Historic Vote tonight in Belfast

GRMA

Tonight in Belfast a vote will be held to decide when/if the Union Jack should be flown above Belfast city hall and a number of other public buildings.

It looks like the flag will only be flown on certain designated days, 15 I think, every year if the SDLP, SF and the Alliance party vote together as expected.

People in the south may say "it's just a flag, whats the big deal?" But for nationalist people in Belfast, Belfast city hall has been a cold house for them and it and the flag a symbol of brutal unionist oppression and discrimination. It's not just a piece of fabric.

The flag coming down is a clear sign that that unionist oppression is gone forever.

It's a symbolic sign of progress.

Hopefully things will go as expected, a good day for nationalists in the North.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

belfast is a city in the UK, of course the union jack should fly there

jesus tapdancing christ I ****ing hate the north

iDave

anything that helps dismantle and remove any memory of the Unionist apartheid state has to be encouraged

PogMoThoin

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

belfast is a city in the UK, of course the union jack should fly there

jesus tapdancing christ I ****ing hate the north

Not if it upsets the majority of the people living there

sureitsgrand

GRMA wrote: »

Tonight in Belfast a vote will be held to decide when/if the Union Jack should be flown above Belfast city hall and a number of other public buildings.

It looks like the flag will only be flown on certain designated days, 15 I think, every year if the SDLP, SF and the Alliance party vote together as expected.

People in the south may say "it's just a flag, whats the big deal?" But for nationalist people in Belfast, Belfast city hall has been a cold house for them and it and the flag a symbol of brutal unionist oppression and discrimination. It's not just a piece of fabric.

The flag coming down is a clear sign that that unionist oppression is gone forever.

It's a symbolic sign of progress.

Hopefully things will go as expected, a good day for nationalists in the North.

I imagine the compromise offer by the Alliance Party might win through. They're asking that the Union Jack be flown on a certain number of days in the year a la Stormont.

I'm an Irish republican so I'd one day love to see the tricolour being flown, but even that would be a step in the right direction in my eyes.

seamus

Don't see what the problem is with flying the national flag of the UK, in the UK.

What are they planning on flying instead?

Chuck Stone

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

belfast is a city in the UK, of course the union jack should fly there

It's also a city in Ireland where up to half the population would not consider themselves British.

jesus tapdancing christ I ****ing hate the north

How nice.

GRMA

seamus wrote: »

Don't see what the problem is with flying the national flag of the UK, in the UK.

What are they planning on flying instead?

Nothing.

Union Jack will still fly on certain days each year

kingtiger

good stuff, the Butchers Apron causes a lot of upset for many people in the Six Counties

MakeEmLaugh

iDave wrote: »

anything that helps dismantle and remove any memory of the Unionist apartheid state has to be encouraged

When, in your opinion, was Northern Ireland a "Unionist apartheid state", and when did it stop being one?

iDave

MakeEmLaugh wrote: »

When, in your opinion, was Northern Ireland a "Unionist apartheid state", and when did it stop being one?

When-the formation of Northern Ireland in the 1920s

Its been slowly dismantled since 1998

Chuck Stone

MakeEmLaugh wrote: »

When, in your opinion, was Northern Ireland a "Unionist apartheid state", and when did it stop being one?

Maybe you missed the whole civil rights thing that ended up in the massacre of the natives by the British Army?

Did you forget that bit?

norrie rugger

Is Belfast City Hall a ship now? If not then the flag should be referred to as a flag and not a jack.

Micky Dolenz

It's hard to form any sort of meaningful opinion. I don't mind but I don't live in the North and have never experienced oppression so it's easy for me to be lax about it.

GRMA

The problem some southern people have with this is mad..


For years they told republicans to embrace "democracy" (their illegitimate partitionist brand of course, not true democracy) and when they do and exercise their democratic right to dismantle the Orange State you still moan!

It really reveals their deep-set anti-Irish cap tipping tendencies.

Lenin Skynard

When are we inviting Jeffrey Donaldson and his buddies down again for a bit of a march? The last time was brilliant!

Il Trap

GRMA wrote: »

The problem some southern people have with this is mad..


For years they told republicans to embrace "democracy" (their illegitimate partitionist brand of course, not true democracy) and when they do and exercise their democratic right to dismantle the Orange State you still moan!

It really reveals their deep-set anti-Irish cap tipping tendencies.

Frankly I find the apathy of alot of southerners towards the wishes/inclinations of many their fellow Irish nationals in the north - as evidenced by some of the comments in this thread - simply galling.

c_man

seamus wrote: »

.What are they planning on flying instead?

A 20x10ft weaving of Euro, Dollar and Sterling notes. A symbol of how both sides could move past killing one another, and unite in order to get lucrative Good Friday grants.

sebastianlieken

ah great, there's gonna be rioting outside tonight. I hope it rains.

MaxSteele

GRMA wrote: »

The problem some southern people have with this is mad..


For years they told republicans to embrace "democracy" (their illegitimate partitionist brand of course, not true democracy) and when they do and exercise their democratic right to dismantle the Orange State you still moan!

It really reveals their deep-set anti-Irish cap tipping tendencies.

You're dead right. The only time I've been in the "north" is shopping in Derry. Oh and we got lost in Antrim trying to drive back to dublin once.:o I know F all about living under a unionist state regardless.

Southerners just like me love to rant, bitch, moan and condemn anything nationalist or "shinner". I'm sure there is plenty doing this :rolleyes: right now reading this thread.

You only have to watch this tripe to see the smug southerner know it alls.

Cavehill Red

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

belfast is a city in the UK, of course the union jack should fly there

Belfast is a city in Ireland. Let them fly their butcher's apron in England.

MakeEmLaugh

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Maybe you missed the whole civil rights thing that ended up in the massacre of the natives by the British Army?

Did you forget that bit?

Who do you mean by 'natives'?

iDave wrote: »

When-the formation of Northern Ireland in the 1920s

Its been slowly dismantled since 1998

You used the word 'apartheid', which is an Afrikaans word. Do you really think discrimination in Northern Ireland is/was on the same level as South Africa?

Dodge

This thread is going to be a major letdown if the vote doesn't go the way the OP wants...

fasttalkerchat

Even PSNI stations don't have flags any more!
Ridiculous that it has taken so long.

Cavehill Red

MakeEmLaugh wrote: »

You used the word 'apartheid', which is an Afrikaans word. Do you really think discrimination in Northern Ireland is/was on the same level as South Africa?

Yes, it fuking was. I visited SA during the Apartheid era, and lived in NI during the Troubles. I've been to the occupied West Bank too. Dehumanised second class citizenry assumes the same formats everywhere.

GRMA

Dodge wrote: »

This thread is going to be a major letdown if the vote doesn't go the way the OP wants...

I'm hoping the Alliance party don't bottle it!

lol

Chuck Stone

GRMA wrote: »

The problem some southern people have with this is mad..

The 'southern comforters' as I've previously called them have had their opinions formed by quasi-Unionist journalists (I use the word 'journalist' loosely) like Kevin Myers and grew accustomed to committed section 31 tossers like Connor Cruise O' Brien and Garret Fitzgerald controlling the narrative.

What you've also got is the appeasement of dinosaurs like the 'Love Ulster' gang by politicians who fancy themselves as statesmen but are little more than useful idiots for the unsavoury elements they court.

I couldn't help but feel sickened that the 'Love Ulster' hate carnival was okayed in the capital after all the **** people like those on the Garvaghy Road have had to put up with down through the years.

philologos

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

belfast is a city in the UK, of course the union jack should fly there

jesus tapdancing christ I ****ing hate the north

I was going to say the same thing.

It's obvious as to why it should be allowed.

4zn76tysfajdxp

seamus wrote: »

What are they planning on flying instead?

A Jolly Roger, I hope.

aidoh

GRMA wrote: »

People in the south may say "it's just a flag, whats the big deal?" But for nationalist people in Belfast, Belfast city hall has been a cold house for them and it and the flag a symbol of brutal unionist oppression and discrimination. It's not just a piece of fabric.

Well I'm just back from the Christmas markets there and i think you're spoofing here mate.
I'm not a nationalist but I'm originally from Dublin and I've been treated with nothing but friendliness from people on both sides of the border up here. Well, 99% of the time.

GRMA

People need to remember that it was illegal to fly an Irish Flag for years.

Removing the flag and making Belfast City hall an inclusive place is a good thing

Thats why the PSNI dont fly the union jack, to try and be inclusive and not alienate anyone because of offensive symbology of their brutal past

dlofnep

seamus wrote: »

Don't see what the problem is with flying the national flag of the UK, in the UK.

Because the flag only represents one community in Belfast, and is viewed by another community as a reminder of oppression and gerrymandering. Belfast City Council in the past has been unionist dominated, where the voices of the nationalist population fell on deaf ears. This is a symbolic move, which shows progression in the north from an orange state - to a state shared by all of the people.

Either fly the tricolour and the union flag side by side, as a symbol of inclusiveness - or fly no flags at all. I think that is the most sensible and pragmatic suggestion on how to deal with the issue of symbols.

iDave

MakeEmLaugh wrote: »

Who do you mean by 'natives'?



You used the word 'apartheid', which is an Afrikaans word. Do you really think discrimination in Northern Ireland is/was on the same level as South Africa?

Well there was inequality in political representation and deliberate attempts to reinforce this through Gerrymandering.
Inequality in employment and housing.
A biased police force. (RUC)
A state run militia (B Specials)
Pogroms in nationalist areas, I could be dramatic and call it ethnic cleansing
The Orange Order acted as a non state vehicle for intimidation and discrimination
The state existed under the ideals of a Protestant state for a Protestant people. This is clear bias in favour of one ethnic group
An unarmed human rights campaign was gunned down on the street

Yes this to me is all the hallmarks of apartheid. Yes its an Afrikaans word but it has entered the lexicon to describe institutionalised discrimination

GRMA

aidoh wrote: »

Well I'm just back from the Christmas markets there and i think you're spoofing here mate.
I'm not a nationalist but I'm originally from Dublin and I've been treated with nothing but friendliness from people on both sides of the border up here. Well, 99% of the time.

lol, I'm not spoofing.


How long have you lived there?

Not long I bet

awec

GRMA wrote: »

The problem some southern people have with this is mad..


For years they told republicans to embrace "democracy" (their illegitimate partitionist brand of course, not true democracy) and when they do and exercise their democratic right to dismantle the Orange State you still moan!

It really reveals their deep-set anti-Irish cap tipping tendencies.

A bit like your anti-British tendencies I guess?

It's a flag, I fail to see what's historic about it. What I do find very hilarious is that this supposed shared future that we hear about from Sinn Fein and their mates.

So lets see, let's remove a flag at city hall, while at the same time vote to retain the name of a childrens playpark in Newry that's named after an IRA gunman convicted of attempted murder.

You just have to laugh, but clearly those getting hot under the collar about this flag are just too bigoted and set in their ways to realise how hypocritical they are.

Also, anyone who claims Belfast City Hall is a cold house is just an out and out liar. And I have no qualms about saying that. This is the problem with sites like this, it gives the ill informed few the chance to spout their nonsense, giving as one-sided an account as they can because that suits their agenda better. I do not know a single person who views city hall as a cold house, and I was born, raised and live in NI for 23 years, with friends on both sides of the community.

Chuck Stone

Il Trap wrote: »

Frankly I find the apathy of alot of southerners towards the wishes/inclinations of many their fellow Irish nationals in the north - as evidenced by some of the comments in this thread - simply galling.

It's extremely frustrating but as I told someone in the politics forum, in my experience, there is far more solidarity with Nationalists and acceptance of the nationalist narrative of the troubles in real life in the south than the distorted image that presents on these boards and the establishment media in general.

GRMA

Chuck Stone wrote: »

It's extremely frustrating but as I told someone in the politics forum, in my experience, there is far more solidarity with Nationalists and acceptance of the nationalist narrative of the troubles in real life in the south than the distorted image that presents on these boards and the establishment media in general.

True

Gummy Panda

Maybe they should have their own flag now.

South Africa changed their flag when apartheid ended

GRMA

awec wrote: »

A bit like your anti-British tendencies I guess?

It's a flag, I fail to see what's historic about it. What I do find very hilarious is that this supposed shared future that we hear about from Sinn Fein and their mates.

So lets see, let's remove a flag at city hall, while at the same time vote to retain the name of a childrens playpark in Newry that's named after an IRA gunman convicted of attempted murder.

You just have to laugh, but clearly those getting hot under the collar about this flag are just too bigoted and set in their ways to realise how hypocritical they are.

Also, anyone who claims Belfast City Hall is a cold house is just an out and out liar. And I have no qualms about saying that. This is the problem with sites like this, it gives the ill informed few the chance to spout their nonsense, giving as one-sided an account as they can because that suits their agenda better. I do not know a single person who views city hall as a cold house, and I was born, raised and live in NI for 23 years, with friends on both sides of the community.

Being against Britain ruling part of your country makes you anti-British?

Whatever next

I have no problem saying I dont like British political establishment or their history in my country but I have no problems with ordinary British people whatsoever... why would I. Same as I dont have problems with ordinary Americans despite what that country has done to people around the world.

You must know feck all people then, if you dont know anyone who Belfast City Hall was a cold house for at one time or another

philologos

GRMA wrote: »

People need to remember that it was illegal to fly an Irish Flag for years.

Removing the flag and making Belfast City hall an inclusive place is a good thing

Thats why the PSNI dont fly the union jack, to try and be inclusive and not alienate anyone because of offensive symbology of their brutal past

How is denying the factual nature of Belfast being a city in the UK going to make it more inclusive?

Surely if people stopped caring about tribalism and accepted the fact that most people in Northern Ireland are fine being in the UK then things would be much better?

philologos

Il Trap wrote: »

Frankly I find the apathy of alot of southerners towards the wishes/inclinations of many their fellow Irish nationals in the north - as evidenced by some of the comments in this thread - simply galling.

When you realise that even most people who identify as Catholic in Northern Ireland are happy under UK rule being apathetic is perfectly reasonable.

awec

GRMA wrote: »

Being against Britain ruling part of your country makes you anti-British?

Whatever next

I have no problem saying I dont like British political establishment or their history in my country but I have no problems with ordinary British people whatsoever... why would I. Same as I dont have problems with ordinary Americans despite what that country has done to people around the world.

You must know feck all people then, if you dont know anyone who Belfast City Hall was a cold house for at one time or another

What, 20 or 30 years ago?

The number of people who flock to the markets on a yearly basis, the number of people who sit there eating their lunch, the number of people who visit it when the big screens are about etc would show pretty clearly that you are talking out of your hoop. Unless of course you're going to sit here and tell us that it's only prod unionists who engage in any of the above activities.

Belfast and Northern Ireland has moved on, it's time you did too.

Admittedly I don't hang around with a bunch of sad Neanderthals who get irritated by a bit of cloth. I guess I'm lucky in that regard.

hawkwind23

aidoh wrote: »

Well I'm just back from the Christmas markets there and i think you're spoofing here mate.
I'm not a nationalist but I'm originally from Dublin and I've been treated with nothing but friendliness from people on both sides of the border up here. Well, 99% of the time.

thats a great thing to hear on a thread with such ignorance and bitterness.
as a native of our great city i welcome you and hope you come again.
great to have people visit with open hearts and minds and experience whats good about the city.

Chuck Stone

awec wrote: »

So lets see, let's remove a flag at city hall, while at the same time vote to retain the name of a childrens playpark in Newry that's named after an IRA gunman convicted of attempted murder

You say that as if the UK isn't plastered in street names and memorials honouring mercenaries and thugs soldiers that fought for corporations and colonists Queen and Country.

awec

Chuck Stone wrote: »

You say that as if the UK isn't plastered in street names and memorials honouring mercenaries and thugs soldiers that fought for corporations and colonists Queen and Country.

Ah here we go... this old chesnut.

How can you preach about a shared future whilst naming childrens playparks after high profile members of the IRA? What exactly is "shared" about that?

What exactly is "neutral" about that?

It's Sinn Fein trying to appease their few narrow minded voters. It's simply them showing that they can appeal to the hardline, backward few. They should forget about that sort of individual altogether, let them wallow in their bitterness.

Mal-Adjusted

Just to be nitpicky, it's the Union flag, not the Union jack.

also, who are these "southerner" that are sometimes mentioned? My country is called Ireland, just Ireland, thank you.

GRMA

awec wrote: »

What, 20 or 30 years ago?

The number of people who flock to the markets on a yearly basis, the number of people who sit there eating their lunch, the number of people who visit it when the big screens are about etc would show pretty clearly that you are talking out of your hoop. Unless of course you're going to sit here and tell us that it's only prod unionists who engage in any of the above activities.

Belfast and Northern Ireland has moved on, it's time you did too.

Admittedly I don't hang around with a bunch of sad Neanderthals who get irritated by a bit of cloth. I guess I'm lucky in that regard.

So the SDLP, SF and the Alliance party are all "sad Neanderthals" in your book because they want to make things more inclusive?

Why don't you think no flags flying would make things more inclusive?

awec

Mal-Adjusted wrote: »

Just to be nitpicky, it's the Union flag, not the Union jack.

also, who are these "southerner" that are sometimes mentioned? My country is called Ireland, just Ireland, thank you.

Presumably the people who live within the 26 counties and under the Constitution of Ireland, and not those who live in the 6 counties where the rule of law is provided by the United Kingdom?

I'd have thought it was obvious who he was talking about.

awec

GRMA wrote: »

So the SDLP, SF and the Alliance party are all "sad Neanderthals" in your book because they want to make things more inclusive?

Why don't you think no flags flying would make things more inclusive?

I don't care about the flag, take it down, keep it up, whatever.

This rubbish you are spouting, with the old oppression cap on is a load of oul sh!te. You are trying to paint a picture of poor, innocent nationalists, always the victims. "Orange state", "brutal unionist oppression" etc etc, just some of the ridiculous rubbish that has been floated in this thread.

You really think the majority of nationalists in the north give a fcuk what flag flies over city hall? More fool you if so.

Grayson

I couldn't give one of these if the union jack is flown (yeah, I know it's only if it's on a ship)

Its a huge city in the UK. Are people seriously expecting everyone to pretend it isn't? Is that what political reality is, a magical illusionary construct.

I honestly hope that we never end up with NI as part of the republic. Seriously, would anyone really want to take responsability for that shower.

awec

I actually have a lot of time for Sinn Fein, I really do admire them as a party. I think politically, they are the most astute party in the north. They do the best work on the ground for their constituents. I personally disagree with their stance on the constitutional issue but that is their right to hold that stance and if a UI is ever voted for by the majority in the north then I'd support that 100%.

Until such a time though, NI is part of the United Kingdom. Belfast is a UK city. The flag of the UK is the Union Flag. As such, I personally fail to see the issue with it flying at city hall. I believe the wishes of the majority in the north have to be abided by and the majority at the moment wish to remain in the UK.

Sinn Fein and their voters are entitled to their constitutional views, but this dilution and removal of anything remotely british is ridiculous and backwards.

I also refute entirely that NI, not just Belfast, is a cold house for nationalists. The only people who feel oppressed, or part of a cold house, are those who want to feel oppressed, or want it to be seen as a cold house.