Budget 2013, Impact to farming

HillFarmer

Hi all,

Just read Minister Coveny's statement about the budget.

'It will not be popular but it will be fair'.

For me I am wondering whether they will keep the Sheep Grassland Payment going and possibly the SCWS aswell.

Also will they cut the Disadvantage area payments?
We'll know tomorrow i guess.

kevthegaff

HillFarmer wrote: »

Hi all,

Just read Minister Coveny's statement about the budget.

'It will not be popular but it will be fair'.

For me I am wondering whether they will keep the Sheep Grassland Payment going and possibly the SCWS aswell.

Also will they cut the Disadvantage area payments?
We'll know tomorrow i guess.

Will reps be affected? Diesel will prob go up:-(

HillFarmer

I presume in relation to Reps and the Aeos schemes will be unaffected, as they are already underway.
Green diesel to go up more than likely.

Pharaoh1

If you're a small farmer on marginal land you will more than likely have already lost your REPS payment. (Replaced by the pretty hopeless AEOS scheme if you were "lucky" enough to get in). Look forward to losing your SCWS payment and maybe having your DAS payment further reduced. If you are dependent on Farm Assist you can plan for another cut here following last years cut according to yesterday's Indo when the means test is "tightened".

On the other hand if you never needed/bothered with any of the above because you are sitting on your 90k SFP you can relax. Minister Coveney will make sure you don't lose anything. You are "productive" after all (even if you're not.)

HillFarmer

I agree, it looks like all pillar 2 funding is being touted for a cut, there was a cut already to the DAS they way they upped the stocking rate.

As most farmers in marginal land might have a smaller SFP , cuts to Pillar 2 will be harsh.

I

Timmaay

1st few changes that will effect farming up on the RTE website:

There is no increase on excise duty on diesel and petrol.

A relief from capital gains tax arising on disposals of farm land for farm restructuring purposes will be introduced.

The definition of registered farm partnerships will be widened to add other production partnerships, such as beef, to the 640 milk production partnerships that can already avail of the enhanced 50% rate of stock relief.

The general 25% rate and special 100% rate of stock relief, which were due to expire on 31 December 2012, have been extended for a further three years.

Birdnuts

Amid the mountain of waffle out of Howlin I heard something about an 89million euro cut to agriculture just now. He refered to the suckler cow scheme but I only got the end of it:( - Can anyone expand on this??

Birdnuts

Birdnuts wrote: »

Amid the mountain of waffle out of Howlin I heard something about an 89million euro cut to agriculture just now. He refered to the suckler cow scheme but I missed most of it

89 million saving from reps, suckler scheme and farm retirement. Didn't hear any details.

Birdnuts

Deleted User wrote: »

89 million saving from reps, suckler scheme and farm retirement. Didn't hear any details.

Bad news for the smaller farmer on poorer land so, with more to come no doubt given the governments approach to the CAP reforms:(

Pharaoh1

Not much detail yet but I see the Farm Assist assessment has gone from 85% to 100% of means which will affect those on that payment.

Just a quick calculation too that a farmer cousin of mine will lose 98 euro a month on the Child Benefit - he has six kids thats nearly 1200 a year.
Add in the motor tax, PRSI, property tax and he will suffer more than most.

countygorey

thanks

Birdnuts

Sheep grassland scheme hit too according to IFA spokesperson on Newstalk a few minutes ago.

HillFarmer

Grassland sheep scheme is gone.

The SCWS is gone.

There has been a cut to the DAS.

I'd say the budget couldnt have been worse for a sheep hill famrer who couldnt even sell the mountain lambs this year.

I am actually sick!

Think its time to sell my sheep and stop spending my childrens money.

tanko

Not surprised at all, the budget shows that this corrupt shower dont give a f**k about farming.

Birdnuts

HillFarmer wrote: »

Grassland sheep scheme is gone.

The SCWS is gone.

There has been a cut to the DAS.

I'd say the budget couldnt have been worse for a sheep hill famrer who couldnt even sell the mountain lambs this year.

I am actually sick!

Think its time to sell my sheep and stop spending my childrens money.

I can imagine pretty much all the neighbours around my place in North Mayo will be a having a very subdued Christmas and New Year on the back of this = very depressing stuff:(

Conmaicne Mara

How much did Simon the Scrooge cut DAS?

Bean_Flicker

HillFarmer wrote: »

The SCWS is gone.

Has this been confirmed any link?

Rovi

Posted on Teagasc Forestry facebook page a few mnutes ago:

Teagasc Forestry
37 minutes ago via HootSuite
Budget 2013. Minister McEntee confirms forestry premium maintained and 7000 ha of new planting. Also, funding for forest roads and thinning.

reilig

BUDGET 2013 SUMMARY:
- Disadvantaged Area Scheme DAS) will be maintained at current rates but the maximum area - apart from in mountain areas - cut from 34 hectares to 30.
- Farmers flat rate vat rebate cut from 5.2% to 4.8% from January 1, 2013, costing farmers €21m.
- Proposal that Property tax can be deducted from Single Farm Payment .
- Suckler Cow Welfare Scheme (SCWS) abolished - new Beef Data Programme paying €400 per farm (€20 for 20 cows).
- Grassland Sheep Scheme cut by 22% to €14m, but a new €3m Sheep Technology Adoption Programme.
- Forestry- funding of €116m is in place for supporting a 7,000 planting programme.

Farmers Journal

supersean1999

HillFarmer wrote: »

Grassland sheep scheme is gone.

The SCWS is gone.

There has been a cut to the DAS.

I'd say the budget couldnt have been worse for a sheep hill famrer who couldnt even sell the mountain lambs this year.

I am actually sick!

Think its time to sell my sheep and stop spending my childrens money.

same as. hope to christ a flat rate comes in to clip the ifa and coveneys wings,

rancher

supersean1999 wrote: »

same as. hope to christ a flat rate comes in to clip the ifa and coveneys wings,

+1
My money is still on Commisioner Ciolos bringing in the flat rate system, he's well aware of the inequities in the present system

epfff

rancher wrote: »

+1
My money is still on Commisioner Ciolos bringing in the flat rate system, he's well aware of the inequities in the present system

im not for flat rate
dont see why lazzy neighbours with same acerage as me get same payment for not producing anything as i am getting for producing

adne

epfff wrote: »

im not for flat rate
dont see why lazzy neighbours with same acerage as me get same payment for not producing anything as i am getting for producing

What about the person who historically hasva very low payment but has worked hard over the past ten years to expand production but is still on a low payment.

Bring in the flat rate i say

Ford4000

Im all for the flat rate its the only way the small farmer will see any benefit,

Someone said there they wouldnt like a lazy neighbour getting paid for producing less?????
What do you mean???? the payments were de-coupled ages ago your not getting paid any more than regardless of what you produce anyway!!!!!!!

babybrian

are the ministers taking a pay cut?

epfff

What do you mean???? the payments were de-coupled ages ago your not getting paid any more than regardless of what you produce anyway!!!!!!![/QUOTE]
i have a small payment due to being away in college in referance years and tring to farm from 50miles away as their was no one at home
odviously it would not be linked to 10+yrs ago it should be linked to present day production
the sfp was not there to make farmers rich they are there to pretect envoirment, secure food supply and keep it cheep
if the eu start to pay farmers to sit on land we are running into trouble with a growing population and no food sedcurity
its amazing how quick people forget why the eec was set up in the 50s

Manoffeeling

epfff wrote: »

im not for flat rate
dont see why lazzy neighbours with same acerage as me get same payment for not producing anything as i am getting for producing

You are confusing lazy with working the head.

Ford4000

epfff wrote: »

What do you mean???? the payments were de-coupled ages ago your not getting paid any more than regardless of what you produce anyway!!!!!!!

i have a small payment due to being away in college in referance years and tring to farm from 50miles away as their was no one at home
odviously it would not be linked to 10+yrs ago it should be linked to present day production
the sfp was not there to make farmers rich they are there to pretect envoirment, secure food supply and keep it cheep
if the eu start to pay farmers to sit on land we are running into trouble with a growing population and no food sedcurity
its amazing how quick people forget why the eec was set up in the 50s[/QUOTE]

I do take your point on food security and it is risky, and im very similar as my grand uncles ran the farm in reference yrs and were getting old an ill and the sfp ended up practically zero, ive bought nearly every entitlement i have and there still low value, all i do know is small farmers in general in my area would actulally stock a bit more if the payments were better as they wouldnt be so afraid of the meal bill etc, i would on the other hand be in favour too of a system wherby we would go back to a semi-coupled system which refleced yearly production versus land base not the historic bull**** weve been living throgh this past 10+ yrs

supersean1999

the way i look at it , if its capped at 40k , then if the 25k plus come down a bit in payments, and the 3-5k go up a bit, food production will be equaled out, you will be suprised how much an extra 3-5 k will help smaller paid farmers to expand, imo only fully active farmers should be paid, there should be top ups for high producing farmers,

Min

epfff wrote: »

What do you mean???? the payments were de-coupled ages ago your not getting paid any more than regardless of what you produce anyway!!!!!!!

i have a small payment due to being away in college in referance years and tring to farm from 50miles away as their was no one at home
odviously it would not be linked to 10+yrs ago it should be linked to present day production
the sfp was not there to make farmers rich they are there to pretect envoirment, secure food supply and keep it cheep
if the eu start to pay farmers to sit on land we are running into trouble with a growing population and no food sedcurity
its amazing how quick people forget why the eec was set up in the 50s[/QUOTE]

It is easy to put in minimum stockling limits or land usage with cereals so you can't have land and do nothing with it.

Kompany

What has happeneed to Stamp Duty Relief for young farmers ?

It was due to expire at the end of 2012 has it been extended beyong 2012 ?

freedominacup

Explain to me how you bring back coupled payments without farmers returning to farming the premiums?

There should certainly be a use it or loose it clause with strict policing to ensure that de-facto rental scenarios where a guy is farming from the sofa and collecting premia from anothers labour don't take hold.

manjou

supersean1999 wrote: »

the way i look at it , if its capped at 40k , then if the 25k plus come down a bit in payments, and the 3-5k go up a bit, food production will be equaled out, you will be suprised how much an extra 3-5 k will help smaller paid farmers to expand, imo only fully active farmers should be paid, there should be top ups for high producing farmers,

Why should there be top ups for high produceing and active farmers. You should be able to make a living from what ever activity you are doing without the subsidies.If there was a flat rate then farmers would have to look at there systems and see what was really happening with there money. I done it a few years ago and it was not pretty fields and sheds full of cattle and using subsidies to subsidise them..Now subs and sales go into different accounts and am focused on bottom line. you would be suprised what is making money and what isent.This winter have only half cattle i had 5 years ago but bank acc alot heaithier Ps would lose money if change to flat rate but think in long run may come out better .

Manoffeeling

manjou wrote: »

Why should there be top ups for high produceing and active farmers. You should be able to make a living from what ever activity you are doing without the subsidies.If there was a flat rate then farmers would have to look at there systems and see what was really happening with there money. I done it a few years ago and it was not pretty fields and sheds full of cattle and using subsidies to subsidise them..Now subs and sales go into different accounts and am focused on bottom line. you would be suprised what is making money and what isent.This winter have only half cattle i had 5 years ago but bank acc alot heaithier Ps would lose money if change to flat rate but think in long run may come out better .

So you are focusing more on the figures? That won't go down well with a lot of lads. I'm sofa farming this year because of circumstances. Tis my best year ever

Dunedin

is the SWS gone with immediate effect as in not paying for 2012?

thought i read somewhere last week that they were paying out for it before Christmas

st1979

Dunedin wrote: »

is the SWS gone with immediate effect as in not paying for 2012?

thought i read somewhere last week that they were paying out for it before Christmas

No the cuts will be for next year

PMU

can we get back to the actual budget please

bogman_bass

Kompany wrote: »

What has happeneed to Stamp Duty Relief for young farmers ?

It was due to expire at the end of 2012 has it been extended beyong 2012 ?

its gone.http://www.macra.ie/news/1337-macra-dismayed-at-abolition-of-stamp-duty-relief Terrible news.

tilting tim

Reported in farmers journal that stamp duty relief is gone for transferring to qualified farmers under 35. Anyone know if this is true? Hadn't heard it elsewhere. Disaster if it is.

Toplink

tilting tim wrote: »

Reported in farmers journal that stamp duty relief is gone for transferring to qualified farmers under 35. Anyone know if this is true? Hadn't heard it elsewhere. Disaster if it is.

:eek:

Cran

epfff wrote: »

im not for flat rate
dont see why lazzy neighbours with same acerage as me get same payment for not producing anything as i am getting for producing

had an IFA guy explain the proposals to me recently and he was very angry about them, to be straight he is a very nice and honest fella. The more he explained them to me the more I agreed with the proposals, even though he was totaly against. I see their reason for being against but their alternative is not based on fairness, it will never be 100% fair but the gulf at the moment based on the old system is to much and needs to be addressed....
I agree completley with the active farmer agruement, but basing someones payment on what was done 12 years ago is just wrong especially when many peoples circumstances have changed. What is to say an highly productive farmer from 12 years ago is still highly productive? What I see in many situations is the guys with the low payments have become the productive people because they had too.
The main arguement I hear is that neighbours will see some of their payments got to neighbours and will cause war, sorry but thats not a arguement its an excuse.......

on the budget bad day for drystock farmers:(

tilting tim

bogman_bass wrote: »

its gone.http://www.macra.ie/news/1337-macra-dismayed-at-abolition-of-stamp-duty-relief Terrible news.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/budget/news/budget-2013-education-coveney-in-the-dark-on-change-to-farm-stamp-duty-relief-216134.html

Sounds sketchy even for the man running the show, noonan snuck it in by saying nothing about it

jomoloney

Kompany wrote: »

What has happeneed to Stamp Duty Relief for young farmers ?

It was due to expire at the end of 2012 has it been extended beyong 2012 ?

3.1.3 Stamp Duty Relief for Young Trained Farmers
Stamp Duty relief for young trained farmers has not been extended beyond 2012. In last year’s
budget the rate of stamp duty was reduced from 6% to 2%; also a 1% rate for transfers within
the family applies to the end of 2014.

MfMan

tanko wrote: »

Not surprised at all, the budget shows that this corrupt shower dont give a f**k about farming.

It's mostly because the previous shower were corrupt that this austerity is being visited upon us now.

HillFarmer

jomoloney wrote: »

3.1.3 Stamp Duty Relief for Young Trained Farmers
Stamp Duty relief for young trained farmers has not been extended beyond 2012. In last year’s
budget the rate of stamp duty was reduced from 6% to 2%; also a 1% rate for transfers within
the family applies to the end of 2014.

Have you got the link to that document by any chance.?

Trying to find the cuts to sheep grassland and DAS
Cheers

supersean1999

manjou wrote: »

Why should there be top ups for high produceing and active farmers. You should be able to make a living from what ever activity you are doing without the subsidies.If there was a flat rate then farmers would have to look at there systems and see what was really happening with there money. I done it a few years ago and it was not pretty fields and sheds full of cattle and using subsidies to subsidise them..Now subs and sales go into different accounts and am focused on bottom line. you would be suprised what is making money and what isent.This winter have only half cattle i had 5 years ago but bank acc alot heaithier Ps would lose money if change to flat rate but think in long run may come out better .

i was trying to make the point that if you just keep the farm ticking over while working a job for example, your a different type farmer that the full time farmer, with 100 cattle etc, i dont agree with all subsides it ruined the mountains in the 80s- 90s, but there should be some top up over or between certain numbers, as farmers is the sfp not to help us produce food afterall,

Cran

HillFarmer wrote: »

Have you got the link to that document by any chance.?

Trying to find the cuts to sheep grassland and DAS
Cheers

They cut 4 million from the sheep grassland which equates to about to about 3 euro per ewe, so drop from around 9 to 6 per ewe. Then they put 3 million of it into this discussion group proposal for sheep....

supersean1999

Cran wrote: »

They cut 4 million from the sheep grassland which equates to about to about 3 euro per ewe, so drop from around 9 to 6 per ewe. Then they put 3 million of it into this discussion group proposal for sheep....

ill go to the discussion group and tell them to give back the 3e a ewe, discussion over

HillFarmer

Can anyone find the document which outlines the cuts to DAS and Sheep payment.

here is the budget website but I can't seem to find the document.

http://budget.gov.ie/Budgets/2013/2013.aspx

keep going

any talk of the DEP money is it still going

Dont be daft

freedominacup wrote: »

Explain to me how you bring back coupled payments without farmers returning to farming the premiums?

There should certainly be a use it or loose it clause with strict policing to ensure that de-facto rental scenarios where a guy is farming from the sofa and collecting premia from anothers labour don't take hold.

Its not my area of expertise but I've a suggestion.
Would an area based payment which is only guaranteed once the farm doesnt fall below minimum stocking densities work?

Of course the problem comes when you have to calculate the stocking densities. It would basically mean an evaluation of every acre of agricultural land. But are we not kind of already doing that with the classification of Disadvantaged land etc.

If you go above your stocking level your not getting more SFP so it wont put an artificial value on cattle (at least not to the same extent as before)

It would link SFP to production in some part because you'd have to carry some reasonable level of stock.

Just something thats being pinging around my head for a while.:o