Should the Union flag have been restricted from Belfast City Hall (Poll Attached)?

Smashius_Clay

Although I voted 'Yes' in this poll, as it was the democratic decision taken by the council, I am sympathetic to unionists' objections.

Those rioting and attacking policemen are idiots who are defying democracy and breaking the law, who I have no time for. But there are still people who are quietly saddened to see their flag taken away.

Imagine if a minority of the Republic's citizens objected to the flying of the Tricolour above the GPO, and succeeded in having it taken down bar a dozen or so days a year? Would people south of the border not object?

Cue people telling me that's a stupid analogy etc...

NIMAN

NI is all about compromise, if they hope to move forward.

Plenty are willing to compromise, but there is a large number of hardliners who aren't, and still see it as a unionist state for a unionist people, despite a very large number of nationalists living in the province.

A Dub in Glasgo

That is a stupid analogy

Madam

Can't see a problem with the Union flag being flown 18 days a year - the same applies in Scotland where the Saltire is flown the rest of the year on all public buildings(with no rioting from its citizens when it was decided either;))!

donegal_man

I have no strong opinion on the flying of the flag but given the number of people in the city whos default reaction to any decision the disagree with is violence I do think it could have been better timed than just before Christmas when the city is trying to attract visitors to the Christmas market right in the grounds of the city hall

Smashius_Clay

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

That is a stupid analogy

Obviously you have never heard of the Reform Group. Perhaps they aren't well-known in Scotland.

Here is what their Chairman, Robin Bury, wrote in 1999:

"Many Catholic friends tell me that Protestants have been treated eminently fairly here [the Irish state] since 1922. When I look at them quizzically or in amazement, they are upset, because they really believe it. The story of the shameful treatment of the minority ethnic Anglo-Irish community since 1922 has been glossed over. A narrow, nationalist Catholic state was calculatedly established after 1922. It was based on the silly myth of a pure, Celtic, Gaelic-speaking race living in an Arcadia in the West. Deeply Anglophobic, the new state vigorously pursed a policy of de-Anglicisation. The Anglo-Irish were wrenched from their culture overnight, and made to feel unwelcome in a theocratic state. They were denied divorce and contraception and had to put up with extreme forms of censorship. Their religion was rubbished by the Roman Catholic Church. The Land Commission and Ne Temere... set about ethnic cleansing... In this environment Protestants emigrated to pluralist countries where they felt at home... The tide is turning at last... Just as nationalists seek an apology for the famine and Bloody Sunday, the ethnic minority here has impeccable grounds to seek an apology from the Roman Catholic Church and from An Taoiseach (my emphasis)."

LordSutch

I wonder whose cunning plan it was to have the Union Flag taken down in the run up to Christmas :cool:

There was obviously going to be fireworks, so why wasn't the motion put through after the busy retail season, like after Christmas?
Belfast has suffered as a result of the rioting, footfall is down, the market closed a lot of the time, a tense atmosphere, police out in force.

Should have passed a motion to retain the Union flag for the whole year, but to also stick up another three flag poles,
one pole for the Tricolour, one for the Ulster Banner, and one for the European Union flag > Then everybody's happy )

IRE60

Madam wrote: »

(with no rioting from its citizens when it was decided either;))!

Without being pedantic:

"with no rioting from its subjects when it was decided either"

Sunnyisland

LordSutch wrote: »

I wonder whose cunning plan it was to have the Union Flag taken down in the run up to Christmas :cool:

There was obviously going to be fireworks, so why wasn't the motion put through after the busy retail season, like after Christmas?
Belfast has suffered as a result of the rioting, footfall is down, the market closed a lot of the time, a tense atmosphere, police out in force.

Should have passed a motion to retain the Union flag for the whole year, but to also stick up another three flag poles,
one pole for the Tricolour, one for the Ulster Banner, and one for the European Union flag > Then everybody's happy )

That might have worked ?

Chuck Stone

"The Anglo-Irish were wrenched from their culture overnight, and made to feel unwelcome in a theocratic state."

Poor little lambs.

Jews would laugh their heads off at this persecution complex.

mathepac

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

That is a stupid analogy

It is stupid to call that stupid analogy stupid; it's just stupid. Cue Palestinians laughing their heads off at all of this.

I wonder who created Palestine and who promised Palestine to the Jews and the Arabs in a self-serving piece of double-dealing diplomacy (aka lying) designed to keep the money to finance WWI flowing from Rothschild & Co and oil to grease its progress flowing from other places? It would hardly be a representative of HM Gov. flying the union flag would it?

Well holy God, doesn't that bate Bannagher?

A Dub in Glasgo

Smashius_Clay wrote: »

Obviously you have never heard of the Reform Group. Perhaps they aren't well-known in Scotland.

Here is what their Chairman, Robin Bury, wrote in 1999:

I have heard of the Reform Group, bunch of whingers

Smashius_Clay

Madam wrote: »

(with no rioting from its citizens when it was decided either;))!

IRE60 wrote: »

Without being pedantic:

"with no rioting from its subjects when it was decided either"

So you believe inhabitants of the Northern Ireland and the rest of the United Kingdom are 'subjects', not citizens?

Funny, that's not what it says on their passports:

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

I have heard of the Reform Group, bunch of whingers

So I take it you don't agree with Mr Bury's claim that he and other Anglo-Irish Protestants have "impeccable grounds to seek an apology" from the Irish government?

If so, how do we decide who is entitled to an apology and who is not?

Serious question here.

Rebelheart

Smashius_Clay wrote: »

Obviously you have never heard of the Reform Group. Perhaps they aren't well-known in Scotland.

Here is what their Chairman, Robin Bury, wrote in 1999:

The TCD-educated British citizen Robin Bury was discredited years ago, and the Reform Movement's aims are laughable, essentially a plea to give their "Anglo-Irish" community new-colonial "special treatment" in modern Ireland. Only a clown would take them seriously. With patrons like Ruth Dudley Edwards and other bitterly anti-Irish sorts who are unable to come to terms with democracy and Irish Ireland, with the natives having power, this is no surprise.

TOMASJ

Why not add a third question on this poll "should the Irish & British flag" be flying on Belfast city hall,
So that
both communities are given equal status, as the latest census show both nationalists and unionists are on a par

Iwasfrozen

TOMASJ wrote: »

Why not add a third question on this poll "should the Irish & British flag" be flying on Belfast city hall,
So that
both communities are given equal status, as the latest census show both nationalists and unionists are on a par

Wouldn't it be illegal to fly another flag at the same level as the union flag over a political building?

Debator

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Jews would laugh their heads off at this persecution complex.

Could you please elaborate more on what you mean by the above.

TOMASJ

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Wouldn't it be illegal to fly another flag at the same level as the union flag over a political building?

don't know about about that,
But if the majority in the city hall democratically voted for both flags to fly side by side would that not be a fair compromise

Iwasfrozen

TOMASJ wrote: »

don't know about about that,
But if the majority in the city hall democratically voted for both flags to fly side by side would that not be a fair compromise

But it is illegal? I don't know it is in Ireland but I can't find anything for the UK side. If it is illegal then the city hall doesn't have the right to make that vote.

NinjaK

Hopefully it will be the tricolour soon.

SeanW

MakeEmLaugh wrote: »

No, he forgot the "If you are not interested in the question, don't spam the thread" option.

I just think that what flag flies on a building and when is a questionable thing to get all heated up over.

If you want to fly the flag, fly it. If you want to fly another flag (like the tricolour) as a compromise, do that. I just don't see why this has come to result in riots and violence.

TOMASJ

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

But it is illegal? I don't know it is in Ireland but I can't find anything for the UK side. If it is illegal then the city hall doesn't have the right to make that vote.

All laws can and do change when it is the will of the people to do so as is happening in Belfast,

Iwasfrozen

TOMASJ wrote: »

All laws can and do change when it is the will of the people to do so as is happening in Belfast,

A city council doesn't have the power to change the nations laws. If it was against the law in the UK to fly the two flags together at the same height then it would take an act of Parliament to change that.

TOMASJ

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

A city council doesn't have the power to change the nations laws. If it was against the law in the UK to fly the two flags together at the same height then it would take an act of Parliament to change that.

then that's what is required "an act of parl" so both can fly side by side,
Meantime the 15 or whatever days voted on should be respected as that is what the majority in Belfast want

Iwasfrozen

TOMASJ wrote: »

then that's what is required "an act of parl" so both can fly side by side,
Meantime the 15 or whatever days voted on should be respected as that is what the majority in Belfast want

An act of Parliment on this issue would be impossible to obtain. Not least since Sinn Féin don't participate in that house. And there's no evidence that the majority of the people in Belfast want this. Only that the majority of elected representatives in the city council want it.

GRMA

Somewhat of a loaded poll... why not just yes, no, don't care? the mods had to specially post it too didn't they?

A Dub in Glasgo

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

And there's no evidence that the majority of the people in Belfast want this. Only that the majority of elected representatives in the city council want it.

That can be said for any decision any council or decision any parliament make

goose2005

IRE60 wrote: »

Without being pedantic:

"with no rioting from its subjects when it was decided either"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Nationality_Act_1981

Rebelheart wrote: »

The TCD-educated British citizen Robin Bury was discredited years ago, and the Reform Movement's aims are laughable, essentially a plea to give their "Anglo-Irish" community new-colonial "special treatment" in modern Ireland. Only a clown would take them seriously. With patrons like Ruth Dudley Edwards and other bitterly anti-Irish sorts who are unable to come to terms with democracy and Irish Ireland, with the natives having power, this is no surprise.

I love the way you wave around "TCD-educated" like it carries the same implications as training in a camp in the mountains of Pakistan.

Iwasfrozen

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

That can be said for any decision any council or decision any parliament make

You're right it can. So don't make the assertion in the first place. The majority of people in Ireland were not in favour of our most recent budget.

goose2005 wrote: »

I love the way you wave around "TCD-educated" like it carries the same implications as training in a camp in the mountains of Pakistan.

It's almost like a curse.

A Dub in Glasgo

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

You're right it can. So don't make the assertion in the first place. The majority of people in Ireland were not in favour of our most recent budget.

Do you want a vote on everything?

BlatentCheek

LordSutch wrote: »

I wonder whose cunning plan it was to have the Union Flag taken down in the run up to Christmas :cool:

I doubt the shinners expected as strong a reaction but they certainly weren't averse to a backlash, after all it makes the Unionists look like undemocratic, compromise averse, thugs who wreck the place when they don't get their way.

GRMA

It was an alliance motion.... sf and sdlp supported it.

Unionists need to cop on and realise that the north has changed, and will continue to do so over the next while. Orange state is gone

BlatentCheek

GRMA wrote: »

It was an alliance motion.... sf and sdlp supported it.

Sorry my mistake,

I'd say Alliance are regretting that motion now

Also that stuff earlier in the thread equating the treatment of protestants in the South post-independence with Catholics in the North is a bit of a joke.

Iwasfrozen

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Do you want a vote on everything?

No, you missed my point. Which was that you can't say people are in support of something because their elected representatives are. I don't want a vote on the budget for example I just don't want people saying the population were in support of it. Same with this flag issue.

Happyman42

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

No, you missed my point. Which was that you can't say people are in support of something because their elected representatives are. I don't want a vote on the budget for example I just don't want people saying the population were in support of it. Same with this flag issue.

The population have their say come the next election. That's how it works. Let's see if the people who voted for this get removed, then you have your answer. In the meantime, the democratic contract says 'Put up with it'.

My opinion is this will die away and become a non-issue because in a 'normal' society like the rest of Britian it is a non issue.

getz

Happyman42 wrote: »

The population have their say come the next election. That's how it works. Let's see if the people who voted for this get removed, then you have your answer. In the meantime, the democratic contract says 'Put up with it'.

My opinion is this will die away and become a non-issue because in a 'normal' society like the rest of Britian it is a non issue.

the problem of flag waving in town halls has been building up all year,the restriction on the number of days the union flag can be flown ,is seen by loyalists reactionarys as the start of something bigger, sinn fien even now is pushing for the tricolour to be flown on stormont,and northern irish towns like limavady [co londonderry] have been flying a giant tricolour all the year round.

Happyman42

getz wrote: »

the problem of flag waving in town halls has been building up all year,the restriction on the number of days the union flag can be flown ,is seen by loyalists reactionarys as the start of something bigger, sinn fien even now is pushing for the tricolour to be flown on stormont,and northern irish towns like limavady [co londonderry] have been flying a giant tricolour all the year round.

The Union flag will be flying in line with all other similar public buildings in the UK. There are no restrictions or bannings being imposed. Society is being normalised. The GFA recognises the rights of people to see themselves as Irish or British, that is what is unique about the situation. An accomodation of that fact has to be found and if people embrace democratic principles, it can be found.

getz

Happyman42 wrote: »

The Union flag will be flying in line with all other similar public buildings in the UK. There are no restrictions or bannings being imposed. Society is being normalised. The GFA recognises the rights of people to see themselves as Irish or British, that is what is unique about the situation. An accomodation of that fact has to be found and if people embrace democratic principles, it can be found.

glad you like the GFA it also recognizes northern ireland is british,untill voted otherwise,its only the larger cities in the UK who fly the union flag on the designated days,smaller towns and villages often fly them all the year round,that maybe because they cannot be bothered to take them down

Happyman42

getz wrote: »

glad you like the GFA it also recognizes northern ireland is british,untill voted otherwise,its only the larger cities in the UK who fly the union flag on the designated days,smaller towns and villages often fly them all the year round,that maybe because they cannot be bothered to take them down

I do 'like' it, some pretend to like it.

OCorcrain

getz wrote: »

glad you like the GFA it also recognizes northern ireland is british

British in the context of Northern Ireland's constitutional status within the United Kingdom and the fact that there are citizens who identify themselves as such.

Do not forget the right of people in Northern Ireland to also identify as Irish rathern than British (or both).

There is no such polarizing ultimatum/declaration in the GFA that "Northern Ireland is British" and British only.

Cavehill Red

Flawed poll. There is no non-partitionist option.
I'd like to vote Yes, the butcher's apron should be restricted from Belfast City Hall because it has no place being flown on Irish sovereign soil.

OCorcrain

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Flawed poll. There is no non-partitionist option.
I'd like to vote Yes, the butcher's apron should be restricted from Belfast City Hall because it has no place being flown on Irish sovereign soil.

Irish yes with people who identify themselves as British, and it is under British sovereignity. (for the moment)

getz

OCorcrain wrote: »

British in the context of Northern Ireland's constitutional status within the United Kingdom and the fact that there are citizens who identify themselves as such.

Do not forget the right of people in Northern Ireland to also identify as Irish rathern than British (or both).

There is no such polarizing ultimatum/declaration in the GFA that "Northern Ireland is British" and British only.

cheeky you have just added on ;british only; i never said that

Cavehill Red

OCorcrain wrote: »

Irish yes with people who identify themselves as British, and it is under British sovereignity. (for the moment)

Correction: It is under British occupation.

OCorcrain

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Correction: It is under British occupation.

I suppose one could use the terms interchangeably.

OCorcrain

getz wrote: »

cheeky you have just added on ;british only; i never said that

I never said you did.

GRMA

Letters containing bullets have been sent to five Northern Ireland politicians.

Sinn Fein said letters addressed to Gerry Kelly and Alex Maskey had been sent to Stormont.

An Alliance party press officer said he had been told that bullets had also been sent to party leader David Ford, Naomi Long and Gerardine Mulvenna.

It is understood five separate envelopes containing bullets were sent to the politicians.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-20785567

Lovely people.