The Borg - An ethical/moral discussion...

Myrddin

Warning - Long post alert, raise shields!

I've been mulling over this for the last while, & I'd be interested in hearing the thoughts & musings of others, regards the Borg. On the outside, at a nuts & bolts level, the concept of the Borg is a terrifying one. A 'malevolent' force, thats hell bent on the acquisition of technology, that can steal your body, turn you into one of them, & cast aside your very essence. You, your personality, your dreams, your hopes, your fears, everything that makes you, you...will be forever lost while your body marches around doing whatever a hive mind sees fit for it to do. I dunno about anyone else, but thats a damned scary prospect.

Having watched the various episodes & film that deal with the Borg, I often find myself trying to quantify them as an enemy. Its not easy to do, as quite often you have newer episodes totally contradicting what we knew of the Borg from older episodes. The goal posts seem to change, moral quandaries abound, & ultimately I find myself forming an opinion that can change from episode to episode. Questions like:

1) Who are the Borg
2) What do they want
3) Are they evil?
4) Are they even people?
5) Is it right or wrong to kill them?
6) Was Picard right or wrong not to exterminate them?
7) Who is the Queen?
8) If there's a Queen, where's the collective consciousness?
9) Is the Queen herself, the collective consciousness?
10) If I were assimilated, am I Borg or Human?

I'll attempt to use this post to garner some understanding of my own ideas of what the Borg are. As of writing this, I'm still unsure, but by the end of the post, maybe it will become clearer to me & my mind will probably change as I write, so I'm open to all points for & against lets say...& it'd be interesting to here others perspective on my thoughts & indeed their own too.

1) Who are the Borg

The Borg are no one species, at least not anymore. It is conceivable that they began as one race, & at some stage developed the assimilation process to add members of other species to their own. They are now a group/collective of many different species, who are all cybernetically enhanced with a multitude of technological implants, which serve to make what was once an individual, now into a drone. You can safely suggest that the vast majority of the people assimilated by the Borg, were done so against their will.

As a drone, the persons mind is connected to the collective consciousness of every other drone, ultimately adding to the abilities of the whole. On a very simple level, if a mathematician were assimilated, all of that persons knowledge & experience would be added to the collective, increasing the mathematical abilities of every other drone {thats on a really simple level}. The body of this assimilated person, is fitted with transceivers, sensors, implants etc etc which all have specific functions, which help the new drone to carry out its functions. Different drones are assigned to different areas, functions etc & are outfitted as such.

However, from the data in Star Trek canon, we also know that once the persons conscious mind has been added to the collective, the individuality that made that person themselves to begin with, is then removed. The person, is lost. All of the persons memories, knowledge & experiences are saved in the collective, but not in the mind of the person, where they belong. The person becomes in essence, a drone. A mindless automaton, who's actions are dictated by an exterior consciousness. When Data hacked into the Borg collective consciousness through Locutus, he seen it was structured into a command type setup, 'Defense, Assimilation, Regeneration2 etc etc. A very organized & logical approach, devoid of any conflict.

Things get somewhat complicated though, when your in a scenario where a Borg drone is freed from the collective. In almost all cases, the drone at first has no idea how to function outside of the collective. It usually puts up a big fight to return to the collective consciousness, & will try its utmost to do so. But, it will eventually adapt to the environment its in, & with some effort, can regain a sense of individuality again. We've never seen that it can become the person it was before being assimilated, but we've seen the likes of Hugh & Seven, develop new personalities, & in essence, at least become human again.

So thats basically who the Borg are, they were once people, they usually get assimilated against their will, the person is then 'uploaded' & wiped from the body and lost forever. But if free'd, with enough time, can develop a new personality & regain their individuality again.


2) What do they want

The Borg have a sole driving force, to assimilate technology & raw materials. We've seen them assimilate ships, colonies, & even planets. If they encounter a technology new to them, or worth of assimilation, they will do so. Thats when we here the infamous words, "We are the Borg. You will be assimilated. Resistance is futile".

The Borg don't fight wars for resources, money, power, or any other traditional reason...they see what they want, & they take it. Similarly, if they encounter a ship/species/technology not worth assimilating, they will leave it be. You could in theory visit their ship & walk freely around it, because unless your a threat or have something they want, they'll leave you alone.

Because of this, its virtually impossible to establish any kind of diplomatic relations with the Borg, almost impossible to reason with them, & negotiation is likely to fall on very deaf ears. This is one of the reasons its difficult to sometimes understand the Borg, rather than being an evil aggressor, they're more like a computer virus...destructive, but its just doing what it was designed to do.


3) Are they evil?

From everything we know in canon, no, I don't think they are. To be evil, you have to have a moral compass in the first place. The Borg, rather than being evil, as I mentioned above, seem more like a pre-programmed force, carrying out a directive. Sure, often that directive can cost millions of lives, but there's no emotion in it from the Borg end. The drones don't understand that they might be killing the parents of a family, or wiping out an entire civilization, they're simply programmed to carry out a task to completion. There's no success, reward, or joy in a victory for them, they simply move on to the next objective.

Their acts can appear evil, taking people against their will, destroying everything in their wake, & moving on to the next unfortunate civilization to do the same again. But again, the drones behind the attacks are almost always the very victims of an attack upon themselves, now enslaved & obliged to carry out same to other people...& to make matters worse, they're not even aware they're doing it as that person is now a simple drone soldier.

So no, I personally don't see them as evil. I see it as unfortunate, & sad, but evil? No.


4) Are they even people?

From what I've wrote above, I'd conclude so far that no, they are not individual people once they are assimilated. They were people, & could be people again, but as an active drone, I don't think I'd quantify what they exist as, as a person. There's no individual thought, idea, notion...it all comes to the drones from an exterior mind....the mind of every other drone out there.

What is a person? To me & in a nutshell, a sentient being that makes decisions based on past experience & gut instinct, has the ability to empathize, show compassion, & has an open mind to allow free thought. Thats basically what I'd describe as the traditional definition of a 'person' in the context of humanity. I can't say a Borg drone satisfies any or all of these parameters for me. A Borg drone won't feel remorse about killing a person, ten people, or a thousand people. It won't shed a single tear for the loss of an entire culture, it won't feel joy at these prospects either, as I'd expect an evil person to do. Not good, not evil, not someone.

Are they people? I'm gonna go with no for this one. I've acknowledged that if disconnected, this can & does change, but as active drones, no.


5) Is it right or wrong to kill them?

I ask this question in the context of a situation where its not self defense, is it right to destroy Borg where they otherwise don't pose a current threat. Take the small ship Voyager beamed a torpedo onto, was that right or wrong?

It it was wrong? Why was it wrong? More often than not, these smaller ships are scouts, & if they encounter anything the Borg might deem interesting, they can either assimilate it. If they can't do that, they'll always send a message to nearby Borg vessels & they'll come to assimilate it. So, by not destroying them on sight, are you putting the lives of others at risk, by letting these scouts wander around where they'll eventually find something/someone and take them? Yes, I suppose you kind of are putting others at risk by not destroying the Borg. But the human in me, says its still wrong...hmm.

Was it right to kill them? If so, why? Is it justification enough to kill them, knowing you've probably saved the lives of others and/or spared them assimilation? My moral compass says its wrong the more I think of it, but why is that? I'm happy enough to conclude that as drones, they're essentially mindless slaves so why even ponder the question? Maybe its another way to further show why the line between Borg & humanity is a stark one.

Is it right to kill them in this case? I'm gonna go with no. Its not the human thing to do, it is justifiable, but that doesn't make it right.


6) Was Picard right or wrong not to exterminate them?

Well the great man himself obviously thought in the end he was right not to, so lets explore why. At the beginning, the idea was to introduce what I'll very basically call a computer virus into the Borg collective consciousness. It was designed to spread from drone to drone, locking each drone in a permanent & unending cycle of analysis of a paradoxical object. It would essentially cause the whole collective, once sufficiently spread, to cease functioning. A weapon of mass destruction, for want of better terminology.

At the beginning, Picard was very open to this idea. Like some of my observations above, he saw the Borg as simply mindless automatons, no soul, no personality, no love, no hate...but fiercely dangerous. He was all go for introducing this weapon.

Later on in the episode, Picard met with Hugh. A single Borg who the Enterprise rescued from a downed Borg vessel. Hugh once freed of his shackles, began to demonstrate awareness, sentience, & an almost child like view of the world. This clouded Picards view somewhat of the plan, & ultimately, he chose to rise above his fears & take a very moral, ethical decision...not to introduce the weapon. He sen that when Borg are free'd, there's hope for such people. It would be wrong, to simply exterminate them, & doing so in that manner, would be no better than the Borg themselves.

Was he right not to exterminate the Borg? As a human being, yes, most definitely.


7) Who is the Queen?

This one still confuses me. The concept of a Borg Queen was introduced in the film, First Contact. Here, contrary to everything that went before it, we seen first hand that the Borg have a clear 'leader'. Previously, my understanding that there was a collective consciousness, a unification of all the minds of all Borg, speaking in one harmonious voice, objective & goal. Now, it seems that notion isn't quite accurate. There is a Queen, amongst the hive.

To what end? In Voyager & First Contact, the Borg Queen is very individual. She speaks with one mind, one voice, but has control of the whole hive with a single thought. Not only that, the Queen was killed in First Contact, but is seemingly still around in Voyager. This tells me her body is superfluous, it can be built anywhere...but her consciousness lives in the collective itself. A weird notion, that an individual can live inside a void of individuality, but whoever said understanding the Borg was easy!

To this day, I'm not sure who the Borg Queen is. All I know is, she isn't a drone, she can be rebuilt anywhere there's Borg, & she controls the mindless horde with her own mind.


8) If there's a Queen, where's the collective consciousness?

Somehow, they're one & the same? I'm not sure the hierarchical nature of the Borg is ever properly explained in canon. This remains unanswered for me.


9) Is the Queen herself, the collective consciousness?

This is one notion that might explain it. Could it be, that the entire collective consciousness, is manifested into one body, one mind? Perhaps the Queen literally is, the collective consciousness? She uses odd terminology if that is so, the use of "I" is heavy. However, in my own limited mind...I think thats the way I'll choose to view the Borg Queen, she is all Borg.


10) If I were assimilated, am I Borg or Human?

If my essence were lost to the Borg, I feel I'd definitely be Borg rather than a prisoner/slave to them. Implying prisoner/slave, means someone kept against their will, but as a drone, there is no will. The person is gone, voided. If I were assimilated, before it happened I'd definitely be shouting 'kill me now!', & I'd condone the act very much so. Not that anyone wishes to be a drone, but those stuck in a moral grey area should perhaps ask the question to themselves, would you be happy as a drone assimilating people? Or would you prefer if someone else 'put you out of your misery'?

To conclude, I think Picard got it right, & I don't think they should be killed/destroyed if there's no danger present. But, if I were a drone, I'd have no problem with those that took said action against me.

Confuddled, confused ramblings of a fan, trying to understand something, but I'd be interested in other ramblings to maybe help explain my own too

norrie rugger

I pretty much agree with your assessment of the Queen.
She is the embodyment of the collective. There was no one person/drone that "rose" to the surface of the collective but that "she" is the collective itself.
We see a body and think of the original owner of the body, I think that the body is a meaningless avatar

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

every borg ship you won't destroy is a ship/planet/civilisation you've doomed to destruction. i'd agree you couldn't really call them evil, they're more of a force of nature but outside of an easy foolproof method to un-assimilate drones the priority every time a ship is spotted should be to destroy it with an ultimate goal of destroying the entire collective. They can't be reasoned with, they can't sign a treaty (or won't, whatever ) acknowledging borders they will do what they do and there's no choice but to stop them

i think picard was 100% in the wrong there. I see why he chose as he did but he doomed billions of lives because he was uncomfortable with the idea of smoking out a bee hive.

--edit

also **** the queen. she was the worst thing to happen to the borg. ruined the entire idea of them so the uninitiated could have a nice and easy handle on the borg in first contact.

norrie rugger

They are a virus and should be destroyed IMHO. I too understand Picard's decision but I do think that it was the wrong one.
Until a drone has been freed then they are a weapon of mass destruction. It only takes one drone to assimilate a ship/planet.

Also, thinking of the potential of "killing" all the people that the drones could be? They probably fought to the end to not be drones, destroying the collective would free them from a fate worse than death.

Kiith

They should be destroyed. I understand Picard's decision on a moral level, but try to explain that moral reason to the countless civilizations that have been utterly wiped out by the Borg, or the millions/billions/trillions of people who have been assimilated.

EnterNow wrote: »

To conclude, I think Picard got it right, & I don't think they should be killed/destroyed if there's no danger present. But, if I were a drone, I'd have no problem with those that took said action against me.

Can there ever not be a danger though? They aren't going to stop, and they'll take every opportunity to assimilate any advanced species they can find. Even if Starfleet makes a massive jump in tech, one mistake and the Borg are on equal/more advanced footing.

Imo, the risk does not justify it. Too many lives are at risk. If you have a chance to wipe them out, you damn well take it.

Indricotherium

Who is the Queen?

My interpretation of how the hive mind works is that it needs a single directing force.

It is my belief that the queen is one of two things.

I think when it comes to the borg the audience tends to fall into a point of view trap, and accept what the starfleet characters on screen are saying / believing.

1) the strongest individual that has been assimilated, this personality automatcally loats to the top ofthe borg collective conciousness and directs it.

When other strong personalities are assimillated they can disrupt the current queen and cause a conflict within the collective, as has been seen with hugh, and possibly with picard.

Picards personality taking over from the queen would explain why it wsa so easy to remove him from the collective, as well as why the queen did not want him back. She'd already fought that battle and come close to losing.

This assumes that the explanations excepted by the characters are all wrong of course.

2) the borg queen is a construct. It is an amalgamation of the strongest minds ever assimillated, in a mini collective,kept within unimatrix 1 that directs the borg.

This would explain the queens apparent obsessions with indivisuals; seven of nine, data, Picard. She needs them to improve her decision making / processing power

Indricotherium

norrie rugger wrote: »

a fate worse than death.

People freed from the collective have often spoken of it in terms of awe.

Seven of nine has compared it to having eternal life.

Far from a fate worse than death, the borg collective is eternal life, freed from corporeal needs.

Kiith

Indricotherium wrote: »

Far from a fate worse than death, the borg collective is eternal life, freed from corporeal needs.

You pretty much cease to exist though, and only 'live' to serve the Borg. I don't see how that's life.

seamus

With first contact, I always assumed that the Queen was no-one and everyone. A complete fabrication of the collective for the purposes of interacting with individual species on a one-to-one level. Even the way she's constructed from primarily technological parts and is more "Borg" than most would seem to indicate that she's was never an assimilated individual.

Voyager then shat all over this of course and she said she was from a particular species, and she was shown intact and vocally directing individual drones even when there was no-one else around.

I'd still be inclined to say that she is the embodiment of the Borg, but perhaps a "ghost in the machine" of sorts. An individual personality with clear emotions and desires which has appeared out of the soup of individuals assimilated by the Borg. Picard even remarks that "It wasn't enough that you assimilate me... I had to give myself freely to the Borg. To you!". Maybe the Borg queen is the embodiment of the Borg flaws, the perfection they seek to attain is to eliminate the need for the queen.

norrie rugger

Also have no self determination and kill countless people.

Myrddin

Kiith wrote: »

You pretty much cease to exist though, and only 'live' to serve the Borg. I don't see how that's life.

I'd have to agree with this, if one were to define 'life', a Borg collective wouldn't be top of the list exactly.

Indricotherium

Kiith wrote: »

You pretty much cease to exist though, and only 'live' to serve the Borg. I don't see how that's life.

And yet, before starfleet brainwashing sets in, most people seperated from the collective, do their utmost to rejoin it.

Kiith

I think if you're talking about brainwashing, the group who implant machines into your brain to force you to do what they want are worse than the group who ask you to not be a genocidal drone :P

Myrddin

Indricotherium wrote: »

And yet, before starfleet brainwashing sets in, most people separated from the collective, do their utmost to rejoin it.

I'd say thats more due to an enormous sense of fear of the unknown kicks in. I'd be pretty sure there's a valid psychological reason for the desire to rejoin the collective, rather than the quality of life inside the collective.

'Starfleet brainwashing' aside, I think its safe to assume the Borg are a tool to help us explore the human condition...I don't think its a case that we just simply havn't heard their side of the story.

Myrddin

Indricotherium wrote: »

And yet, before starfleet brainwashing sets in, most people seperated from the collective, do their utmost to rejoin it.

To use an analogy, a heroin addict who is trying to come off the drug, will usually go through a phase where they will do anything to use the drug again. The doesn't mean there's an untold, positive & happy side of life to using heroin, it just means at a basic level, there's a period of adjustment to endure, even when moving from a sorry existence, to one of achievement & reward.

The Borg collective consciousness, by my own personal definition, is not 'life'..but therin lies the quandary...if thats the case, why do I agree with Picards decision? Thats the point of this thread for me really, to try understand peoples differing approaches to the Borg. Yours does seem a, lets say, intruiging one.

Goldstein

@EnterNow This needs to go on your Santa list stat! It answers some of those questions very satisfactorily.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Destiny-Star-Trek-David-Mack/dp/1451657242/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1355168302&sr=8-6

Omnibus edition:

Myrddin

Hmm, non canon explanations. While interesting, they're no more correct than anyones guess really. I'm sure the book is a good read, but as I've said before about non canon & why I can't get into it, it just seems too contrived. Take the description for example:

In Gods of Night, blitzkrieg attacks by the Borg leave entire worlds aflame. No one knows how they are slipping past Starfleet's defences, so Captain Jean-Luc Picard and the crew of the Enterprise have to find out-and put a stop to it.

The reason the Borg 'slip' past Starfleets defenses, it because there is none against them!

In Mere Mortals, the Borgs have found a secret passage through subspace and are using it to attack the Federation. But the passage is one of many that the Enterprise crew finds inside a nebula, and Captain Picard and Captain Ezri Dax must find the right one-and lead a counter strike to stop the impending Borg invasion.

Nothing secret about sub space passages. Oh look, another hub of passages found inside a nebula...thats certainly original. Captain Ezri Dax?? Seriously? By the time Exri made Captain, Picard surely wouldn't be still floating around saving the galaxy.

In Lost Souls, an armada of several thousand Borg cubes has wiped out a fleet of ships sent by the Federation and its allies. But the Collective's goal this time isn't assimilation-it's extermination. Destruction or salvation-only one can be her final Destiny.

Several thousand Borg cubes? There's not a hope in any canon that Starfleet would withstand that. Oh I'm sure its probably future tech or somesuch, but if your on equal footing with the Borg, one assimilated ship ends that balance quite swiftly.

Nevertheless, it seems I'm on my own with this problem with non canon stuff, so I will try pick up the novel & give it a read...cheers!

norrie rugger

EnterNow wrote: »

The reason the Borg 'slip' past Starfleets defenses, it because there is none against them!
Explained also


Nothing secret about sub space passages. Oh look, another hub of passages found inside a nebula...thats certainly original. Captain Ezri Dax?? Seriously? By the time Exri made Captain, Picard surely wouldn't be still floating around saving the galaxy.
This is explained well


Several thousand Borg cubes? There's not a hope in any canon that Starfleet would withstand that. Oh I'm sure its probably future tech or somesuch, but if your on equal footing with the Borg, one assimilated ship ends that balance quite swiftly.
Don't forget Endgame tech
Beyond that also explained

Couple of things there.
They all get well explained and manage to answer some of the Voyager balls ups too.

I am not one for Trek Lit either but I really did enjoy this series of novels

ALSO
buy/download/whatever a copy of "A Stitch in Time" based on Garak and written by Andrew Robinson!!!!

GreenWolfe

norrie rugger wrote: »

ALSO
buy/download/whatever a copy of "A Stitch in Time" based on Garak and written by Andrew Robinson!!!!

Charity shops are great places to find Star Trek paperbacks. I got copy of A Stitch In Time in a charity shop for €1.50.

IvySlayer

I don't bother with non-canon stuff. They just love connecting every character possible.

GreenWolfe

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

every borg ship you won't destroy is a ship/planet/civilisation you've doomed to destruction. i'd agree you couldn't really call them evil, they're more of a force of nature but outside of an easy foolproof method to un-assimilate drones the priority every time a ship is spotted should be to destroy it with an ultimate goal of destroying the entire collective. They can't be reasoned with, they can't sign a treaty (or won't, whatever ) acknowledging borders they will do what they do and there's no choice but to stop them

i think picard was 100% in the wrong there. I see why he chose as he did but he doomed billions of lives because he was uncomfortable with the idea of smoking out a bee hive.

--edit

also **** the queen. she was the worst thing to happen to the borg. ruined the entire idea of them so the uninitiated could have a nice and easy handle on the borg in first contact.

I'm not sure about the force of nature idea. In First Contact, the Borg travelled back in time to try to get Earth assimilated so that the Federation would never become the power it is in the future.

To me, that shows that the Borg are capable of premeditated acts: planned murder and assimilation on a global scale and tampering with the timeline to wipe out at least one galactic power. I don't think they're quite the amoral abominations they're made out to be.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

EarthlyPangaea wrote: »

I'm not sure about the force of nature idea. In First Contact, the Borg travelled back in time to try to get Earth assimilated so that the Federation would never become the power it is in the future.

To me, that shows that the Borg are capable of premeditated acts: planned murder and assimilation on a global scale and tampering with the timeline to wipe out at least one galactic power. I don't think they're quite the amoral abominations they're made out to be.

that's because first contact was ****

nyarlothothep

The borg are a metaphor for Germans

Myrddin

nyarlothothep wrote: »

The borg are a metaphor for Germans

If that were true though, rather than you will be assimilated, woudn't it be "We are the Borg. You will be taxed. To resist, call Joe Duffy"

Good point though about the pre-meditated stuff, but wouldn't that be a simple equation of two failures through battle = try another approach. It seemed to me that the plan to travel back in time & assimilate past Earth, was only concocted when the Cube was destroyed. It seemed methodical/computer like to me, rather than pre-meditation...

norrie rugger

IvySlayer wrote: »

I don't bother with non-canon stuff. They just love connecting every character possible.

That's the fans fault. Excalibur series did well but not as well as it supposedly should have because it was new characters.

Myrddin

norrie rugger wrote: »

That's the fans fault. Excalibur series did well but not as well as it supposedly should have because it was new characters.

It might get away with explaining the points I made above, but they're non canon explanations so I've a hard time accepting them as anything but some bloke in an anorak continuing on his favourite cancelled show.

Endgame tech was also assimilated by the Borg lest we forget, but no doubt there's an 'explanation' that the knowledge was lost before it could be transmitted to the collective or something.

I'm the same with Star Wars too, despite some stellar opinions on stuff like the Thrawn trilogy. Its a failing, I know

norrie rugger

EnterNow wrote: »

It might get away with explaining the points I made above, but they're non canon explanations so I've a hard time accepting them as anything but some bloke in an anorak continuing on his favourite cancelled show.

Endgame tech was also assimilated by the Borg lest we forget, but no doubt there's an 'explanation' that the knowledge was lost before it could be transmitted to the collective or something.

I'm the same with Star Wars too, despite some stellar opinions on stuff like the Thrawn trilogy. Its a failing, I know

not all the tech was assimilated

Some of the best scripts came from anoraks, while each story line has to be approved by paramount/cbs

Myrddin

norrie rugger wrote: »

not all the tech was assimilated

According to this author, I could write a book tomorrow & say otherwise and it'd be as valid as anything else non canon.

Some of the best scripts came from anoraks, while each story line has to be approved by paramount/cbs

Its true storylines have been submitted & accepted by ST writers a fair bit, but not before some tinkering. The non canon stuff never seems to have the polish or credibility that canon stuff comes with. Its all Captain Picard meets Ambassador Worf & they have to save Admiral Janeway from a temporal loop caused by one of Commander Bashirs experiments which went wrong...linking up any crap they can its madness.

Anyway, I'll certainly try pick it up somewhere, that one by Robinson does indeed sound very good admittedly.

Indricotherium

nyarlothothep wrote: »

The borg are a metaphor for Germans

To be honest I think they serve better as a metaphor for the USA.

Both aggressively push for a homogenised society made up of assimilated members of other cultures.

They both have an unshakeable belief in the superiority of their way of life, and make no attempts to understand other cultures before assimilating them.

They both pick and choose the strengths of other cultures and take what they need.

The collective is an interesting contrast of the federation in this way. They are both working toward the same goal, just be different means.

I take the reference to Germans to mean Germany's invasions of Europe in World War Two. That is a particularly bad metaphor for the Borg as it was about propagating one race above all others whereas the Borg clearly recognise the need for diversity, and actively seek out the best parts of all cultures to add to the collective in order to improve it.

nyarlothothep

Indricotherium wrote: »

To be honest I think they serve better as a metaphor for the USA.

Both aggressively push for a homogenised society made up of assimilated members of other cultures.

They both have an unshakeable belief in the superiority of their way of life, and make no attempts to understand other cultures before assimilating them.

They both pick and choose the strengths of other cultures and take what they need.

The collective is an interesting contrast of the federation in this way. They are both working toward the same goal, just be different means.

I take the reference to Germans to mean Germany's invasions of Europe in World War Two. That is a particularly bad metaphor for the Borg as it was about propagating one race above all others whereas the Borg clearly recognise the need for diversity, and actively seek out the best parts of all cultures to add to the collective in order to improve it.

Well it was really just a throwaway comment, I guess borg=german stereotypes, efficient robots who want expand their collective/empire, unstoppable, resistance is futile. Many empires/religions/ideologies seek to assimilate/convert. This thread is too intellectual, can someone lower the tone?

seamus

You usually only have to look at the current events to determine who or what a species may be based on.

The Borg are most likely an analogue for communism (though the writers couldn't know that the USSR was on the verge of collapse). Unlike the humans, who are effectively socialist - each individual working for personal betterment, and therefore indirectly for communal betterment - communism seeks the betterment of the whole, erasing individuality and culture, and seeking a homogenous population of absolute equals where no individual is identified on their own merits.

the_syco

In the past, it was a voice, and thus I view the queen as their representative. A human face, as it were.

Having her as the "head" of the collective is a chink in their armour; something that can be attacked.

The Borg assimilated the information from whom it took in, but didn't seem to have any creative side; it could make tactics based on existing tactics, but not pull something out of the hat like a human would.

Myrddin

the_syco wrote: »

Having her as the "head" of the collective is a chink in their armour; something that can be attacked.

Well not really, they went as far as killing her in FC...for her to be present later on in Voyager. I think she's only an avatar, as previously mentioned.

The Borg assimilated the information from whom it took in, but didn't seem to have any creative side; it could make tactics based on existing tactics, but not pull something out of the hat like a human would.

I think the pure computational & analytical ability they have at their disposal gives them a serious advantage. Also, the time travelling sphere in FC was 'pulled out of the hat' after the Cube was destroyed

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

seamus wrote: »

Unlike the humans, who are effectively socialist - each individual working for personal betterment, and therefore indirectly for communal betterment -

sounds more randian than socialist tbh

Kirby

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

sounds more randian than socialist tbh

Not so much. Randian or objectivism isn't really about the betterment of individuals.....striving for excellence etc. It's more about embracing the selfish thinking that your happiness and life is more important than everyone elses.....because it's yours. And that it's perfectly okay to think that.

That's what I've taken away from the subject after reading a bit about it anyway.

Myrddin

Voyager, Season 6 - "Survival Instinct"

A small group of drones, 7 of 9 included, crash on a planet surface causing them to be disconnected form the hive mind. Soon after, they all start remembering who they were, memories of childhood etc start to surface. They were all very 'un-Borg like' anyway even at the start of the episode.

In TNG, you could really see drones were drones...they were acted in such a way that it left little doubt they were automatons. I don't recall Hugh ever remembering anything about himself, or his past life...nor any of the freed Borg under Lor's control. In VOY, the waters really get muddied, the use of "I" slips in here & there and its far more difficult to conclude that the Borg are drones. They're not even acted in the same way they are in TNG.