Remington 700 help

bravestar

So guys I have a remington 700 PSS in .223 with a 26" 1/9 heavy barrel. It was wearing a cheap scope (more on the later). This was easily a 1/2 MOA gun when I did my bit.

I decided the hs precesion stock would look better in OD green. So off I took it and what do ya know, it does look better!

So back on the action goes and off we go to shoot. Groups are all over the shop so I figure I've messed up on the action screws. I get a torque wrench and use the recommended specs. Still all over the place! Can barely even stay on paper.

So I figure it might be the scope and as luck would have it a nightforce comes along for good money.

On she goes to the rifle and still all over the shop! So after fiddling with every torque spec I can find the best I can get is this... A ten shot example of the problem at 100 yards.

Point of aim is a dot in center of page. This is the point of aim for every shot.

Shots 1,3,5,7,9 are two inches above dot

Shots 2,4,6,8,10 are two inches below dot.

The two groups themselves are almost sub MOA. But why am I getting two distinctly different groups???

I've tried every torque setting so unless my wrench is a POS I'm stumped.

The only thing I can think of is that there were two problems.

1. My torque setting which are now ok and causes problem 2. Scope rings to manifest itself.

Anyone ever had a gun that did this or have any ideas for a solution? I'd like to try avoid buying new rings but if I must then I must. I'm currently using Burris extreme tactical rings

Cheers
Paul

ormondprop

What scope rings and what make bases have you on it, what ammo are you using, are you using a mod? How does your crown look? And how often do you clean the barrel, and do you clean it properly with solvent or just oil and a pull through?

Just saw you said burris extreme rings, they should be good enough, what make bases have you on it? And did you check the bases were tight

jingojonson

Hi there

Is your barrel free floating (ie is it touching the stock). You can check this with a 5 euro note. IT should be able to slide the whole way up to the pillar.
If its touching it'll change the harmonics and may be off

bravestar

ormondprop wrote: »

What scope rings and what make bases have you on it, what ammo are you using, are you using a mod? How does your crown look? And how often do you clean the barrel, and do you clean it properly with solvent or just oil and a pull through?

Just saw you said burris extreme rings, they should be good enough, what make bases have you on it? And did you check the bases were tight

Yes I'm using a mod. This behaviour happens with and without it.

The same behaviour happens if I'm using tulammo, Winchester, 75gr hornadys etc it appears to be unaffected by ammo.

The crown appears to be fine to my eye. I have tried it clean as a whistle, ie carbon cleaned out, copper cleaned out, dry patched and also shot it dirty like now, it has about 300 rounds down it. No difference

The barrel is free floated and confirmed as such.

The base though was on the gun when I got it so I do not know its make. I can say that one of the four screws, the head of it was a bit mangled and as such you cannot tighten it a lot. Snug yes but not super tight. I changed this to a middle position rather than the end.

Do you think that might be the culprit? Would the other 3 screws not be enough to hold it?

ormondprop

Was it shooting fine after you got it threaded or has it always been threaded?
It sounds like a problem with mounts so it could be your torque wrench so maybe check tightness with a normal wrench, if all seem tight maybe dismantle everything, take off stock, make sure no paint got onto where the action sits, take apart rings and bases, put all back together again, if it doesn't work try new mounts and bases, thats what i'd try anyway

bravestar

ormondprop wrote: »

Was it shooting fine after you got it threaded or has it always been threaded?
It sounds like a problem with mounts so it could be your torque wrench so maybe check tightness with a normal wrench, if all seem tight maybe dismantle everything, take off stock, make sure no paint got onto where the action sits, take apart rings and bases, put all back together again, if it doesn't work try new mounts and bases, thats what i'd try anyway

Been threaded since I got it. Going to replace the screw on the base. It just seems like something is sliding back and fourth with recoil creating these two groups. I've tried pulling it all apart and putting it back together.

ormondprop

Give it a go and let us know how you get on, you have nothing to lose anyway if its not shooting well now so you might aswell take it of and replace the screw, are they the same mounts and base you used with your old scope? When painting the stock did you cover the action inlet of the stock

Cass

Always work backwards.

All this started after you aktered the stock. So if the rifle was firing fine before you changed the stock then the problem is something to do with the stock. Whether, as said, above it is not fully free floating, whether the screws are not torqued as they were before removing them is something only you would know. I know none of my rifles are torqued to factory specs. I always tweak them as soon as i get the rifle. It can improve the groups, but if done incorrectly it can cause the groups to open up.

I highly doubt the crown has anything to do with it. If it was firing fine before hand then unless you have gone at the crown with a file nothing can cause the effect you are getting.


As i said at the start of the post work backwards. What did you remove when taking off the stock? Look at these first. So if you took the barreled action out of the stock look at the screws. Make sure they are in the correct hole/ Then if you took the scope with rings off check to make sure they are fitted back correctly, and tightly. Three screws, especially in a .223 is enough to hold is securely. Next test the stock to make sure it is free floated. It was suggested above to use a fiver, but i always get an A4 sheet, fold it in half, and run this up. You want more than the width of a piece of paper between the stock and barrel. Otherwise the vibration of the barrel when fired can still make contact with the stock.

A mod can only screw on the one way. If you make a mark on the mod and barrel, and screw it on and off a dozen times it will always sit back on the same way. If the mod was interfering with the harmonics then it would have done so before now. So you can almost discount the mod as a problem.


If unsure the best thing to do is go back to basics. Start by sanding some material out of the barrel channel of the stock. Sand a little at a time, and test each time. If unsure bring to a competent person to have this done. Although it is something you can do yourself just be careful, and go slow.

.243

check the area on the stock where the bolt handle channel is and make sure the bolt arm is free floating too when in the down position

bravestar

Kev and everyone else, thanks for your help. I'm going to pull the barreled action now and get sanding lightly and tomorrow ill get a new fourth screw for the base just to check every box along the way. .going to check around te bolt handle too, never thought of that!

Cass

You would ideally want 2mm at least "space" so sand a little then re-fit the stock, and do the paper test, and then fire to check for improvement.

Also if you are stuck i have spare mount screws. Just give me a shout and i'll send you on a couple.

bravestar

Just pulled her apart there. Found some paint on the aluminium bedding block of the HS precision stock so got rid of all that and any other paint that wasnt on the exterior. Sanded away all the paint from the barrel channel and then some, folded A4 slides freely all the way up. Checked the mount and I seriously doubt that is the problem, feels like its welded in place! Even with the dodgy scew. Thanks for the offer Kev.

Just had a thought. If the top half of my rings were turned 180 degrees before i mounted them, or if the two top halves got swapped. Could that create this kind of repeatable inconsistency? There is a possibility the missus mixed them up when she was moving them away from the baby.

Cass

bravestar wrote: »

Just had a thought. If the top half of my rings were turned 180 degrees before i mounted them, or if the two top halves got swapped. Could that create this kind of repeatable inconsistency?

When rings are reversed they can cause a change in POI, but if they were working before you altered the stock they should hold even if reversed. So while it may cause a POI change it should be consistent.

It seems as though you have checked everything, removed all excess material, and all screws are tight. The only way to check it is to re-assemble, and test fire. If the problem persists then it's a case of going back over everything from top to bottom.

I find when such a problem appears it is always the last thing you altered, and is usually a simple problem. If it were anything more serious such as a crown, mod, etc then it would have given signs before now. They usually don't just go wrong.

bravestar

Ezridax wrote: »

When rings are reversed they can cause a change in POI, but if they were working before you altered the stock they should hold even if reversed. So while it may cause a POI change it should be consistent.

It seems as though you have checked everything, removed all excess material, and all screws are tight. The only way to check it is to re-assemble, and test fire. If the problem persists then it's a case of going back over everything from top to bottom.

I find when such a problem appears it is always the last thing you altered, and is usually a simple problem. If it were anything more serious such as a crown, mod, etc then it would have given signs before now. They usually don't just go wrong.

Have her all back together now so hopefully will get out over the next few days to test it out. Its actually grouping quite well, even with cheap Russian ammo, only problem is its creating 2, very consistent, groups instead of one. Well if I ever need to shoot over anything or under it, im sorted

Cass

We're still talking abput your rifle, right.

Have you tried Eley Alphamax in her.
















/ i'll get my coat.

bravestar

Ezridax wrote: »

We're still talking abput your rifle, right.

Have you tried Eley Alphamax in her.
















/ i'll get my coat.

Don't let the door hit you...


As it stands my Remington 870 is probably more accurate!

Just a thought, is it possible that the 2 groups are being created by a round's sequence in the internal magazine? Since shot 1 and 3 will go together, likewise shot 2 and 4.

Cass

One way to figure it out is to single feed the rounds. Don't use the mag. If they all group there is your issue. If not and they continue to "split" then the mag is not an issue.

Also did it do this before. As the mag, and feeding, is the same if the mag were an issue it would have occurred before now.

bravestar

Ezridax wrote: »

One way to figure it out is to single feed the rounds. Don't use the mag. If they all group there is your issue. If not and they continue to "split" then the mag is not an issue.

Also did it do this before. As the mag, and feeding, is the same if the mag were an issue it would have occurred before now.

Yeah gonna try a little experiment re: mag/manual feeding.

No it didn't do it before I separated the stock and barreled action, but watching videos they show the action+stock being placed together then the internal mag being inserted.

I had the internal mag on the action and then placed the stock on. It may be nothing, but at this stage i'm willing to try anything on the off chance it is creating some sort of inconsistency.

bravestar

Quick update.

Cleaned any and all paint out of action recess, recoil lug area, barrel channel. Loaded by hand and using magazine.

Absolutely zero difference. Still creating two separate groups. Tried tuning tensions on front and rear action screws,from barely in to all the way up to my hand is going to fall off tightness. No change.

Went as far as I am comfortable with all screws/ bolts on scope rings. No difference. The mystery continues. Going to try pop action into different stock in an attempt to isolate problem.

Vegeta

What are you shooting it from? bags or bi-pod?

If it's a bi-pod and you're using forward pressure on it, get a friend to check if it's free floating in your shooting position (goes without saying but gun unloaded). It's all well and good being free floated when in your lap with no force acting on the stock but it needs to be free floating when there's some pressure being applied to the stock.

Cass

Before you go the stock route try a different scope. Borrow a scope of a friend. The make or model does not matter a damn. Remove your scope, and put on the other one.

Fire two groups of five shots, and see if there is any difference. If not then try the stock. If there is then your scope may be an issue.

I have this once. Tried everything, but discovered (after many rounds) that my new scope did actually break. I did not consider it before as it was new, but it does happen.

bravestar

Thanks for the replies guys.

Bipod loading was one of the first things I checked. With or without bipod, shooting on bags, off hand, the consistent up down behaviour remains. Thanks for the suggestion though.

Kev, this is currently the second scope I have had on this trifle with this problem present. At first I thought it was the scope cuz it was a cheap POS, but the nightforce I have on now has not made any difference.

Cass

bravestar wrote: »

Kev, this is currently the second scope I have had on this trifle with this problem present. .

Ah. Did not know that. Was it mentioned above? f so apologies i either forgot or missed it.

So the only thing you have altered is the stock. The ammo, scope, rings, etc are all the same, and the problem persists?

It's very hard to identify a problem from verbal description. Would like to get a look at it.

Another solution might be to undo the action/barrel. Place tip-ex or some other easily removable marker on the barrel/action, etc and then press it down into stock. Leave for a few seconds, and remove the action again. See if the tip ex leaves impressions/marks on the stock. Could be points of contact that you cannot see but are causing issues all the same.

bravestar

Cass wrote: »

Ah. Did not know that. Was it mentioned above? f so apologies i either forgot or missed it.

So the only thing you have altered is the stock. The ammo, scope, rings, etc are all the same, and the problem persists?

It's very hard to identify a problem from verbal description. Would like to get a look at it.

Another solution might be to undo the action/barrel. Place tip-ex or some other easily removable marker on the barrel/action, etc and then press it down into stock. Leave for a few seconds, and remove the action again. See if the tip ex leaves impressions/marks on the stock. Could be points of contact that you cannot see but are causing issues all the same.

No warrys man, I probably forgot to mention it

Going to give the marker thing a try next time I get a chance, I've wasted some amount of ammo trying to sort this!

I think I have one or two of the targets I shot the other day with each shot numbered. It may show the whole up down thing better than I am explaining it. Will try post em up later on tonight.

Kinzig

bravestar wrote: »

Have her all back together now so hopefully will get out over the next few days to test it out. Its actually grouping quite well, even with cheap Russian ammo, only problem is its creating 2, very consistent, groups instead of one. Well if I ever need to shoot over anything or under it, im sorted

The shooting two distinct groups thing is pointing to a bedding problem...

bravestar

Kinzig wrote: »

The shooting two distinct groups thing is pointing to a bedding problem...

It's a hs precision stock with the aluminium bedding block. While it sounds nice it can clearly be seen that only a small amount of the action actually touches this "block" by the wear marks on the bottom of the action.

I am intending to try pick up a cheap stock and see what happens. If the problem is removed I might consider getting a bedding job done on this stock or do what I plan on doing eventually and get something like an AICS or mcrees chassis.

ejg

My guess would be that it is not the stock. 223's are not that finicky with a stock issue.
Barrel tight?
Correct screws for mounts? If the front ones bottom out you'd get double groups like that. Screws might be tight while mount isn't.
I prefer to bed my remmy rails.

edi

bravestar

ejg wrote: »

My guess would be that it is not the stock. 223's are not that finicky with a stock issue.
Barrel tight?
Correct screws for mounts? If the front ones bottom out you'd get double groups like that. Screws might be tight while mount isn't.
I prefer to bed my remmy rails.

edi

Edi, thanks for the reply. The barrel appears to be tight, never noticed any movement. Is there anything in particular I should check?

The mount appears tight, as in I cannot physically move it and if I pick the rifle up by the mount and shake it about a little there is no perceived or felt movement. Could it still be loose even though I can't see any movement?

On a side note, when the barreled action is placed into the stock, without inserting the action screws. There is a serious amount of rotational play and about a half inch of forward/backward play. Anyone know if that's normal in a hs precision stock?

When the action screws are inserted it aligns itself with regards to the rotation but there is still a small amount of forward/backward play until the screws are Torqued down.

I can say that the amount of torque applied to the action screws directly affects how far the 2 groups that form are apart. But just as they are getting close, I'm applying so much force that my tools are slipping out of the screw heads and I don't want to ruin them by chancing tightening them more ( although I don't think I physically can)

Over the coming days I'm going to mount the scope/rings from another one of my rifles onto the pic rail to 100% eliminate the possibility of my 30mm rings being the problem.

Then all that will be left is the stock and picatinny rail to look at.

Edit: the pic rail is a 20moa one and thus is sloped. Could a prob with that easily lead to a problem like this given its slope? Maybe your spot on edi???

Cass

bravestar wrote: »

Could it still be loose even though I can't see any movement?

Absolutely.

I had a set of Opti-Lock rings/mounts on my Sauer, and to try and move them by hand was impossible however under recoil from a fired shot the POI would shift. The issue was a slightly loosened screw, plus it was a 30-06 so the recoil was noticeable.

Anyone know if that's normal in a hs precision stock?

The Father's Remmy sits in a HS stock with bedding block. When the action screws are out there is play in the barreled action. The screws, when tightened, eliminate this. However a bedding block is not the same a a bedded action. It helps in that it is slightly better than no block.

I can say that the amount of torque applied to the action screws directly affects how far the 2 groups that form are apart.

That is normal. My Savage, before being restocked, could be tweaked, and groups tightened or spread apart by playing with the torque settings of the action screws. This is why i said above are you sure you have the right screws in the right holes, and the correct torque setting. This can be the Remmy recommended settings, but tweaking these settings can improve or make the group worse/better.

Edit: the pic rail is a 20moa one and thus is sloped. Could a prob with that easily lead to a problem like this given its slope? Maybe your spot on edi???

The inclination of the scope will not lead to issues like this, but as Edi said if the screws are not suitable for the rail then it may appear tight but actually not.

When you swapped out the rail did you use the screws that came with the rail or did you use screws that were off the old mounts or from another source?

bravestar

Cass wrote: »

Absolutely.

I had a set of Opti-Lock rings/mounts on my Sauer, and to try and move them by hand was impossible however under recoil from a fired shot the POI would shift. The issue was a slightly loosened screw, plus it was a 30-06 so the recoil was noticeable.


The Father's Remmy sits in a HS stock with bedding block. When the action screws are out there is play in the barreled action. The screws, when tightened, eliminate this. However a bedding block is not the same a a bedded action. It helps in that it is slightly better than no block.


That is normal. My Savage, before being restocked, could be tweaked, and groups tightened or spread apart by playing with the torque settings of the action screws. This is why i said above are you sure you have the right screws in the right holes, and the correct torque setting. This can be the Remmy recommended settings, but tweaking these settings can improve or make the group worse/better.

The inclination of the scope will not lead to issues like this, but as Edi said if the screws are not suitable for the rail then it may appear tight but actually not.

When you swapped out the rail did you use the screws that came with the rail or did you use screws that were off the old mounts or from another source?

Thanks for taking an interest again Cass. The rail itself was on the gun when I got it, hence I don't know the make. I have never taken it off , only ever swapped the two frontmost screws positions, with each other.never touched the two rear screws except to make sure they were tightened.

Cass

Sorry about the delay in replying, but for some reason i'm not getting notifications of replies in this thread.

I would like to get a look at the rifle. Any chance of multiple photos of the rail, screws, stock, action/barrel, rings, etc.

bravestar

Cass wrote: »

Sorry about the delay in replying, but for some reason i'm not getting notifications of replies in this thread.

I would like to get a look at the rifle. Any chance of multiple photos of the rail, screws, stock, action/barrel, rings, etc.

I'll see what I can do man, back in work tomorrow. But on my next couple of days off i'll get the photo shoot on. Shaved or 80's style?

ejg

You only need roughly 0.06mm movement within the mounts to create around 2" at 100yd. (very rough guess)
Had a loose lens in a Leupold once that did 2".

Let Kevin have a look at it.
If you were down south we could look at it.
edi

bravestar

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=237259

The above link leads to a thread where a person had the exact same problem as me. I'm posting it because although it does not have a solution, it has a picture of 2 groups that illustrates my problem exactly.

Curiously, the poster is also using a rem 700 action in a hs precision stock with alu block.

ejg

You could do a quick bedding of the recoil lug area to try it out.
Even a quick setting epoxy would do.
edi

patsat

Jus went out today with my vssf ii in .223 ( also has a hs stock ) with the plan to confirm zero at 200 yards and then move back to 400 yards to extend my drop table and hopefully bust a few clays :cool:

Anyway at 200 yards I planned to fire 2 shots at one aim point (cold and clean barrel) and then a 3 shot group at a separate aim point. First shot was off paper but second shot hit the target. (had the scope still dialled in for 300 yards from previous day for the 1st shot :rolleyes:) Then I went on to shoot a 3 shot group at just over half an inch.

With zero confirmed and delighted with the small group I said I'd have a pot at the clays which from that position were 250 yards away....Dialled in the scope and bang....bullet strikes to the left....:mad: Fired another shot at a steel plate also at 250 and it strikes to the left but the elevation was perfect... Dialled in for the wind and took another shot at a clay. Bullet strikes over the clay, reloaded and again the bullet strikes over the clay

Fired again at the plate and the bullet strikes abouit 3 inches higher than poa . This thread came into my head so I went back to the 200 yards target to see was something similar happening.... It was :mad:

Gonna have to try get out again for an hour to see if this was a once off or not, I'll post a pic later to show what happened.

zeissman

patsat wrote: »

Jus went out today with my vssf ii in .223 ( also has a hs stock ) with the plan to confirm zero at 200 yards and then move back to 400 yards to extend my drop table and hopefully bust a few clays :cool:

Anyway at 200 yards I planned to fire 2 shots at one aim point (cold and clean barrel) and then a 3 shot group at a separate aim point. First shot was off paper but second shot hit the target. (had the scope still dialled in for 300 yards from previous day for the 1st shot :rolleyes:) Then I went on to shoot a 3 shot group at just over half an inch.

With zero confirmed and delighted with the small group I said I'd have a pot at the clays which from that position were 250 yards away....Dialled in the scope and bang....bullet strikes to the left....:mad: Fired another shot at a steel plate also at 250 and it strikes to the left but the elevation was perfect... Dialled in for the wind and took another shot at a clay. Bullet strikes over the clay, reloaded and again the bullet strikes over the clay

Fired again at the plate and the bullet strikes abouit 3 inches higher than poa . This thread came into my head so I went back to the 200 yards target to see was something similar happening.... It was :mad:

Gonna have to try get out again for an hour to see if this was a once off or not, I'll post a pic later to show what happened.

Did you let the barrel cool before shooting at the clays ?
I know a guy who bedded a couple of HS stocks and he said it did improve accuracy.

patsat

zeissman wrote: »

Did you let the barrel cool before shooting at the clays ?
I know a guy who bedded a couple of HS stocks and he said it did improve accuracy.

I didn't leave it cool but my shots weren't taken fast and the barrel didn't feel hot when I was putting my hand on it to check. I will get out again (probably not until next week though ) and check it again. Just gonna stay at 200 yards and fire a few groups, leaving time between each group.

bravestar

Patsat, I sent ya a pm there. I may have found the cause of my problem but have to confirm it.