Rented house and poor BER

Hailhail1967

Long story short, I moved into a rented house a couple of moths ago (fixed term of 12 months lease). I was foolish and never looked into energy rating etc.

I now can hardly keep warm in the house and afraid I will actually end up ill or in serious debt. I have since found out the energy rating of the house is E1, which is shocking. All the recommendations listed for the house have never been carried out but I know they are only recommendations.

Is this my tough luck? Or would I have any way of getting out of lease?

D3PO

Hailhail1967 wrote: »

Is this my tough luck? Or would I have any way of getting out of lease?

its your tough luck. you should have checked before you signed the lease there is a legal obligation to provide a BER but not to provide a hosue at a certain BER level unfortunatly

cmssjone

We had exactly the same problem. We also had other issues with our LL as well. We were told that if the BER is not produced upon the signing of the contracts then the contract is null and void. When we mentioned this to our LL, he got pretty angry and asked us to leave by the end of the week. We found a new place and received our deposit back in full. Give threshold.ie a ring and constantly hassle the LL. Keep telling him you are too cold. Good luck!

Rasmus

This is true - if there is no BER, technically your lease isn't worth the paper it's printed on. Getting the LL to see it this way may be another story though.
How did you find out it was E1?

D3PO

cmssjone wrote: »

. We were told that if the BER is not produced upon the signing of the contracts then the contract is null and void. !

thats incorrect. legally they must provide a BER but they do not have ro produce it when the contracts ar ebeing signed. You are entitled to ask for it. the op has seen the BER so they have one.

they are therefore stuck as there is no min BER rating that must be provided

D3PO

Rasmus wrote: »

This is true - if there is no BER, technically your lease isn't worth the paper it's printed on. Getting the LL to see it this way may be another story though.
How did you find out it was E1?

bit lof logic here Rasmus, The OP knows the BER rating therfore a BER exists,

Ted_YNWA

Similar issue here, BER need to be provided for properties rented after 1/1/09. I am renting since 2005 in same property, presume I just need to ask LL. Is he obliged to get one, as technically house is classsed as being rented before this date

StillWaters

Ted_YNWA wrote: »

Similar issue here, BER need to be provided for properties rented after 1/1/09. I am renting since 2005 in same property, presume I just need to ask LL. Is he obliged to get one, as technically house is classsed as being rented before this date

I'm not sure of the legalities of this, but if you are living in a house 7 years, a BER probably won't tell you anything you don't know. You would be better off negotiating for items you know will make a difference rather than agitating for a BER which as stated, the LL does not have to act on anyway.
You could get windows sealed or an extra layer of insulation in the attic for example for the price of a BER cert.

cmssjone

D3PO wrote: »

thats incorrect. legally they must provide a BER but they do not have ro produce it when the contracts ar ebeing signed. You are entitled to ask for it. the op has seen the BER so they have one.

they are therefore stuck as there is no min BER rating that must be provided

Sorry, you are correct. I have a feeling that the reason our LL got so p1ssy was that he hadn't a BER cert and this would have invalidated the contract.

D3PO

cmssjone wrote: »

Sorry, you are correct. I have a feeling that the reason our LL got so p1ssy was that he hadn't a BER cert and this would have invalidated the contract.

your probably right

Hailhail1967

Ya I was researching it online and managed to cop you could get the BER cert online. I was obviously very foolish when renting.

I rent through an agency so I am hoping that possibly they may convince the landlord to let me out of the contract so I can move to anoter house with them. The landlord does have a few other houses to. The house has gotten so bad I will probably have to cut my losses and loose my deposit anyway, just going to end up sick i the house. That or completely broke.

sydthebeat

Ted_YNWA wrote: »

Similar issue here, BER need to be provided for properties rented after 1/1/09. I am renting since 2005 in same property, presume I just need to ask LL. Is he obliged to get one, as technically house is classsed as being rented before this date

You are entitled to request to see the BER when ever your current lease runs out and you are due to sign a new one.

Hailhail1967

Go onto the seai website and you can check if your property has one All you need is your mprn number from your esb meter.

BostonB

Rasmus wrote: »

This is true - if there is no BER, technically your lease isn't worth the paper it's printed on. ...

Where are you getting that from, that you can state it as fact?

Do you know has it ever been challenged legally and the tenant has won, and not had to pay the rent on the remainder of their lease/contract?

AK333

Just an aside, not sure if its helpful, but all landlords now have to register residential tenancies in the PRTB - ask your landlord if he has? Maybe you can assert pressure for him to cancel your lease and return your deposit. Good luck

Rasmus

BostonB wrote: »

Where are you getting that from, that you can state it as fact?

Do you know has it ever been challenged legally and the tenant has won, and not had to pay the rent on the remainder of their lease/contract?

http://www.irishlandlord.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1593

BostonB

Thats a no then.

http://www.daft.ie/discussions.daft?dcn[discussion_id]=140633&dcn[forum_id]=2

Hailhail1967

If for example your tenancy was never registered, would this give you any chance of getting out of a lease? Or is that clutching at straws. I was never informed my tenancy was registered, should/ would I have been notified if I was registered?

Also I would like to state I am not trying to get out of my lease for any under hand reason I would be happy to move to a different house owned by my landlord or agency if that was possible, I am genuinely worried about my health here.

sydthebeat

Rasmus wrote: »

http://www.irishlandlord.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1593

Without bringing things off topic, but bloody hell that thread reflects disgracefully on those posters.

BostonB

Also slightly off topic the Ber system is kinda flawed as its a guesstimate of how well a building will do, and as a result older buildings will never do well on it. Also even if a building has a good Ber, is there's any way of knowing if that actually being achieved by the building? For example if something is built badly it could be highly compromised with regard insulation and heating.

BostonB

Hailhail1967 wrote: »

If for example your tenancy was never registered, would this give you any chance of getting out of a lease? Or is that clutching at straws. I was never informed my tenancy was registered, should/ would I have been notified if I was registered?

Also I would like to state I am not trying to get out of my lease for any under hand reason I would be happy to move to a different house owned by my landlord or agency if that was possible, I am genuinely worried about my health here.

Not being registered isn't a valid reason for breaking the lease.

Have you asked the LL about it, that the building seems impossible to heat. Perhaps theres a problem with it. If the LL does nothing about it, you could break your contract then?

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/repairs_maintenance_and_minimum_physical_standards.html

Hailhail1967

BostonB wrote: »

Not being registered isn't a valid reason for breaking the lease.

Have you asked the LL about it, that the building seems impossible to heat. Perhaps theres a problem with it. If the LL does nothing about it, you could break your contract then?

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/repairs_maintenance_and_minimum_physical_standards.html

I had assumed our boiler was faulty (which it was) landlord was very understanding and replaced the boiler with the same model one.

So I gave it a couple of weeks but its getting far worse now with it getting colder outside. So I put it all in an email the weekend to my agency and I am giving them until today to reply before I call in to them in the morning to discuss it. I do not want to shaft my LL but i have to put myself first at the same time.

The BER statement was very damning to the property. Typical built 90's house put up cheaply and in a hurry. Looks lovely from the outside but has windows made of paper and my pants have more insulation. I am very foolish for not looking into all this firstly.

BostonB

Its not just the 90's because of dire enforcement, the building sector has never had building standards adequately enforced. Even new buildings may be poorly constructed and energy inefficient.

Perhaps if the LL is understanding he might be open to discussion on this. If you approach them in a rational and calm way. Saying its simply too cold. Improving insulation and perhaps even new windows might be on the LL plans for the buildings, and can be done quite quickly. What are the heating bills?

Spindle

There is some ambiguity in relation for the need to have BER provided by the vendor/landlord when signing a contract for rental or purchase of a house. It is required in the contract, and when not provided by the vendor/landlord in the contract it could void the contract.

This however has never been tested in a court and you would need to go to court to prove you had a case to cancel the contract. Obviously with a rental contract this is never going to be worth it.

The best approach is always going to the letting agent/landlord in a friendly manner, explain the situation and see what they can do for you. It is always better than charging in head first with half-baked legal arguments to try and break a lease.

Going OT:

There really needs to be a compulsory course given in college/secondary school to educate people on issues like contract law, what their rights in rentals are, how to pick a suitable house to live in, budgeting etc etc.

The amount of people accepting poor standard of rentals without conducting any research to see if a rental suits their needs, not knowing their rights etc, and allowing dodgy landlords is shocking. Like wise the number of people who rent and expect they can break contracts without any ramifications, and have no obligations as renters is also equally high.

BostonB

A LL might take the hit on doing up the property if there's a good tenant there. Its better to have a property occupied especially during winter than an empty one, even if the costs of repair, enhancement means there no income from the property for a month or two. The LL might have been putting it off till now. But at some point all building need to refurbished. With respect to windows, insulation etc.

You could suggest all this to the LL in a non confrontational manner, they may agree with you. But if they do agree, make sure they agree to a rapid timescale for doing it. If all the problems are fixed then your reason for choosing that property to rent are still valid.

BostonB

Spindle wrote: »

....Going OT:

There really needs to be a compulsory course given in college/secondary school to educate people on issues like contract law, what their rights in rentals are, how to pick a suitable house to live in, budgeting etc etc.

The amount of people accepting poor standard of rentals without conducting any research to see if a rental suits their needs, not knowing their rights etc, and allowing dodgy landlords is shocking. Like wise the number of people who rent and expect they can break contracts without any ramifications, and have no obligations as renters is also equally high.

Couldn't agree more.

Hailhail1967

BostonB wrote: »

A LL might take the hit on doing up the property if there's a good tenant there. Its better to have a property occupied especially during winter than an empty one, even if the costs of repair, enhancement means there no income from the property for a month or two. The LL might have been putting it off till now. But at some point all building need to refurbished. With respect to windows, insulation etc.

You could suggest all this to the LL in a non confrontational manner, they may agree with you. But if they do agree, make sure they agree to a rapid timescale for doing it. If all the problems are fixed then your reason for choosing that property to rent are still valid.

Ya I understand this is essentially my own problem, i'm not blaming the landlord in any way, it was my own foolishness. In the rush to get a new home I fell in love with this one as it was exactly what I wanted. I have stated my points to this end to my letting agent. I will just have to wait and see what reply I get.

Spindle wrote: »

Going OT:

There really needs to be a compulsory course given in college/secondary school to educate people on issues like contract law, what their rights in rentals are, how to pick a suitable house to live in, budgeting etc etc.

The amount of people accepting poor standard of rentals without conducting any research to see if a rental suits their needs, not knowing their rights etc, and allowing dodgy landlords is shocking. Like wise the number of people who rent and expect they can break contracts without any ramifications, and have no obligations as renters is also equally high.

I am over 10 years renting privately in 3 different countries and have never had a problem before, I have never had 1 cent of a deposit held on me, in fact most landlords try to get me to stay on when I finally leave. I suppose my luck in choosing places in the past was the problem here, I overlooked the energy rating of the house. Anyway a BER does exist and I have no intention of going to court or anything like it. If the landlord digs his feet in, I will either have to suffer it out or else I will have to leave the premises and fork out for whatever I will owe while the property lies empty, which I'm assuming will be a long time as with the rating of the house no one would want to live in it.

The gas bill was €340, esb was €146. No spare rooms in house heated or lights etc on. Bare in mind the house is freezing. I sleep in a hoody in bed. I wear a hat around all day when i'm in the house. Having the heating on for 3 or 4 hours makes no difference to the feeling of warmth in the house.

BostonB

Where is the heat going? Is their insulation in the roof, double glazing, draughts? Where? Is it stone walls or something?

Hailhail1967

There is an attached garage which is obviously a huge problem. I knew this moving in, but it was something I needed and my previous two houses had a similar garage attached. The windows feel like there is nothing there at all. Standing within 3 feet of them feels like standing beside the freezer with the door open. Although not an actual draft. The BER made reference to the windows and how they were a huge problem. That same feeling of cold around the windows is the same around the front and rear doors, this is also reffered to in the BER cert.


The heat from the open gas fire does not heat the room at all, it seems to go straight up the chimney.

With the heating on for say 3 hours we would only have luke warm water from thw tap, although I must stress the rads feel hot.

BostonB

I don't get the impression your going to fix most of that with out spending thousands . I think you need to have a chat with the LL. To ask them can they refurb that propery. If they are are unable or unwilling to fix it, then I think you have to look at your options.

In my opinion, You'd be taking a 50:50 gamble to break the contract and hope the LL doesn't insist on the rent for the period of the lease, or if it goes to dispute with the PRTB that they'd find in your favour. Maybe the LL is a decent sort and will let you go, or will do the work.

Spindle

Hailhail1967 wrote: »

Ya I understand this is essentially my own problem, i'm not blaming the landlord in any way, it was my own foolishness. In the rush to get a new home I fell in love with this one as it was exactly what I wanted. I have stated my points to this end to my letting agent. I will just have to wait and see what reply I get.



I am over 10 years renting privately in 3 different countries and have never had a problem before, I have never had 1 cent of a deposit held on me, in fact most landlords try to get me to stay on when I finally leave. I suppose my luck in choosing places in the past was the problem here, I overlooked the energy rating of the house. Anyway a BER does exist and I have no intention of going to court or anything like it. If the landlord digs his feet in, I will either have to suffer it out or else I will have to leave the premises and fork out for whatever I will owe while the property lies empty, which I'm assuming will be a long time as with the rating of the house no one would want to live in it.

The gas bill was €340, esb was €146. No spare rooms in house heated or lights etc on. Bare in mind the house is freezing. I sleep in a hoody in bed. I wear a hat around all day when i'm in the house. Having the heating on for 3 or 4 hours makes no difference to the feeling of warmth in the house.

I sympathise with you, rentals in Europe are of a much higher standard in general than here.

In Ireland, we have a fairly rubbish housing stock, that can look nice on the outside. Nobody invested in them in the "good times" instead they built even worse rubbish. I have seen plenty of houses with ratings of F!! You wouldn't even need a fridge in them.

I would typically be paying 340 - 420 on ESB as I have all electric heating, (storage heaters are rubbish, convection heaters even worse),

Just out of matter of interest do you have a thermometer to find out that the temp in the house is?

And if your looking for a new place, look for upstairs apartments, generally warmer as your stealing the heat from downstairs

Hailhail1967

He is involved in the building trade so its possible that he may try to remedy the problems. To be honest I'm surprised he hadn't made efforts to have work done before renting. He lived in this house himself and he had the BER done in July of this year.

I sit here now with my girlfriend, heating on for an hour so far. I have a woolly hat on and we both have blankets over us. She has a hot water bottle. It is 100% warmer outside.

Its making me laugh writing this but its certainly not funny. I will speak to the LL and Agent tomorrow, they seem very decent and good people so I may be worrying about nothing they may be very accommodating. I just chose to email all my problems to them, so as when I meet them I do not forget half the stuff and end up leaving unsatisfied.

Hailhail1967

Spindle wrote: »

Just out of matter of interest do you have a thermometer to find out that the temp in the house is?

And if your looking for a new place, look for upstairs apartments, generally warmer as your stealing the heat from downstairs

I don't have one but i'm going to get hold of one, never even thought of it to be honest.

I wanted/needed a garage, but between heating costs (and no heat) and the price of the house anyway, I could have a nice snug apartment and still rent a bloogy garage or unit and be no worse off money wise.

Spindle

Hailhail1967 wrote: »

I don't have one but i'm going to get hold of one, never even thought of it to be honest.

I wanted/needed a garage, but between heating costs (and no heat) and the price of the house anyway, I could have a nice snug apartment and still rent a bloogy garage or unit and be no worse off money wise.

The temp of a living room/kitchen should be above 16c ideally around 18-21c. Other areas such as halls don't need to be as warm, you actually will sleep better in a bedroom around 16c under a warm duvet.

Of course this is not a legal requirement anywhere.

Hailhail1967

^^^ Ya I must try get hold of one tomorrow just out of curiosity for myself.

Thanks everyone for the replies also.

Ray Palmer

Be realistic. Not many can afford to upgrade rental property. You are talking at least a couple of month rental income for the tenants comfort.
The BER is very faulty system and doesn't tell you much. I certainly can't imagine the report saying anything bad. It is meant to just state condition and recommendations.

Hailhail1967

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Be realistic. Not many can afford to upgrade rental property. You are talking at least a couple of month rental income for the tenants comfort.
The BER is very faulty system and doesn't tell you much. I certainly can't imagine the report saying anything bad. It is meant to just state condition and recommendations.

It states the exact u value of the insulation and of the windows. It points out that improving them would have a "high level" impact on heat retention.

It states the doors are of a poor nature and fitting newer more draught resistant doors would have a "high" impact on heat retention.

That's just two things, it also says the cost to rectify these is "high" & "medium" respectively.


Anyway its essentially not the BER that's the problem, its an aside, I have had the landlord out about the heating and was informed it was the boiler, when that proved not to be the case, I researched it and then found the BER, so I am basing my problems on living in the house, not the BER, the BER just confirms everything I am saying, which is no coincidence.

If LL's have to have a BER they should have to advertise the houses with it attached or at least the actual rating there to be seen. That's for another day though.

Just t be clear once again, I am not blaming my landlord for this, its simply the situation I find myself in.

BostonB

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Be realistic. Not many can afford to upgrade rental property. You are talking at least a couple of month rental income for the tenants comfort.
The BER is very faulty system and doesn't tell you much. I certainly can't imagine the report saying anything bad. It is meant to just state condition and recommendations.

Put the temperature sensor in front of the window/door and keep a log of the temps.Or put some thing that moves in a draught and video that, or show the LL.

Ray Palmer

BostonB wrote: »

Put the temperature sensor in front of the window/door and keep a log of the temps.Or put some thing that moves in a draught and video that, or show the LL.

The point is what is the LL going to do about it? No obligation to do anything and it is costly. I wouldn't do it if I hadn't the money. The tenant isn't going to want to stay while the work is done either.
New windows and doors can easily cost 5 k and then there is redecoration. Do you really see the LL forking out the money?

Hailhail1967

Ray Palmer wrote: »

The point is what is the LL going to do about it? No obligation to do anything and it is costly. I wouldn't do it if I hadn't the money. The tenant isn't going to want to stay while the work is done either.
New windows and doors can easily cost 5 k and then there is redecoration. Do you really see the LL forking out the money?

I don't expect him to either, hence why I have been considering ways to get away from here that won't leave me completely broke.

I have admitted its obviously my own fault but I now have to put my health first.

An aside to your comment, if you were providing a service in general (not a property) if that service was of a poor standard, would you try to improve it? I know I would in my business, otherwise I would not have a business. The landlord of this house AT BEST is looking at having the house empty for a few months every year as he try's to find another unsuspecting tennant. That cost will add up quickly.

The market is full of places to rent now so hopefully people are more vigilant than me and the poor standard ones can remain empty. I know I will be making a sustained effort to make sure people do not fall into the same trap I did. If your a LL and can't afford to have the house up to standard, then stop renting it and go live in it yourself.

To anyone who says tough luck, I accept that for myself. I do believe the BER should should have to be displayed with each house advert, make things allot simpler.

Rasmus

Hailhail1967 wrote: »

I don't expect him to either, hence why I have been considering ways to get away from here that won't leave me completely broke.

I have admitted its obviously my own fault but I now have to put my health first.

An aside to your comment, if you were providing a service in general (not a property) if that service was of a poor standard, would you try to improve it? I know I would in my business, otherwise I would not have a business. The landlord of this house AT BEST is looking at having the house empty for a few months every year as he try's to find another unsuspecting tennant. That cost will add up quickly.

The market is full of places to rent now so hopefully people are more vigilant than me and the poor standard ones can remain empty. I know I will be making a sustained effort to make sure people do not fall into the same trap I did. If your a LL and can't afford to have the house up to standard, then stop renting it and go live in it yourself.

To anyone who says tough luck, I accept that for myself. I do believe the BER should should have to be displayed with each house advert, make things allot simpler.

OP have you talked to threshold yet? They might be able to help you navigate out of this problem without leaving you or the LL with financial losses, or at least minimizing them.

Hailhail1967

Rasmus wrote: »

OP have you talked to threshold yet? They might be able to help you navigate out of this problem without leaving you or the LL with financial losses, or at least minimizing them.

Have a meeting with my landlord this afternoon so going to see how that goes firstly anyway.

BostonB

Ray Palmer wrote: »

The point is what is the LL going to do about it? No obligation to do anything and it is costly. I wouldn't do it if I hadn't the money. The tenant isn't going to want to stay while the work is done either.
New windows and doors can easily cost 5 k and then there is redecoration. Do you really see the LL forking out the money?

I don't get your mindset. They will struggle to rent to place while it has these problems. They'll get dire tenants and lots of hassle. Ultimately they will lose rent on the place. Property needs to maintained. At some point they'll need to bite the bullet on it. Why no do it when they have a tenant in for 12 months to cover the cost.

Windows can be put in a day or so. You can also stagger it, do say the most exposed windows and doors first, then come back and do the other ones later. You can do things like install heavy curtains and make sure there's no gaps around windows, and put in draught excluder strips.

People have lived in houses like these for a hundred years and managed. Giving up at the first hurdle is a very defeatist attitude.

Of course if you are running a business (renting) and find you have not enough money to maintain it, then you need to realise the business is not viable.

Ray Palmer

Guys you have it all messed up in your head. The house was built to modern specs. The request to have it above that standard is basically unreasonable.
Have all the privately owned property upgraded? I doubt it.
Effectively a tenant is asking to have a better standard than if bought personally. That is actually asking for better than the market has.
LL would be mad to let you break the lease.

I personally upgraded all my properties but they are all 30+ years. If I bought a house in the 90s I wouldn't be expecting a huge upgrade bill. Be clear here this is upgrade not maintenance.

The op has mentioned cold near doors and windows not draughts. I would like to hear the actual temperatures in the house.

I know I grew up in a house that was of its time and draughty.

The health concerns seem exaggerated. It is easily possible to warm two rooms in most houses.

Hailhail1967

Maybe if you checked the BER of said 90's house and seen the amount of work it needed you wouldn't be buying it anyway, so your correct in that.

If I am buying or renting a house it is irrelevant, why should someone buying a house have a better standard?

Landlord and the Agency owner called to me today. They were both astonished at the heat in the house. They find it hard to believe I have had heating on at all. The landlord and agent have said that they will get me into another house if that's what I really want.

They are also making efforts to improve the insulation, starting from today. They have assured me that if the gas meter keeps running at its current rate and the house is still as it is today, they will absorb some of the heating bills until it is fully rectified. We are agreeing something concrete on this later in the week.

How dare you say the health concerns are exaggerated.

I'm only glad my own LL has some level of decency.

Rasmus

That's great news OP, glad your LL is a decent sort.

youcancallmeal

I'm a bit worried now, moving into a new place shortly where BER is G
Only positive is that since the BER was done the old wooden style windows have been replaced with modern double glazing. Still though the high ceilings are probably the killer

Ray Palmer

Hailhail1967 wrote: »

If I am buying or renting a house it is irrelevant, why should someone buying a house have a better standard?

.

If you buy a house you tend to improve it so it is better than originally built. That is why they can have better. Their own money spent on improvements.

Be grateful your LL can afford to upgrade the property. Not many can

Rasmus

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Be grateful your LL can afford to upgrade the property. Not many can

A LL who can't afford to upgrade a rental property to a liveable standard shouldn't be renting it out.

Ray Palmer

Rasmus wrote: »

A LL who can't afford to upgrade a rental property to a liveable standard shouldn't be renting it out.

So a house built to building regs in the 90s is not liveable? Also not somebody also pointed out they are going to rent a G rate.

Be absolutely clear the house has never been said to be sub standard just cold.

BostonB

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Guys you have it all messed up in your head. The house was built to modern specs. The request to have it above that standard is basically unreasonable. ...

Your premise is because you've not experienced this, it can't be true. Of course it can.

I've seen/lived in new houses (under 10yrs old) which are so badly built there's a breeze running through them despite double glazing and Alu windows/doors. Gaps in windows frames and doors, inner and outer you could pass a magazine though. Straight through, unbaffled vents which are basically a 4" hole in every room. You can't heat them.

Just because something is new and has new technology/standards in it, doesn't mean it can't be cold. Especially when they don't check half this stuff when its built. Look at Priory Hall.