Should I put him down?

ProfanityURL

So I'm having a problem with my dog. He's a large, long haired german shepherd and I love him ta bits but I've been having some problems with him lately.

We live on a 10 acre bit of land with some other animals; sheep and ponys. For a long time (6 years) he was allowed free range of the land and there were no problems, but for some reason he attacked and killed one of the sheep which is totally out of character for him. He grew up with the animals and never paid much heed to them to it came as a serious shock when it happened.

The other problem I have with him is a serious aggression that he shows to other dogs. He was attacked as a pup by another dog which I think triggered it and it's a behaviour that I haven't been able to change as hard as I have tried.

So after the sheep incident he has to be locked up in his pen for most of the day and brought out for long walks in the evening to exercise him. He's very sad being locked up, but I don't want to risk him doing something like that again, especially in case he decided to venture in to the neighbours farm and attack his livestock. Also, the problem with walking him is that if we take him down the road for a walk he will try to attack any dogs that we encounter. He is kept on a lead and wears a muzzle but he is still potentially dangerous because he is a really big dog. I would have no fear of him ever attacking a person, he'l really good even with strangers, but after the sheep incident I'm not taking any chances.

The level of confinement that we have to place on him has diminished his quality of life and this, paired with the potential threat to livestock and people has made me think about putting him down. I really would hate to have to do it, but maybe its the better option. I certainly wouldn't like to just have him locked up all the time. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

ISDW

Did you get him as a pup? so, is he 6 years old?

ProfanityURL

Yes I bought him at 8 weeks old. Well the incident with the sheep happened about 6 months ago and we have been trying to find ways to deal with it, so the dog is now 7.

mark renton

If you have 10 acres then why not build him a bigger pen?

ProfanityURL

Well it's not my land it belongs to my parents and the other animals inhabit the rest of it. My father won't give me any of the land to create an enclosure for him. To be honest if it were up to him the dog would have been put down right away at the time of the sheep's death.

smcgiff

The dog hasn't done anything other than act within his nature. A large dog killing a sheep if given the opportunity is not surprising. Can he not be confined in a less limiting environment?

ISDW

So you bring a puppy into your family, haven't trained him properly, and now that this lack of training is showing, the option is to kill him?

I know that sounds really harsh, but that is the truth of it. Has he ever been socialised with other dogs? what work did you do with him around livestock, or was he just left to get on with them?

Was he seen killing the sheep? is it possible that another dog got onto the land, and your boy came upon the scene, and was labelled the miscreant?

Please don't kill him, work with him instead, get a professional in to help, give the dog lots of exercise, maybe look into classes locally, agility, flyball, all sorts of things for him to use his brain and wear him out.

mark renton

Putting him down at 7 is a bit drastic, most dogs when out for a walk will want to fight, or just growl at other dogs, could even be suffering with an identity crisis being around a lot of other animals!! ... Maybe at least give him to the dogs home as he sounds like a natural healthy dog

tuxy

You live with your parents then?

Sounds like your dog is not wanted there. I would be looking at moving if I was you.

ProfanityURL

ISDW wrote: »

So you bring a puppy into your family, haven't trained him properly, and now that this lack of training is showing, the option is to kill him?

This is exactly the kind of reaction I was afraid of. You've made a few critical assumptions there that aren't true. I've trained him carefully from a young age. Anyone who's been to the house has commented on his obedience and good nature. He was introduced to the animals from a young age and trained to behave appropriately around them which is why we had no problems for 6 years. He was socialised with other dogs but was attacked by a dog in the park early on in the process which gave him an intrinsic fear of other dogs. Unfortunately for whatever reason, he did kill a sheep. Please don't make out that I'm jumping to this option prematurely, but I'm interested in hearing people's opinion on the problem and receive alternative advice. It would be an absolute last resort, but if the dog's life can't be made better or if I can't remove the potential danger that he represents to others then this may have to happen. I'd love to hear from anyone who had similar problems that were able to fix them.

ProfanityURL

tuxy wrote: »

You live with your parents then?

Sounds like your dog is not wanted there. I would be looking at moving if I was you.

Yeah well I'm in my final year of university. I will not be in a position to move for at least another year. It's only my father who has the problem with him, justified by the fact that he did kill one of his sheep, but he's very stubborn about any alternative that I suggest.

ISDW

ProfanityURL wrote: »

This is exactly the kind of reaction I was afraid of. You've made a few critical assumptions there that aren't true. I've trained him carefully from a young age. Anyone who's been to the house has commented on his obedience and good nature. He was introduced to the animals from a young age and trained to behave appropriately around them which is why we had no problems for 6 years. He was socialised with other dogs but was attacked by a dog in the park early on in the process which gave him an intrinsic fear of other dogs. Unfortunately for whatever reason, he did kill a sheep. Please don't make out that I'm jumping to this option prematurely, but I'm interested in hearing people's opinion on the problem and receive alternative advice. It would be an absolute last resort, but if the dog's life can't be made better or if I can't remove the potential danger that he represents to others then this may have to happen. I'd love to hear from anyone who had similar problems that were able to fix them.

I also made some suggestions, which you seem to be ignoring, only jumping on the negative. you also didn't answer if he was seen killing the sheep.

Did you take him to the vet, to see if there could be a medical reason for this complete change in behaviour?

mark renton

Actually I think you may be assuming dogs are traumatized by fighting with other dogs which I don't believe is the case... Pack animals commonly fight over things such as heirarchy or food, so I dont believe dogs are traumatized by fights when it is a regular part of their makeup. German Shepard types are very very protective which is why they make excellent guard dogs. When you are out walking with the dog it is most likely agressive becaues you are there, and its instinctlvely guarding you. I would guess that if the dog met other dogs on a neutral ground and you were not around then it would not attack the other dog.

If your dad wants rid of the dog then find a suitable home.

carav10

Unfortunately much and all that people will say it, a dog can NEVER be said to be 100% stockproofed. You will often hear people say 'oh my dog is fine with sheep' but a dog can never be trusted to the 100%. Same goes for saying he's 100% with humans. Things can change.

Sorry OP to hear your situation, some people are jumping to conclusions alright in relation to the training you've put into your dog.

Anything can change at any point to where a dog previously ok with stock can 'turn'. Your dog definitely cannot be trusted with sheep again left loose. He might be fine when you're present but cannot be trusted when you're not. Are you positive he was the culprit? You do have options if you are.

1. Create a pen although this wouldn't appear to be an option but a dog run wouldn't be difficult to build? And exercised under supervision.
2. Find him a home where there's no stock nearby, e.g a non-stock farm.
3. It might be worth your while posing your question to the hunting forum as many working dogs have to be stockproofed and you'll get a lot more relevant practical advice in relation to this problem there than here.

Good luck with trying to do something with him, luckily it was your farm and not your neighbours as they're within their rights to shoot on the spot as you probably know.

Just to add, were there any previous warning signs that he was interested in sheep? Such as staring fixedly not breaking off, or glued to your side watching you the whole time? It's been said to me while stockproofing my own that the ones to worry about are not those who take a little run & turn back, but the ones who stay fixedly by your side staring at you as if to say 'look I'm here all obedient' but as soon as the back is turned....

navara man

put him down before he kill more sheep

DBB

navara man wrote: »

did the farmer send you a bill for the sheep your dog kill ......put him down before he kill more sheep the farmer should have done that when he kill the sheep

Mod note: Please note Navara Man that the sheep belonged to the OP's father.
To everyone: threads like these often go berserk. So, at this early stage, I'd ask that everyone remain civil, constructive, and refrain from provocative posting.
Do not reply to this post on-thread.
Thanks,
DBB

strandroad

OP, do you plan to move away and take the dog with you? In which case you'd be looking for an interim plan for that year.

Or do you know for sure that it's not an option? You may want to contact some rescues then to find out if they can help you rehome him to where he will not be exposed to farm animals or sheep. You're saying that he has been socialised and can live with people. Although he would have to be assessed on his attitude towards dogs.

I don't think that he should be pts seeing how he was left with your stock and as said above they can't be trusted 100%, maybe unless they are working sheepdogs which I understand he wasn't.

mlumley

You can try an old and tried and tested meathod that will (might) cure him of the sheep problem. While I was Living in England, farmers would put friend sdogs in with a Tup, (Ram) and the Tup would go for the dog, curing of his agression toward sheep.

The only other thing is a bloody good dog trainer.

Dont kill the dog for not being trained to how you want him to be. Spend a few bob and have him trained.

carav10

mlumley wrote: »

You can try an old and tried and tested meathod that will (might) cure him of the sheep problem. While I was Living in England, farmers would put friend sdogs in with a Tup, (Ram) and the Tup would go for the dog, curing of his agression toward sheep.

There are people who do this alright & can be effective for some dogs. But for a dog who is potentially aggressive, it may not be the best method as it could actually make the problem worse. Also not recommended for young pups as it can make them very nervous if done at the wrong stage of development. Basically, know your dog before doing this. But worth considering. TBH, once a dog has discovered that the local woolly things are incredible fun & chases with intent to kill, you're going to have a very difficult time training it out of him.

Best trainers for this kind of thing are the working sheepdog trainers who will know straight off if you have a serious problem on your hands. If it turns out you do, your only option is to rehome.

And wearing him out with agility, flyball etc will not be enough to stop him from seeking out sheep again.

anniehoo

ProfanityURL wrote: »

He grew up with the animals and never paid much heed to them to it came as a serious shock when it happened.

At 7,this is a very odd behaviour trait to exhibit considering he's grown up with sheep. Are you 100% sure it was him? I have to ask as i'm only going by your description here. Have you had him vet checked recently? A lot of medical conditions can make animals act out of character.

wrote:

The other problem I have with him is a serious aggression that he shows to other dogs. He was attacked as a pup by another dog which I think triggered it and it's a behaviour that I haven't been able to change as hard as I have tried.

Was he alone in the sheep killing? Is there a neighbours dog that possibly might be roaming too?

Ok so, he's 7 now, has a history of "fear aggression" with other dogs, but it's not making sense to me why all of a sudden he attacks and kills the one animal that have never presented a threat to him. Sheep are the opposite of a threat. I really don't understand why a 7 year old dog, with "dog problems" would randomly kill a sheep.

wrote:

the problem with walking him is that if we take him down the road for a walk he will try to attack any dogs that we encounter. He is kept on a lead and wears a muzzle but he is still potentially dangerous because he is a really big dog.

He's not potentially dangerous because he's a big dog, he's potentially dangerous because that's what you think he is and what you're acting like he is. Are you walking him on a short lead with a muzzle,tensed up???This isn't exercise of any sort.It's stressful for both of you, increasing cortisol levels (not good long term) and being counterproductive. The walk becomes "high energy & stressful" rather than "high energy, stress release".

Big dog does NOT equal dangerous dog.

I'm genuinely trying to put myself in your situation here. You've had this dog since your mid teens (Dad ruling the roost by the sounds of it), you come and go, with the dog getting hit and miss attention. This isn't a bad thing, i was very much like this in my late teens. I loved my dog, she had her issues but lived at home and the only rows i ever had with my dad was over the dog. When you're the primary carer for your own animal in your own home then i can give advice/lecture you,but right now i should be a lot more understanding.

wrote:

I would have no fear of him ever attacking a person, he's really good even with strangers, but after the sheep incident I'm not taking any chances.

Absolutely NO dog owner should, no matter how much they think they know their animal should EVER think their pet is completely safe around a child. (edit:OP said person not child,my mistake)

wrote:

The level of confinement that we have to place on him has diminished his quality of life and this, paired with the potential threat to livestock and people has made me think about putting him down. I really would hate to have to do it, but maybe its the better option. I certainly wouldn't like to just have him locked up all the time.

Your GSD is middle age and has the potential to live for another 7ish years,fingers crossed. It's up to you whether you want these years to be confined,lonely,degenerative & unhappy which they will be if he's kept the way he is OR socialised,fun,caring and reformed if you put the effort into it. YOU can make the difference to your dog, IF you want to.

smcgiff wrote: »

The dog hasn't done anything other than act within his nature. A large dog killing a sheep if given the opportunity is not surprising. Can he not be confined in a less limiting environment?

Killing a sheep, completely out of character is NOT within THIS dogs nature. We need to help the OP (clearly a young guy, who's father will get the final say).

We make the mistake all the time in here thinking posters are in stable "grown up" living situations with endless finances,with time and resources to fix their pets problems. When i had my dog (she was far from perfect) she literally transgressed my teenage years (where i had no say), early 20s(a lot of say) to mid 20s ( i got all the say,but she was far from perfect at that stage).So we need to give the OP a break, he's come on here asking for genuine help. There's no point berating him for the situation they're in now, but only offer advice for the future.

ISDW wrote: »

work with him instead, get a professional in to help, give the dog lots of exercise, maybe look into classes locally, agility, flyball, all sorts of things for him to use his brain and wear him out.

+1

If this isnt possible, you need to look at either major lifestyle changes (which i can imagine isn't possible with your dad), or rehoming him because the issues he's showing now without YOUR help won't get any better.

john47832 wrote: »

If your dad wants rid of the dog then find a suitable home.

You obviously love this dog, but think about him and not you. Can you give him the attention he needs right now? Is he confined for longer than he needs to be?Does he get the attention he warrants when you're not there?

ProfanityURL

Thanks anniehoo, comprehensive, well thought out advice there. My biggest constraints are the fact that I am not financially independant, I pay most of my own way through university, but that doesn't leave me with money left over to invest in fencing or improving the dogs accomodation. The other problem is that even with the money my father is opposed to any modifications being made to the property in order to give the dog a larger living environment. If I can find a job and a place to live in a years time I would intend to take the dog with me, but who knows if I will even be able to get a job. I may have to look at the option of going abroad. If that happens my mother and sisters are very happy to take care of the dog, feed, exercise him, etc. But walking him is a problem because while I can restrain him in the event that he goes for another dog, my mother and sisters are not strong enough and end up getting dragged by him.

I see him now with the sheep and he's definitely different. When they see him they run because they have obviously developed a fear of him, and this seems to trigger his chase instinct so I have to constantly be with him if he is let out on the property. I have been training him using distraction techniques to divert his focus when he is around the sheep but at the end of they day I would not trust him to be left out with them again, and if it happened again he would definitely be put down. I may have to give him away, but finding a suitable home away from stock animals and where he will not be able to ramble or get at other dogs will be difficult. I would have to be totally up front to anyone interested in taking him and explain the problems I have had so that they would not experience the same issues. Knowing this I'm not sure many people would be interested in taking him or in a position to give him a good home.

strandroad

Looks like rehoming him could be a better option then, if you are not clear on your own future. If you contact some rescues just for a chat they may have more suggestions as to what you can realistically do. There are some GSD specific rescues in UK as far as I know; again perhaps it's not realistic to have him rehomed there(although there are initiatives transporting dogs to UK rescues from Ireland) but they may be able to advise on the phone. I see dogs with issues on rescue pages all the time and they do get rehomed if they are a good match (to homes with no children/other pets/stock, whatever the issue is) but you'd have to be upfront about his issues and spend time arranging everything.

ppink

ProfanityURL wrote: »

I may have to give him away, but finding a suitable home away from stock animals and where he will not be able to ramble or get at other dogs will be difficult. I would have to be totally up front to anyone interested in taking him and explain the problems I have had so that they would not experience the same issues. Knowing this I'm not sure many people would be interested in taking him or in a position to give him a good home.

anyone who takes a dog from a rescue is in that boat though? We have adopted dogs that we had no idea what issues they would have when we got them home. I currently am surrounded by sheep and have dogs who would be only too delighted to make chops out of them all. I just have to be vigilent, which was my choice when I took them on and is no problem to me. There is no harm in you having a look around to see if you could find him a suitable home. I am not sure what other alternatives you have really, it is not easy.

rorrissey

ProfanityURL wrote: »

But walking him is a problem because while I can restrain him in the event that he goes for another dog, my mother and sisters are not strong enough and end up getting dragged by him.

Halti's can be very helpful when trying to control a strong dog.

Sigma Force

You might be able to increase the size of his pen your father can't surely object to a few more feet of space being taken up by a dog pen?

You are doing well to take him for long walks, but you can also if possible find the time to start training him on the lead even if you can't get to a dog trainer there are trainers that use humane methods of training that can help give you advise maybe someone on here can suggest a few things. Clicker training can help also.

If you can't do the above straight away but can maybe when you're on Christmas holidays so in the mean time give the dog some toys in his pen. Really tough toys like black kongs..get the largest one you can get and check out zooplus they have a big yellow egg toy that can be hard to destroy. Hiding his food in kongs and freezing some food (check out the kong website for tips) can help keep his mind occupied and also if his tummy is ok with it the occasional raw bone.

Main thing is never let him off the lead but you can get..or might already have those really super long leads they use for horses (not sure what the proper name is) but you can buy them for dogs too so you can have him on a really long lead for him to run about but still have control over him.

GRMA

Would you not just tie him up with a very long chain tied to a post, and put him in his pen at night? No need for fencing etc.

If he's hostile to stock he can't be let loose at all

dodderangler

In a way you should be thankfull it was your fathers sheep that he killed and not another farmers sheep as he would've been shot on the spot which the farmer is well entitled to do so
my mates husky done it and farmer left his dog on the doorstep dead and lookin for money for his dead sheep which they had to pay

él statutorio

There is another suggestion.

An electric collar. I know electric collars are not popular with a lot of folks here but in a case like this it might work. It'd allow you to set a boundary between the dog and the sheep. It's a better option then having him PTS.