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LPG V Petrol FACTS
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08-12-2012 3:33pm#1
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Deleted User wrote: »The Prius MK II has 295 lb-foot torque + 85 lf-ft engine total 380 lb-foot
The alfa has 240 lb-foot
The Higher HP would allow the alfa to go faster, HP is just a measurement of power, it depends on what way the engine is tuned and the gearbox is what matters.
You can have 200 hp and have the engine tuned more for torque or speed, or more torque and less speed.
That's all true - it mostly depends on gear ratios used.
Anyway - prius having CVT has got the best gear ratio possible
But still - I was refering not to HP but actual acceleration measures.
If car accelerates 0-100km/h i 9.4 seconds, that it's undoubtly faster than car doing 0-100km/h i 10.4 seconds.
At least within speeds of up to 100km/h.0 -
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That's all true - it mostly depends on gear ratios used.
Anyway - prius having CVT has got the best gear ratio possible
But still - I was refering not to HP but actual acceleration measures.
If car accelerates 0-100km/h i 9.4 seconds, that it's undoubtly faster than car doing 0-100km/h i 10.4 seconds.
At least within speeds of up to 100km/h.
The official figures would say the Alfa would be faster, however the actual specs would say the Prius MK II has much more torque which is what matters for acceleration.
However Left footing the Prius brake and pressing the accelerator then lifting the brake makes for impressive acceleration, not that i condone such activities, but i do it sometimes when there are BMW and Audi's beside me at the lights. 0 -
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Deleted User wrote: »The official figures would say the Alfa would be faster, however the actual specs would say the Prius MK II has much more torque which is what matters for acceleration.What matters for acceleration is torque on driving wheels. This is compeltely different thing than torque figures on the engine about which you are talking.
As I said before - if you have two different cars, and you know one is 100BHP second one is 150BHP, you won't be able to tell which one is faster.
If you know one has 200 Nm torque and other has 300 Nm torque you still can't say which one is faster.
But once you know one does 0-100km/h in 8 seconds and other in 10, then you can tell for sure which one is faster.However Left footing the Prius brake and pressing the accelerator then lifting the brake makes for impressive acceleration, not that i condone such activities, but i do it sometimes when there are BMW and Audi's beside me at the lights.
What's the purposes of pressing the brake before accelerating?0 -
Deleted User wrote: »The official figures would say the Alfa would be faster, however the actual specs would say the Prius MK II has much more torque which is what matters for acceleration.What matters for acceleration is torque on driving wheels. This is compeltely different thing than torque figures on the engine about which you are talking.
As I said before - if you have two different cars, and you know one is 100BHP second one is 150BHP, you won't be able to tell which one is faster.
If you know one has 200 Nm torque and other has 300 Nm torque you still can't say which one is faster.
But once you know one does 0-100km/h in 8 seconds and other in 10, then you can tell for sure which one is faster.
Once you know as a fact or the specs ? you mean if it's written down so you can see it or from test ?
What's the purposes of pressing the brake before accelerating?
You left foot brake and apply the accelerator, this applies power so when you lift off you take off like a bat out of hell, I think some call it launch control, I call it certain premature death!
You only know for sure if you can measure the 0-100 yourself.0 -
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All right it makes sense to start as fast as possible.Deleted User wrote: »You left foot brake and apply the accelerator, this applies power so when you lift off you take off like a bat out of hell, I think some call it launch control, I call it certain premature death!
From my experience, manufacturers measures seem to be quite precise in this matter.You only know for sure if you can measure the 0-100 yourself.0 -
Deleted User wrote: »...........
Cost of conversion 1000
For a four cylinder car presumably?
I do believe the cost increases for larger engine
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RoverJames wrote: »For a four cylinder car presumably?
I do believe the cost increases for larger engine
Yep for a 4 pot, but i don't think i'd pay the tax on anything larger than a 2.0 L0 -
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Apples and oranges..... 1.4 2.0 2.2 D-4D is being replaced with BMW engines. VAG changed TDI to CR.... 1.9 and 2.0 if I'm not mistaken?RoverJames wrote: »
The VW 1.9 was proven, that didn't stop the development and introduction of the 2.0 CR range0 -
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Im not entirely sure as to the point of this thread, the first post makes the claim that LPG is much cheaper to run... well yes, thats the point of LPG, IMO we should have it optionally available everywhere and on everything and source the fuel from within the Eurozone, but thats a different topic.
I seen about 10% difference on LPG consumption vs Petrol, not the 20% mentioned.. some people see less than 10% difference, though I suspect they are comparing old design and choked up fuel injectors vs state of the art LPG.
On the Prius as an LPG candidate,
Against the idea
Its an interesting one; at face value it doesnt seem like a good choice as you effectively are now hauling three fuel tyres and ancillaries around while using one at a time (outside of combined power split modes), in terms of design theory a grossly inefficient proposal.
Then there is the fact the ICE in the Prius is extremely low power, 5000rpm max, 76bhp and low torque, LPG is usually best suited to cars with "excess power" and lots of torque to play with (as it tends to shift peak torque and reduce BHP slightly).
I would also be worried how the ICE will tolerate the "dryness" of LPG, isnt much of an issue for Euro engines, but it frequently comes up with US and Asian engines run on LPG. There is an additive that injects along with the LPG, but christ this is starting to get complicated now! On normal Petrol cars what I did after discussing with some mechanics was throw in some Dipetane as a lubricant into the petrol and occasionally just run through a full tank on petrol (with Dipetane) without LPG. I do big miles so that was easy to do (ie 3 fill ups a week, then one on petrol only).
For the Idea
However, on the flip side, some benefits are:
- Prius uses EV mode at low speed and start stop (whenever it can I presume), meaning LPG consumption is only used at cruise, where it excels and the increased weight penalty dramatically reduced (meaning LPG consumption penalty uniquely reduced on this car vs the normal figures expected)
- The performance characteristic of LPG to improve Torque at low RPM thanks to very high octane (120+) and preference for low RPM ceilings aligns with a Jap tuned engine with 5000rpm redline quite well. It might make the car smoother and more responsive with minimal consumption (per litre) increase.
- While I doubt you can fit a very big LPG tank into a Prius, its low low fuel consumption thanks to electric drive plus tuning, aerodynamics etc means you dont need a big LPG tank.. which also keeps weight down.
- The effective range of an LPG Prius should be truely impressive as it has the full 100% current EV-Petrol hybrid range plus whatever range the LPG provides (pending tank size). Making the pure EV solutions low speed, low range reality rather sad by comparison.
- And for those that care, LPG on a Prius pushes its emissions to new lows and green kudos through the roof compared to the petrol option.. it might be running on a 4th fuel at some points, smug-tonium.
Personally I would be looking at something like an Audi S3 for 3 grand, EUR800 for LPG install (EUR1000 is for 6pots, 4pot shouldnt be that much), while it would get an effective 50mpg on LPG, it wouldnt beat an LPG Prius in pure LPG stakes (but it would be 4wd and 250bhp and 1.8 tax).
I would be interested to hear how an LPG Prius plays out in the real world!0 -
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I never said it's the best diesel going did I, you're the one who apparently thinks the D4Ds aren't proven though.
Manufacturers can't stand still, toyota obviously have come to a favourable agreement with BMW to use their diesels going forward. It won't be a one way street, I'm sure BMW will benefit knowledgewise from the collaboration too.
I'm not flaming you at all, in fact I believe it's yourself with the bee in your bonnet. I'm still waiting for some justification on how you reckon the D4Ds aren't proven units. They may well have reached the end of their development cycle in Toyota's no doubt qualified view. I'm not at all sure they'll be exclusively replaced by BMW units though but you seem to thing they've shut up shop on them, you must be well informed surely and not talking through your hole though.
What's the inverted commas about ? ("James")
I would be quite sure you can't actually pin point any nonsense in my points here but you no doubt don't like being called on utter bullsh1t so instead of admitting you've been talking through your hole you're persisting with claiming that Toyota using BMW diesels in the future means D4Ds are not proven at all and are a sh1t unit or something along those lines.
If you've something to say just say it MugMugs, don't be hiding behind D4d engines 0 -
I drive a Toyota diesel..... I said Toyota were replacing their D-4D with BMW plants in the future..... You said that VW brought in the 2.0 CR after the 1.9 TDI original..... I said you're comparing apples and oranges, that the TDI was being retained and that VAG were keeping their engine manufacturing at home. I initially speculated that Toyota were changing to BMW because of failures In their plants. A luxurious brand like Lexus suffers seriously from HG failure being one example. You took it that I presumed toyota were building ****e..... I certainly hope that's not the case...... I've about a tonne and three quarters of their metal sitting outside which is virtually useless if that's the case.RoverJames wrote: »I never said it's the best diesel going did I, you're the one who apparently thinks the D4Ds aren't proven though.
Manufacturers can't stand still, toyota obviously have come to a favourable agreement with BMW to use their diesels going forward. It won't be a one way street, I'm sure BMW will benefit knowledgewise from the collaboration too.
I'm not flaming you at all, in fact I believe it's yourself with the bee in your bonnet. I'm still waiting for some justification on how you reckon the D4Ds aren't proven units. They may well have reached the end of their development cycle in Toyota's no doubt qualified view. I'm not at all sure they'll be exclusively replaced by BMW units though but you seem to thing they've shut up shop on them, you must be well informed surely and not talking through your hole though.
What's the inverted commas about ? ("James")
I would be quite sure you can't actually pin point any nonsense in my points here but you no doubt don't like being called on utter bullsh1t so instead of admitting you've been talking through your hole you're persisting with claiming that Toyota using BMW diesels in the future means D4Ds are not proven at all and are a sh1t unit or something along those lines.
If you've something to say just say it MugMugs, don't be hiding behind D4d engines
The pivotal issue here is your picking up of my post and replying with a useless retort...... You may as well have responded telling me that Dunnes Stores make fruitier orange juice than Tesco or Converse make greener green Cons than Pennys ..... How are you flaming me? That's how..... Am I talking ****? Not in my opinion. The great thing about having an opinion "James" is that I am entitled to it and that as it is mine, it's not actually wrong.....
As for the latter part of your post, not everybody is against you "james" It's merely a case that sometimes, just sometimes, you're talking sh1te and making irrelevant statements on mindless topics to get a rise which unfortunately you got tonight. 0 -
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I'm actually teetotal "James" ..... Tell you what though..... You're right.... As ever.... Perhaps we shouldn't derail this thread any more. No doubt you'll want the last word on that thoughRoverJames wrote: »You initially speculated? I thought you Saïd you didnt know? In this thread you've mentioned none of those points until now. Again what's the inverted commas about? How is it unfortunate I got a rise out of you as you put it? Are you well btw or just after three too many? The beauty of forums is that all your mindless sh1t and now p1ss poor attempt at backtracking is here for all to see. 0 -
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September1 thanks for that! I'm going to post in one of the E.V forums I hope you can answer a question I have, I might create a new thread, because some of the e.v threads are way to big now. I might even add this post to it.
To be honest though, if you are a diesel fan then you won't save if you are getting a real 50 mpg over a LPG Car that gets 30 mpg or less.
Where the savings come in is in the Prius that gets 60-64 mpg.
You see the idea is to drive to work spending as little on (fuel) as possible.(I'd rather spend it on a car )
Electric would cost me €690 per year
€3000-3200 for petrol in Prius currently.
€1500-1700 in 60mpg Prius on LPG
€3150 in a 50 mpg Diesel
€2400 in a 35 mpg GTI Golf
Even a 40 mpg petrol car would cost €41.60 a week on LPG or €2000 a year.
All those figures are approximate. and based on 740 ish kms work driving per week or 460 miles.
If I was in a 40 mpg petrol only car I'd have to pay 82 euro's a week or 4100 a year. All these figures are NOT including non work related driving.
So LPG is cheaper to run than most diesels on the road today, and even hybrids. But electricity beats the crap out of them all, if only I could get to work and back in one.
A GTI Golf, cheaper to run than a 50 mpg diesel rattle box ?
Even Fiat's 150 hp T-jet remapped would be pretty poky.
Both cars should be capable of 40 mpg if driven easily, and the poke is there when you need it.0 -
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Deleted User wrote: »
Yeah I just read the link September1 posted and I saw the lad who converted his Prius got a 30 L tank installed. Not a major problem if the LPG station is on the way home in Kilcullen, or just outside.
Ah right, guess you know this already but there is one there:
http://www.vv-tech-lpg.com/Kildare.html
81c a litre too.
Your commute (round commute is 85miles right?) means you would be stopped there every 3 days though, or once during the week and once on Saturday. I dont know if that would bother you, you seem quite acclimatised to the awkward EV "refueling" routine so maybe not!
The second link shows a 37litre tank, better range but more car boot taken up.0 -
Matt Simis wrote: »Ah right, guess you know this already but there is one there:
http://www.vv-tech-lpg.com/Kildare.html
81c a litre too.
Your commute (round commute is 85miles right?) means you would be stopped there every 3 days though, or once during the week and once on Saturday. I dont know if that would bother you, you seem quite acclimatised to the awkward EV "refueling" routine so maybe not!
The second link shows a 37litre tank, better range but more car boot taken up.
This link shows 50 litre tank , I know about the LPG station in Kilcullen, thats the one I was talking about. :-)
http://priuschat.com/threads/lpg.77555/
QUOTE
Today my brandnew Prius 2010 was converted to LPG (Vialle, lpi) with additional Flashlube injection system to prolonge valve seat recession. The gastank, net 50 liter,lays in the spare wheel compartiment, so almost the entire volume for the luggage could be preserved.
Read more: http://priuschat.com/threads/lpg.77555/#ixzz2EYcP5Cbm
END QUOTE.
Well if I consume 38 average litres in the Prius that would eman a stop only once during the week.
Electric would be no problem if work installed a charger, I'll keep nagging and they will hopefully give in.
There is supposed to be a new garage being built on the M7 before the M7 M9 split at Kilcullen, (E.U directive) So hopefully a fast charger could be installed there, even with the current Leaf it would only require 5 mins top up to get me home.0 -
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