Increasing the price of alcohol wont bring down anti social behavour or alcohol abuse

para45

Increasing the price of alcohol wont bring down anti social behavour or alcohol abuse
I am always amazed at these stupid anti alcohol lobby groups that say we have to increase the price of alcohol to stop alcohol abuse and binge drinking . Or some un educated parent that has a child with alcohol abuse problems . Most likely the child is in that problem due to bad parenting also.

That is one of the main reasons that Wine went up by €1 per bottle yes for tax reasons as the goverment makes us believe but the lobby groups have been shouting for this increase for some months now and some politician wanting to brown nose with people that are sick of antisocial behavior relating to drink .

You dont see drunk kids in the streets with bottles of wine you see them with alcopops or vodka , beer etc .

Because some members of society cant behave or respect alcohol why must we the law abiding decent citizen from what ever social background pay for their bad behavior.

Then also these stupid lobbyist come up with ridiculous statements like if we increase booze prices it will help because booze is so cheap . I dont know where they doing the research but they obviously have never been abroad or have access to the internet to see how cheap alcohol is in the rest of Europe. We have the most expensive alcohol prices in the EMU.

Why aren't Italian Kids and french kids falling around the streets where alcohol in those countries are half the price its here. A bottle of Jameson which is made here is €16 in a supermarket in Italy . ANd a bottle of Baileys is €9 in the Italian alps . Its got to travel far to get there and for everybody to take their cut to be able to sel it for those prices. ANd as mentioned youths aren't stumbling around the streets at rock bottom booze prices.

SO I ask you what is our excuses to be getting of our heads at double the booze prices. And then to top it off these Anti Alcohol lobbyist want to increase the prices .

In Europe and most other countries kids are taught the basics of alcohol that its not just for getting of your heads but that its there to be enjoyed in moderation and to have respect for it . Also its a companion to good food not fast food . Maybe if we get the food and appreciation of good food and alcohol as a companion to it, concept right there wont be so many obese people around also. And then Irish society will also be more healthier . There is nothing wrong with introducing a glass of wine to a meal for a child like most civilized countries do . This has to be controlled obviously and be explained. YESSSSSSS all the anti alcohol people are having heart attacks now . But have a look at Italy , Spain , France et al and see they have these ways to introduce alcohol to kids in controlled environments . And then you know your kid isnt getting of its head in some field or anti social spot doing you know what else also


Education education education. And please don't ruin it for us Innocent law abiding citizens MR/Mrs politicians lobbyist.

Neewbie_noob

para45 wrote: »

Increasing the price of alcohol won't bring down anti- social behavour or alcohol abuse

Of course it won't, but it will line the pockets and coffers of the politicians.

Procrastastudy

Thanks for that - the discussion point is...?

para45

Procrastastudy wrote: »

Thanks for that - the discussion point is...?

Increasing the price of Booze wont do the the trick !

Mellor

But its not attempting to bring down consumption. It's a tax, or the same purposes as every other tax.

para45

Mellor wrote: »

But its not attempting to bring down consumption. It's a tax, or the same purposes as every other tax.

Increasing taxes is a form of brining down consumption . Thats a basic economic factor . Thats why smoking is always taxed and targeted also they bellieve in tax increases would encourage people to quit or consume less.

Peregrinus

It's mostly true that increasing the price of something will tend to reduce consumption, though there are a few marginal cases where this is not true.

However reducing consumption of alcohol doesn't necessarily translation into a reduction in alcohol abuse or alcohol-related problems, or at least to a proportionate reduction. To the extent that someone is dependent on or addicted to alcohol, if the price goes up they are more likely to reduce their consumption of something else in order to maintain their consumption of alcohol. It'll be the take-it-or-leave-it drinkers whose consumption will be most affected by price rises.

But none of this is relevant if the object of the tax increase is not to reduce the social costs of alcohol abuse. If, as I suspect, the object of the tax increase is to raise revenue, then the less consumption is affected the happier the government will be.

Eliot Rosewater

Peregrinus wrote: »

But none of this is relevant if the object of the tax increase is not to reduce the social costs of alcohol abuse. If, as I suspect, the object of the tax increase is to raise revenue, then the less consumption is affected the happier the government will be.

That's true, but on the other hand the perceived immorality of alcohol and tobacco consumption is an implicit justification for those tax increases. I think there's a reason they're consistently increased, in contrast with, say, the sporadic changes in income tax. So perhaps the moral element is relevant, even if the tax isn't officially increased for moral reasons.

para45

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

That's true, but on the other hand the perceived immorality of alcohol and tobacco consumption is an implicit justification for those tax increases. I think there's a reason they're consistently increased, in contrast with, say, the sporadic changes in income tax. So perhaps the moral element is relevant, even if the tax isn't officially increased for moral reasons.

Yes I do agree with this and previous.

donaghs

Its unfortunate that innocent people get punished for the behaviour of others, but I think prices can be used to reduce consumption, and therefore reduce anti-social behaviour.

What would work best is a "minumum price", not an across the board increase as with the budget. Also, taxing wine will clearly have no impact as wine drinking is not as much of an issue on the streets as beer, wine and spirits (unless you class Buckfast as wine).

Earthhorse

I disagree with the basic premise here; alcohol and cigarettes are continually taxed because they are inelastic goods - consumption may decrease a little because of a tax increase but overall the take will be positive. That's the only reason. It has nothing to do with morality or social outcomes.

RandolphEsq

para45 wrote: »

Increasing the price of alcohol wont bring down anti social behavour or alcohol abuse
I am always amazed at these stupid anti alcohol lobby groups that say we have to increase the price of alcohol to stop alcohol abuse and binge drinking . Or some un educated parent that has a child with alcohol abuse problems . Most likely the child is in that problem due to bad parenting also.

That is one of the main reasons that Wine went up by €1 per bottle yes for tax reasons as the goverment makes us believe but the lobby groups have been shouting for this increase for some months now and some politician wanting to brown nose with people that are sick of antisocial behavior relating to drink .

You dont see drunk kids in the streets with bottles of wine you see them with alcopops or vodka , beer etc .

Because some members of society cant behave or respect alcohol why must we the law abiding decent citizen from what ever social background pay for their bad behavior.

Then also these stupid lobbyist come up with ridiculous statements like if we increase booze prices it will help because booze is so cheap . I dont know where they doing the research but they obviously have never been abroad or have access to the internet to see how cheap alcohol is in the rest of Europe. We have the most expensive alcohol prices in the EMU.

Why aren't Italian Kids and french kids falling around the streets where alcohol in those countries are half the price its here. A bottle of Jameson which is made here is €16 in a supermarket in Italy . ANd a bottle of Baileys is €9 in the Italian alps . Its got to travel far to get there and for everybody to take their cut to be able to sel it for those prices. ANd as mentioned youths aren't stumbling around the streets at rock bottom booze prices.

SO I ask you what is our excuses to be getting of our heads at double the booze prices. And then to top it off these Anti Alcohol lobbyist want to increase the prices .

In Europe and most other countries kids are taught the basics of alcohol that its not just for getting of your heads but that its there to be enjoyed in moderation and to have respect for it . Also its a companion to good food not fast food . Maybe if we get the food and appreciation of good food and alcohol as a companion to it, concept right there wont be so many obese people around also. And then Irish society will also be more healthier . There is nothing wrong with introducing a glass of wine to a meal for a child like most civilized countries do . This has to be controlled obviously and be explained. YESSSSSSS all the anti alcohol people are having heart attacks now . But have a look at Italy , Spain , France et al and see they have these ways to introduce alcohol to kids in controlled environments . And then you know your kid isnt getting of its head in some field or anti social spot doing you know what else also


Education education education. And please don't ruin it for us Innocent law abiding citizens MR/Mrs politicians lobbyist.

That's quite clearly a myth. Teens in Spain (as I have experience with Spain) binge drink. Due to the lack of age restrictions it is so easy for them to go in and buy a cheap bottle of vodka. Spanish teens hang out in the street drinking and getting drunk. You might't notice it because you don't see them drinking but Spanish teens most definitely binge drink.

Supermarkets should not be allowed to stock alcohol except for wine. The rationale for this is that throwing a slab of cans into your trolley next to eggs and bread is seen as part of your grocery shopping, when alcohol is not a typical grocery. And designated beer and spirits vendors should not be allowed to sell cans for less than €2.50.

Procrastastudy

RandolphEsq wrote: »

Supermarkets should not be allowed to stock alcohol except for wine. The rationale for this is that throwing a slab of cans into your trolley next to eggs and bread is seen as part of your grocery shopping, when alcohol is not a typical grocery. And designated beer and spirits vendors should not be allowed to sell cans for less than €2.50.

How very Canadian of you. I'd agree actually its not the cost but the availability. I take the cigs out while I was at it as well to be honest. I don't understand why all this hassle is being gone to in Aus re the packaging. Bang them into special shops.

RandolphEsq

Banning alcohol advertisements of sporting events and during the day is absolutely essential also. Realistically it is a combination of things that would reduce alcohol dependency by Irish people, not one single measure. And there is no quick fix, a consistent and persistent campaign needs to be launched.

Zombrex

para45 wrote: »

Increasing the price of alcohol wont bring down anti social behavour or alcohol abuse
I am always amazed at these stupid anti alcohol lobby groups that say we have to increase the price of alcohol to stop alcohol abuse and binge drinking . Or some un educated parent that has a child with alcohol abuse problems . Most likely the child is in that problem due to bad parenting also.

That is one of the main reasons that Wine went up by €1 per bottle yes for tax reasons as the goverment makes us believe but the lobby groups have been shouting for this increase for some months now and some politician wanting to brown nose with people that are sick of antisocial behavior relating to drink .

You dont see drunk kids in the streets with bottles of wine you see them with alcopops or vodka , beer etc .

Because some members of society cant behave or respect alcohol why must we the law abiding decent citizen from what ever social background pay for their bad behavior.

Then also these stupid lobbyist come up with ridiculous statements like if we increase booze prices it will help because booze is so cheap . I dont know where they doing the research but they obviously have never been abroad or have access to the internet to see how cheap alcohol is in the rest of Europe. We have the most expensive alcohol prices in the EMU.

Why aren't Italian Kids and french kids falling around the streets where alcohol in those countries are half the price its here. A bottle of Jameson which is made here is €16 in a supermarket in Italy . ANd a bottle of Baileys is €9 in the Italian alps . Its got to travel far to get there and for everybody to take their cut to be able to sel it for those prices. ANd as mentioned youths aren't stumbling around the streets at rock bottom booze prices.

SO I ask you what is our excuses to be getting of our heads at double the booze prices. And then to top it off these Anti Alcohol lobbyist want to increase the prices .

In Europe and most other countries kids are taught the basics of alcohol that its not just for getting of your heads but that its there to be enjoyed in moderation and to have respect for it . Also its a companion to good food not fast food . Maybe if we get the food and appreciation of good food and alcohol as a companion to it, concept right there wont be so many obese people around also. And then Irish society will also be more healthier . There is nothing wrong with introducing a glass of wine to a meal for a child like most civilized countries do . This has to be controlled obviously and be explained. YESSSSSSS all the anti alcohol people are having heart attacks now . But have a look at Italy , Spain , France et al and see they have these ways to introduce alcohol to kids in controlled environments . And then you know your kid isnt getting of its head in some field or anti social spot doing you know what else also


Education education education. And please don't ruin it for us Innocent law abiding citizens MR/Mrs politicians lobbyist.

Guess what the biggest alcohol related health disaster on the horizon just waiting to cripple the health service is.

Middle class middle aged people drinking too much wine, the very people complaining that this increase will effect how much they can afford to drink

Given that it seems the tax increase was perfectly targeted. Though education is very important, which is why alcohol myths need to be busted.

The Corinthian

para45 wrote: »

Why aren't Italian Kids and french kids falling around the streets where alcohol in those countries are half the price its here. A bottle of Jameson which is made here is €16 in a supermarket in Italy . ANd a bottle of Baileys is €9 in the Italian alps . Its got to travel far to get there and for everybody to take their cut to be able to sel it for those prices. ANd as mentioned youths aren't stumbling around the streets at rock bottom booze prices.

The reasons are cultural. In the UK and Ireland alcohol has long been used as a social aid, which is introduced in one's teens and after a few years we become completely dependant on it - I've lost count of how many people I know who literally need a few drinks to loosen up, for any social situation.

Where it comes to courtship, the difference is most pronounced. For example, in Ireland men and women tend to get together the first time in an alcoholic context. It may be a few drinks to take the edge off or, as is all too often the case, drunken couples who end up hopping on each other in nightclubs, parties or bars. Irish men are extremely passive when perusing women, for example, compared to Italians, who are constantly 'hitting on' potential partners - and importantly Italian men don't fall into the trap as teenagers of needing Dutch courage to do so.

Given this, the binge culture is being exported abroad also. I was recently in Italy and noticed a few clearly out on the piss, which would have been unheard of thirty years ago and the increasing popularity of such behaviour has also been seen to affect France.

As to the effectiveness of taxation, it's not - consumption has been found to be pretty price inelastic (look at countries such as Sweden, who also have binge drinking cultures and even higher alcohol prices). But the taxation isn't supposed to stop people drinking, it's supposed to raise tax revenue - it's a classic example of a 'moral tax' that raises money under some socially positive pretext.

The only way of decreasing alcohol overconsumption is to change Irish culture so that it becomes less dependant on it socially. However given how passive-aggressive our culture is, I can't really see that happening any time soon.