LL asking to renew lease.

Captain Chaos

I'm coming to the end of my 12 month lease and my LL is asking me am I going to renew it or not. I was under the impression that I do not have to commit to another 12 months once the initial lease is up under the Part 4 agreement. Under Part 4 it basically becomes a 30 day rolling contract?

What are my options, and what if I say I'm not going to renew and want to take it month by month. I know he will not haggle I have tried many times and he won't budge even on the asking rent when I moved in so I'm not committing to another 12 months.

Victor

Is this the landlord or their agent? The agent is likely only chasing a fee.

The only advantage that a new lease would confer on you would be security of tenure if the landlord wanted to renovate, sell, or needed it for himself.

Tell the landlord that you are happy to continue as you are and want to stay on a Part 4 lease basis. If he wants a 12 month lease, consider asking for a rent reduction and/or a 30 day notice clause, given the way the economy is - who knows if you can afford it in a year's time.

I think you owe him 35-42 days notice at the moment, not 30 days.

From a tenant's point of view.

public.prtb.ie/DownloadDocs/Terminating_Tenancy.doc
Duration of Tenancy Notice Period
Less than 6 months 28 days
6 months or more but less than 1 year 35 days
1 year or more but less than 2 years 42 days
2 years or more 56 days

Landlord's need to give longer notice.

Captain Chaos

Thanks, for that.

I don't want to commit to another year as my work hours have been cut back and it looks like I will be on less than 20hrs per week the way things are going. Also the place is freezing as it has 12 vents and won't hold any heat once the heating is off. You can hear the wind howling through them even now and this is in a new building. The vents are built into the window frames and even when the vents are closed the wind can blow through them no problem. Anyone that visits me comments on how cold my place is even with the heating on full. I have brought up the issue with the LL and he has said he found the heating just fine when he lived there.

My lease is up mid January but I know if I tell him I'm not renewing that I will have to put up with him showing people around during Xmas and I don't want that. The way it is all I want is a 1 month extension till mid February and then let someone else have this ice box.

gibo_ie

From Citizensinformation.ie

Claiming a Part 4 tenancy at the end of a lease
If you have a fixed-term contract or lease (for example of 1 year) and you wish to remain in the property under the rights acquired under Part 4, you must notify your landlord of your intention to stay in the property between 3 months and 1 month before the expiry of your fixed–term tenancy or lease agreement. You can use this sample letter of notification to remain in the property under Part 4.

If you do not notify your landlord you cannot be refused coverage under Part 4 but you may have to compensate the landlord for any financial loss she/he has incurred because you did not notify him/her of your intention to remain in the tenancy.

I believe the landlord is entitled to set a new rent rate though, which if you don't agree with you will have to break the agreement giving notice as per below:

Length of tenancy Notice by tenant
Less than 6 months 4 weeks (28 days)
6 months to 1 year 5 weeks (35 days)
1 – 2 years 6 weeks (42 days)
2 or more years 8 weeks (56 days)

Market rent
Landlords cannot charge rent that is above the market rate. Landlords can seek a rent review after the first 12 months of a tenancy. Tenants can seek a review annually. Reviews cannot take place more frequently than annually unless there has been a substantial change in the nature of the accommodation during that period.

But what is market rate? and who decides? I haven't seen any legal challenges to this, and as there are more and more charges (property/household/water etc...) being forced upon property owners, the landlord will probably increase rents to take account of this (as i will be on next reviews) as this would be common sense as the levies cannot be handed directly to the tenant, some increases will be necessary to make sure costs are covered (see Airline style pricing and how they increase prices now that adding on costs at the end is becoming phased out).

So cliff notes version, if you wish to go, ensure you give enough notice based on the above (in writing remember) and if you wish to stay, you must also give notice and agree rent in advance!
Good Luck,

djimi

Captain Chaos wrote: »

My lease is up mid January but I know if I tell him I'm not renewing that I will have to put up with him showing people around during Xmas and I don't want that. The way it is all I want is a 1 month extension till mid February and then let someone else have this ice box.

You dont have to commit pen to paper until the lease is up, so be as vague as you like about it, even tell them that you will sign up in January, and then when the lease expires tell them that circumstances changed and you will be giving them notice as per your part 4 rights that you aquire automatically after 6 months. The landlord wont be out of pocket; youll still be paying rent until you leave and they will have your 35 day notice period to find a new tenant.

Victor

Captain Chaos wrote: »

My lease is up mid January but I know if I tell him I'm not renewing that I will have to put up with him showing people around during Xmas and I don't want that. The way it is all I want is a 1 month extension till mid February and then let someone else have this ice box.

Check your lease. Unless there is a specific clause that you have to allow viewings, you don't have to.

Captain Chaos

Victor wrote: »

Check your lease. Unless there is a specific clause that you have to allow viewings, you don't have to.

I gave my notice to leave after my 12 month contract is up due in part to my LL unwilling to reduce my rent. I gave 35 days notice, within 4 hours he has placed an add for the apartment and is demanding that I let him hold viewings while I still live here and currently paying rent up to date. He wants to hold a viewing on Monday night to new tenants. I am refusing as he is braking contract as I am still living here and do not want randomers roaming around in my private space while I am still living here. I am considering calling the gards at this stage.

I am going to report him to the PRTB asap. But I know he can enter any time as he has a set of keys.

JustAThought

Well ; you knew what he was like & you wanted to have your cake & eat it; Get a reduction, retain the apartment, not sign a lease & leave at your convenience .

V unlikely the police will come to a landlord /apartment viewing issue. You'd be much better talking to him /her & negotiating nicely.

Otherwise you'll have a reference that says uncooperative & difficult; problems finding a new place & most likely no deposit .

Pawwed Rig

Captain Chaos wrote: »

I gave my notice to leave after my 12 month contract is up due in part to my LL unwilling to reduce my rent. I gave 35 days notice, within 4 hours he has placed an add for the apartment and is demanding that I let him hold viewings while I still live here and currently paying rent up to date. He wants to hold a viewing on Monday night to new tenants. I am refusing as he is braking contract as I am still living here and do not want randomers roaming around in my private space while I am still living here. I am considering calling the gards at this stage.

I am going to report him to the PRTB asap. But I know he can enter any time as he has a set of keys.

This escalated quickly (where is that Will Ferrel meme when I need it?).

I think it would be reasonable (and included in most leases) that you allow viewings at a time that is mutually convenient. It would be common practise to replace a tenant as quickly as possible by showing the property while the previous tenant is living there.

You could have given your notice for the date you wanted to leave in February as you said you didn't want viewings over Christmas. Instead you gave the notice for the end of your 12 month lease inviting exactly what you didn't want. TBH I don't see what the landlord is doing wrong here unless he is being aggressive about it but it sounds like you have already gotten beligerent. Is there something we are missing?

djimi

What exactly is the law regarding allowing viewings after you have given notice? I just assumed that it was to be expected, within reason? Certainly most of the viewings I have been to have been with the current tenants still in the property.

OP for your own sake I would say it might be easier to accomodate him to a point. There was absolutely no need for you to give notice now; you could have sat on it until the new year and given notice at your convenience but you were impatient. I know you are not going to want to hear this, but getting into a dispute with your landlord a month before you are due to move out is not in your best interests; right or wrong you are really the only one who stands to lose out if the landlord decides to get sticky and starts trying to withhold your deposit. You can take all the cases you want against him; wont do you a lot of good when you need your deposit in a months time to move into your next place.

beaner88

djimi wrote: »

What exactly is the law regarding allowing viewings after you have given notice? I just assumed that it was to be expected, within reason? Certainly most of the viewings I have been to have been with the current tenants still in the property.

OP for your own sake I would say it might be easier to accomodate him to a point. There was absolutely no need for you to give notice now; you could have sat on it until the new year and given notice at your convenience but you were impatient. I know you are not going to want to hear this, but getting into a dispute with your landlord a month before you are due to move out is not in your best interests; right or wrong you are really the only one who stands to lose out if the landlord decides to get sticky and starts trying to withhold your deposit. You can take all the cases you want against him; wont do you a lot of good when you need your deposit in a months time to move into your next place.

There is zero obligation. You have a legal obligation to allow periodic inspections and the landlord has an obligation to provide you peaceful occupation.

My lease has a specific mention of allowing viewings in the final month. These clauses cannot supersede any of those under the residential tenancies act so they will be ignored.

JustAThought

beaner88 wrote: »

There is zero obligation. You have a legal obligation to allow periodic inspections and the landlord has an obligation to provide you peaceful occupation.

My lease has a specific mention of allowing viewings in the final month. These clauses cannot supersede any of those under the residential tenancies act so they will be ignored.

You had options & now they are severely reduced and your future options possibly compromised . I hear there are long backlogs for any redress. Best cut your cloth and start looking yourself. You will be expecting to view apartments, before signing a lease?

beaner88

JustAThought wrote: »

You had options & now they are severely reduced and your future options possibly compromised . I hear there are long backlogs for any redress. Best cut your cloth and start looking yourself. You will be expecting to view apartments, before signing a lease?

?
I have loads of savings so I'm not too worried about a long wait. Yes, I expect to view an empty apartment without other peoples furniture or crap in it. I'd rather not deal with landlords who can't hand a 1/2 week void, they seem unprofessional and might have money problems.

djimi

beaner88 wrote: »

My lease has a specific mention of allowing viewings in the final month. These clauses cannot supersede any of those under the residential tenancies act so they will be ignored.

What clause in the tenancy act does the clause in the contract look to supercede? The only thing I can think of is that you might say it impedes on your peaceful enjoyment of the property, but if you signed the lease to say that you would allow viewings in the final month then you agreed to it so Im not sure that you could argue that tbh.

Pawwed Rig

A 1-2 week vacancy if factored into rents would increase rents by about 5% so I am glad most tenants don't take your attitude.

The law is all about being reasonable. If you are reasonable with a landlord and your landlord is reasonable with you then you will not run into any issues. If you are belligerent and unreasonable then there will be problems.

BTW the PRTB are worse than useless so should be avoided as much as possible. If you really feel aggrieved and decide to go the PRTB route then you will have to wait possibly a year or more to actually get your case heard. I do not see any issue here for the OP to be taking this line but as I said maybe there is something we are missing. and unreasonable then there will be problems.

steve9859

Captain Chaos wrote: »

I gave my notice to leave after my 12 month contract is up due in part to my LL unwilling to reduce my rent. I gave 35 days notice, within 4 hours he has placed an add for the apartment and is demanding that I let him hold viewings while I still live here and currently paying rent up to date. He wants to hold a viewing on Monday night to new tenants. I am refusing as he is braking contract as I am still living here and do not want randomers roaming around in my private space while I am still living here. I am considering calling the gards at this stage.

I am going to report him to the PRTB asap. But I know he can enter any time as he has a set of keys.

You will be expecting to view apartments before you leave your current one, and these will likely have tenants. So for you to refuse your LL the opportunity to show people round is just being overly belligerent and obstructive IMO, irrespective of obligations or otherwise under the lease

I don't think the PTRB would particularly support your stance and find against the landlord re.viewings, if he is asking to show a reasonable number of people round at a reasonable hour.

Ranjo

Captain Chaos wrote: »

My lease is up mid January but I know if I tell him I'm not renewing that I will have to put up with him showing people around during Xmas and I don't want that. The way it is all I want is a 1 month extension till mid February and then let someone else have this ice box.

Are you looking for a February exit just to avoid having people view the place over Christmas?

How reasonable is your LL? If you explained to him that you won't be renewing the lease mid January, but offer him some "additional" time to find a new tenant and that you will move out in February.

beaner88

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

A 1-2 week vacancy if factored into rents would increase rents by about 5% so I am glad most tenants don't take your attitude.

The law is all about being reasonable. If you are reasonable with a landlord and your landlord is reasonable with you then you will not run into any issues. If you are belligerent and unreasonable then there will be problems.

BTW the PRTB are worse than useless so should be avoided as much as possible. If you really feel aggrieved and decide to go the PRTB route then you will have to wait possibly a year or more to actually get your case heard. I do not see any issue here for the OP to be taking this line but as I said maybe there is something we are missing. and unreasonable then there will be problems.

Having groups of unknown strangers wandering around your house when you are paying a grand a month for it is unreasonable. So unreasonable in fact that there are specific laws there to protect tenants. You pay for the exclusive and uninterrupted and use of the property, end of story.

the_syco

Captain Chaos wrote: »

I am going to report him to the PRTB asap. But I know he can enter any time as he has a set of keys.

Tell him you don't give him consent to enter your house, and that you'll ring the Gardai to report him for trespassing if he does come in.

Captain Chaos

beaner88 wrote: »

Having groups of unknown strangers wandering around your house when you are paying a grand a month for it is unreasonable. So unreasonable in fact that there are specific laws there to protect tenants. You pay for the exclusive and uninterrupted and use of the property, end of story.

This basically is my point above. And when I viewed this place before I moved in, no one lived here and or had their stuff all over the place. It is not in my contract to allow viewings while I still live here and paying rent. If he want's viewings now he can give me back this months rent now and I will be gone in 24 hrs of it in my account. My contract does state that the LL has to respect my privacy while I am living here and paying rent.

Also LL refused Part 4 agreement and wanted 12 months lease, all or nothing basically, no give or take.

steve9859

Captain Chaos wrote: »

This basically is my point above. And when I viewed this place before I moved in, no one lived here and or had their stuff all over the place. It is not in my contract to allow viewings while I still live here and paying rent. If he want's viewings now he can give me back this months rent now and I will be gone in 24 hrs of it in my account. My contract does state that the LL has to respect my privacy while I am living here and paying rent.

Also LL refused Part 4 agreement and wanted 12 months lease, all or nothing basically, no give or take.

Well, you can kiss goodbye to any reference if that's how you're going to behave

The_Conductor

Normally if you're going Part 4- from a fixed term lease, and refusing to sign a further fixed term lease- you have a small increase in monthly rent (in recognition of the fact that the landlord has no guarantee that you'll be there for a fixed period of time)- providing the prevailing market rate is not breached. Rents have been increasing- because BTL landlords are getting squeezed by banks into handing back properties, particularly in the greater Dublin area.

Normally a little bit of give and take on both sides finds a happy compromise, satisfactory to all.

beaner88

smccarrick wrote: »

Normally if you're going Part 4- from a fixed term lease, and refusing to sign a further fixed term lease- you have a small increase in monthly rent (in recognition of the fact that the landlord has no guarantee that you'll be there for a fixed period of time)- providing the prevailing market rate is not breached. Rents have been increasing- because BTL landlords are getting squeezed by banks into handing back properties, particularly in the greater Dublin area.

Normally a little bit of give and take on both sides finds a happy compromise, satisfactory to all.

That is not normal at all and has never happened me in multiple rentals. Why is everybody bending over backwards so desperately to help their landlords? They are providing a service, a very expensive service and the customer should be absolutely demanding the best. In what other business environment would you talk about give and take? Is there a little big of give and take when you are buying dinner?

Jo King

beaner88 wrote: »

That is not normal at all and has never happened me in multiple rentals. Why is everybody bending over backwards so desperately to help their landlords? They are providing a service, a very expensive service and the customer should be absolutely demanding the best. In what other business environment would you talk about give and take? Is there a little big of give and take when you are buying dinner?

You are entitled not to let the landlord in for viewings. You don't have to sign a new fixed term lease. You can give the minimum notice and there is nothing he can do. He does not have to reduce the rent. He can in fact seek to increase it. You do not have to part on good terms. I would imagine that he will be glad to be rid of you.

beaner88

Jo King wrote: »

You are entitled not to let the landlord in for viewings. You don't have to sign a new fixed term lease. You can give the minimum notice and there is nothing he can do. He does not have to reduce the rent. He can in fact seek to increase it. You do not have to part on good terms. I would imagine that he will be glad to be rid of you.

He can't just increase the rent. It has to be in line with local rates.

Why would they be glad to get rid of me? They gets a good tenant that treats a property like the home that it is and gets money in their account on time every month.

Some of you seem to be content with your roles as serfs or maybe you like to play the landlord. It has to be treated like a professional business arrangement with the added seriousness of dealing with a persons home.

steve9859

Look, to make renting work well, there has to be give and take on both sides. Sure, there are a-hole landlords, but there are plenty of nightmare tenants too. I'm am both a landlord and a tenant, having had to move with my work. It doesn't have to be a battle.

It is not an expensive service. Dublin rents are cheap compared to other equivalent cities. Try comparing to London for example. Dublin is cheap as chips and tenants generally get a great deal.

beaner88

steve9859 wrote: »

Look, to make renting work well, there has to be give and take on both sides. Sure, there are a-hole landlords, but there are plenty of nightmare tenants too. I'm am both a landlord and a tenant, having had to move with my work. It doesn't have to be a battle.

It is not an expensive service. Dublin rents are cheap compared to other equivalent cities. Try comparing to London for example. Dublin is cheap as chips and tenants generally get a great deal.

They are not cheap. I don't give a **** what they pay in some of the biggest cities in the world. Dublin is small fry and 1150 for my 2 bed is pretty pricey. It is give and take. The give and take is the rent I pay, everything after that is provision of good service and not intruding in my life.

Pawwed Rig

beaner88 wrote: »

Having groups of unknown strangers wandering around your house when you are paying a grand a month for it is unreasonable..

Which is why the tenant can do it on his own terms.

beaner88 wrote: »

Why is everybody bending over backwards so desperately to help their landlords?

Not bending over backwards. Just being a human being being considerate of another human being.

beaner88 wrote: »

He can't just increase the rent. It has to be in line with local rates.

And local rates are what? Local rates are the price landlords charge. Again it goes back to being reasonable. If I charge €1000 for a flat that is clearly worth only €500 then I would agree that I have exceeded local rates. However if I charge €600? Then is that exceeding local rates? There is a variance in every location that can be accounted for. Again the word is reasonable. Everyone repeat after me Reasonable

djimi

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

And local rates are what? Local rates are the price landlords charge. Again it goes back to being reasonable. If I charge €1000 for a flat that is clearly worth only €500 then I would agree that I have exceeded local rates. However if I charge €600? Then is that exceeding local rates? There is a variance in every location that can be accounted for. Again the word is reasonable. Everyone repeat after me Reasonable

Market rental price is the average price for a similar property in the area. So for example if in a complex 2 bed apartments are renting for 750 a landlord cannot turn around and up the rent to 1000 unless they have a very good reason to do so (ie there is something about their property that raises its value above those around it).

The landlord is however entitled to review the rent and if there is room to raise the rent then there is nothing to stop them looking to do so. Of course, the flipside to that is that they may end up losing a good tenant and a months worth of rent for the sake of 50 a month, but that is their risk to take and assess if it is worth it.

Pawwed Rig

djimi wrote: »

Market rental price is the average price for a similar property in the area. So for example if in a complex 2 bed apartments are renting for 750 a landlord cannot turn around and up the rent to 1000 unless they have a very good reason to do so (ie there is something about their property that raises its value above those around it).

Yes but average does not mean exactly €750. There may be 3 apartments at €700, €750, €800 giving an average of €750. Does this mean the tenant paying €800 can demand a rent reduction to €750? Of course not as then the average would be €733 which means the tenant would then look for a further reduction and so on and so on.
I would assume the reason for this law is to stop landlords who want rid of a sitting tenant cranking up the price forcing the tenant to move out. If a first time tenant accepts the rent being charged by the LL then I would argue that That figure is the current market rent for the particular property.

djimi

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Yes but average does not mean exactly €750. There may be 3 apartments at €700, €750, €800 giving an average of €750. Does this mean the tenant paying €800 can demand a rent reduction to €750? Of course not as then the average would be €733 which means the tenant would then look for a further reduction and so on and so on.
I would assume the reason for this law is to stop landlords who want rid of a sitting tenant cranking up the price forcing the tenant to move out. If a first time tenant accepts the rent being charged by the LL then I would argue that That figure is the current market rent for the particular property.

Its obviously not an exact science, and if the open market rate is 750 then noone is going to quibble about 800. Its to stop landlords taking the piss and asking for a rate that is well above what the property is worth in the local market, ie asking for 1000 for a property worth 750. Its also to ensure that a landlord does not look for a stupid increase in rent for an existing tenant.

The law is in place for new tenants also; a landlord cannot legally advertise a vacant property for higher than the open market rate for the property, but in reality there is little need for such a law as no tenant in their right mind is going to pay 1000 for a property when they can get the same property in the area for 750.

Kosseegan

beaner88 wrote: »

He can't just increase the rent. It has to be in line with local rates.

Why would they be glad to get rid of me? They gets a good tenant that treats a property like the home that it is and gets money in their account on time every month.

They get a begrudger who resents paying market rent.

beaner88

djimi wrote: »

Its obviously not an exact science, and if the open market rate is 750 then noone is going to quibble about 800. Its to stop landlords taking the piss and asking for a rate that is well above what the property is worth in the local market, ie asking for 1000 for a property worth 750. Its also to ensure that a landlord does not look for a stupid increase in rent for an existing tenant.

The law is in place for new tenants also; a landlord cannot legally advertise a vacant property for higher than the open market rate for the property, but in reality there is little need for such a law as no tenant in their right mind is going to pay 1000 for a property when they can get the same property in the area for 750.

I would. That represents a 7% is far above CSO private rental increases or for Daft rental increases in my area. You can refuse to pay the increse and dispute this with the PRTB. You can then remain in the property at the originally agreed rental price whilst waiting for the PRTB to adjudicate.

djimi

beaner88 wrote: »

I would. That represents a 7% is far above CSO private rental increases or for Daft rental increases in my area. You can refuse to pay the increse and dispute this with the PRTB. You can then remain in the property at the originally agreed rental price whilst waiting for the PRTB to adjudicate.

If 750 is the average market rent then there is a good chance that there are some properties paying as high as 800 and others paying 700. Im not sure if you brought it to the PRTB they would give you much sympathy to be honest.

beaner88

djimi wrote: »

If 750 is the average market rent then there is a good chance that there are some properties paying as high as 800 and others paying 700. Im not sure if you brought it to the PRTB they would give you much sympathy to be honest.

The rate is 750, that is what I am hypothetically paying. They would have to prove that the market has moved beyond this level. You can track the monthly rises in rental prices through the CSO so any increase would have to be closely alligned to this.

djimi

beaner88 wrote: »

The rate is 750, that is what I am hypothetically paying. They would have to prove that the market has moved beyond this level. You can track the monthly rises in rental prices through the CSO so any increase would have to be closely alligned to this.

The rate is an average; it doesnt mean the every property is paying 750 and that there can be no leeway.

To be honest I dont know how the PRTB would see it if it went before them, but in terms of rental prices €50 is not a large amount (most people would expect to have that knocked off the advertised price when renting a place first) and I cant see that the PRTB would see it as an unnecessarily high increase. I could, of course, be wrong about that however.

beaner88

This makes very interesting reading. I would always argue it from a different angle. The price I rent at from day one was set at the market rate (buyer and seller meet at a happy price). There is no renting below or above market rate and that any further increases have to be in line with percentage increases of local property rentals from the date of original rental.

http://public.prtb.ie/2011%20Disputes/Tribunals%202011/TR24.DR920.2011/Tribunal%20Report.pdf