can law firms with offices in Saudi Arabia take women's rights seriously?"
http://www.guardian.co.uk/law/2012/oct/23/law-firms-saudi-arabia-womens-rights
When people say women can have a great time in Dubai the pay is great and there are servants to do your washing and cleaning etc. Do they not think of those servants as women. Some of the women and men working in the UAE from contries like the Philippines are practically indentured slaves.
A work colleague of mine who lived there for a time was explaining the hierarchy which is strictly controled within the UAE, first are the Arabs, then Westerners, then Pakistanis who may be Muslim, below them are Indians and below them again are workers like Filipinos. In a hairdressers she was asked who she would like to do her hair and she saw a nice woman she pointed to. The manager said "you mean you want it to do your hair, very well" and he clicked his fingers at her and told her to do a good job or else. The woman told her a little of her story quietly in answer to my friends questions and cried when she was given a tip. She believed such workers were seen and treated as less than human. There are extensive accounts of severe maltreatment of such workers.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/oct/08/middleeast.construction

From the first link

Around 60% of Saudi women now have university degrees, according to an Oxford Strategic Consulting study, yet they only make up 15% of the workforce

Ultra-conservative Saudi Arabia remains the only country in the world where women are forbidden from driving.
They are currently excluded from holding prominent political positions and will get the vote for the first time in 2015.
Women still cannot travel, open a bank account or access health care without male permission.
And Saudi Arabia languishes in 131st place out of 135 countries in the World Economic Forum's 2011 Global Gender Gap report, and rock bottom among high-income countries.

Lastly and a real deal breaker for me is the fact that the United Arab Emirates still has the death penalty for homosexuality. FFS!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_the_United_Arab_Emirates
http://detainedindubai.org/Detained_In_Dubai/Gay_in_Dubai.html

SwanSky

There's a shocking amount of ignorance in some of the earlier posts on this thread about women's treatment in Saudi Arabia. 'Saudi women are happy'? Yeah, my arse they are. It hardly equates to 'happy' when you are unable to see, or feel entitled to, any alternative.

Women are treated like dogs in that country and in many others besides. If anyone seriously thinks this situation is okay let them imagine men being denied the right to drive, or to vote, or to walk, without permission, out their own front fcuking doors.

Standman

A woman in Saudi is as free as her guardian allows her to be. For most in the upper classes this means a cushy and spoiled lifestyle, a "Downton Abbey-esque" kind of culture but with i-phones and widescreen TVs.

Madam_X

That thing about the hairdresser Ambersky wrote simultaneously made me shiver and feel sick.

Servants have been beaten to death, bones broken, scalded with irons... It's terrifying.

Standman

Standman wrote: »

A woman in Saudi is as free as her guardian allows her to be. For most in the upper classes this means a cushy and spoiled lifestyle, a "Downton Abbey-esque" kind of culture but with i-phones and widescreen TVs.

Yep. I used to teach a lot of Saudi students and knowing what we think about Saudi, they would try to convince me that it's amazing for women there because they don't have to work, they get a driver to take them everywhere, they spend their days at shopping malls and getting their nails done. That's all well and good but what about your freedom? It's essentially living your life in an open prison. You can't even go to the doctor on your own. No thanks.

um7y1h83ge06nx

Kannon Fat Seam wrote: »

Yep. I used to teach a lot of Saudi students and knowing what we think about Saudi, they would try to convince me that it's amazing for women there because they don't have to work, they get a driver to take them everywhere, they spend their days at shopping malls and getting their nails done. That's all well and good but what about your freedom? It's essentially living your life in an open prison. You can't even go to the doctor on your own. No thanks.

It's such a culture difference. In this country if a man (who I am one) heard a women talk like this they would probably use the phrase "gold digger" to describe her and maybe think of her as boring as she doesn't have any ambition. But I guess that's the way things are out there unfortunately.

Madam_X

SwanSky wrote: »

There's a shocking amount of ignorance in some of the earlier posts on this thread about women's treatment in Saudi Arabia.

Indeed. Denial too. I admit I was fairly ignorant about it also, but in a matter of days I've changed my mind completely.
I do understand though it's not always easy to take a stand when it comes to business, but still, no reason not to discuss it.

pmcmahon wrote: »

They're happy with their life but you're not.

Yeh... wtf?! Where oh where did the OP say she is not happy with her life? And how on earth do you know those women in Saudi are happy with their lives? One rich woman in a video talking about herself and her pals doesn't constitute all of them.

they are strong women who the majority have made the choice to follow the religion of their land.

How do you know this?

Liveforrugby wrote: »

even middle class women simply employ house maids, socialize and generally have a blast. Who cares if you can't drive lol, who wants to when you don't need to? really aint that bad

Holy crap... Maybe you've changed your mind now that you've read that women need permission to set foot outside the house.
Also, what's the point of comparing western women in compounds with female citizens there...?
Your aunt having a blast makes no difference in relation to the latter, plus as said, what about the women whom they employ as housemaids? When people say Saudi women have a great life, they mean rich Saudi women.

ash23 wrote: »

We had a similar issue here but to be honest, my job means more to me than my feminist principles at the moment.

It's not a feminist issue IMO, it's a human rights one concerning people who happen to be female.
But there's nothing wrong with prioritising your job in fairness.

Stench Blossoms

Madam_X wrote: »

Yeh... wtf?! Where oh where did the OP say she is not happy with her life? And how on earth do you know those women in Saudi are happy with their lives? One rich woman in a video talking about herself and her pals doesn't constitute all of them.

I think what they meant here was that the OP wouldn't be happy with their (their being Saudi womens') life, not her own.

Lightbulb Sun

The concerns of the OP are very much valid. Saudi Arabias human rights in general are shocking.

A Primal Nut

http://saudiwoman.me/

An interesting insight into life as a Saudi woman from one who was born into a generally open-minded society.

My company work in Saudi and I've been there a couple of times. Horrible, strange place full of people with an inability to think for themselves, but follow religion and the king like slaves.

That said, multinational companies do business everywhere; at the end of the day almost every country has human rights issues of some sort so it's unrealistic to expect the company to take politics or human rights into account - otherwise they'd be restricted to doing business to just a few countries. If anything, integration from those companies might help to improve human rights. New technology (computers, internet, social networking, mobile phones) is generally considered by human rights groups as a positive contribution to countries where people are oppressed.

That said our company has a policy not to do business with two countries - North Korea and Myanmar (Burma) but I guess that's because they are too closed to possibly do business with.

SwanSky

Madam_X wrote: »

It's not a feminist issue IMO, it's a human rights one concerning people who happen to be female.

I agree with most of what you've said Madam_X, but this point jumps out at me. This absolutely is a feminist issue, because these women are being discriminated against because they're women. That makes it a feminist issue.

Madam_X

SwanSky, I do see what you're saying, but I suppose my point is that one doesn't have to be a feminist or subscribe to feminist principles to deem it a serious and frightening issue. I would hate for it to be dismissed as just something for "the feminists to get worked up about" (you know the attitude I'm talking about). I know it's not your intention whatsoever, but I think considering it a feminist issue is a bit reductionist.
I suppose I would view it as a human rights issue, encompassing a feminist one.

Victor

SwanSky wrote: »

I agree with most of what you've said Madam_X, but this point jumps out at me. This absolutely is a feminist issue, because these women are being discriminated against because they're women. That makes it a feminist issue.

To only frame it as a feminist because they're women would be misunderstanding the broad church that is feminism. Feminism demands fair treatment of everyone.

Regardless, if you aren't a (male) member of the House of Saud of good standing, you will be discriminated against. Profoundly - your employer keeps your passport (not just your visa), you aren't allowed practice your religion (unless it's Islam), there are few voting rights and some workers are treated essentially as slaves. While in some senses, Saudi Arabia is 200 years behind Ireland when it comes to rights, in others it is more like 600-800 years.

It also isn't just about rights, there is also a huge power imbalance - the core 2,000 members of the House of Saud are worth an average of US$700 million **each**. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Saud#Wealth

shalalala

I would be fuming. If I were you I would send an email from an account set up specifically for that. Don't put your name or anything on it.

Stheno

A Primal Nut wrote: »

That said our company has a policy not to do business with two countries - North Korea and Myanmar (Burma) but I guess that's because they are too closed to possibly do business with.

It could also be due to restrictions placed by your companies home country on where it is acceptable to do business.

When I worked in US multinationals, we'd to regularly do training on what countries were on the prohibited list depending on who'd be up to no good according to the U.S.

I've worked in lots of companies who did business in Saudi, to be honest, as they were global they did business all over the world, and it never bothered me.

I've plenty of female peers/colleagues who have worked all over the Middle East (Saudi excepted) and most of them disliked it.

SwanSky

Victor wrote: »

To only frame it as a feminist because they're women would be misunderstanding the broad church that is feminism. Feminism demands fair treatment of everyone.

Yes, it does. The dictionary definition of the term 'feminism' however is 'The advocacy of women's rights on the grounds of sexual equality'.

Feminism concerns itself with women being treated equally on the grounds of sexual equality because, in a global sense, we very often are not. The banning of Saudi women from driving applies to all women there, irrespective of their social status or any other considerations, and rests only on the fact of their sex. This makes the issue a clear-cut case of sexism, which in turn makes it a feminist issue.

This does not at all mean that it is not also a human rights issue; of course it is. Females are humans after all!

@Madam_X, I know exactly the dismissive attitude you are talking about. It's just that I refuse to be dismissed. Imagine if people in the past who've had to fight for rights denied to them on racial or religious grounds were told that they had no right to assert their opposition to racism or anti-semitism etc, but instead frame their opposition only under the banner of human rights issues, and ignore the context in which those rights were being denied. How ridiculous would that be?

What is going on in Saudi is sexism, pure and simple, and we should not ignore the context of that oppression any more than the context of any oppression that has ever existed anywhere. I also think it's very telling that, as women, we are expected to.