Knock still not been treated equally

http://www.advertiser.ie/mayo/article/52593/mulherin-to-seek-government-support-for-major-development-work-at-knock-airport

http://edition.pagesuite-professional.co.uk//launch.aspx?pbid=4d7e191c-4960-4c44-a8d2-7c892caae409

Todays front page of the advertiser accessible online has an front page update on this "Mayo deputy calls for government backing to secure future of Knock Airport" This debate came ahead of a meeting of the joint Oireachtas committee on Transport next wednesday which will reieve a briefing from the chairman of Knock Airport.

Hopefully Mulherin will succeed in this approach, Knock should be treated exactly the same as Shannon. Knock airport is a non profit trust setup for the region and is not as Varadkar says a private airport. Shannon is getting 100 million bailout from the taxpayer and then continuing revenue streams from taxpayers properties.

If this approach from Mulherin does not work its time Varadkar and the government were brought to Europe to explain their uncompetitive undermining of Knock airport by continuing to subsidise Shannon, even though their is no comparison on the efficiencies of the airport.

Local and international support raised millions to get Knock off the ground and now its been thrown back in their face by Varadkars decisions to support incompetence.

donkey balls

Ah another numpty/chocalate teapot of a TD wanting to get in some consultants and pay them over the odds for a report that anyone with a knowledge of the transport industry in Ireland could do.
Knock due to it's location cannot compete with the likes of DUB/SNN regarding pax numbers/Air exports etc.

irishbloke77

After all the moaning we did about different airports getting state aid that shouldn't be getting it in this age of cutbacks, better roads, nearby bigger airports, and now we are LOOKING for state aid for a non-state airport? Surely the ongoing saga with shannon is all leading towards shannon being self sufficient and needing no more state aid. It doesn't seem logical to go down this route and then give aid to another airport because of this?

Knock seems to have done very well on its own over the past few years and fair play to them for that.

Maybe shannon was always good to compare to as the figures in shannon were declining and it gave an even better view of knocks operations. MAYBE now shannon will get a chance to fight back for traffic? A the very least they won't be able to blame the DAA. Whether they were right to do so in the first case is another issue.

donkey balls

donkey balls wrote: »

Knock due to it's location cannot compete with the likes of DUB/SNN regarding pax numbers/Air exports etc.

it has been competing quite well with Shannon and it is only seeing itself as a regional airport with european destinations, it does serve north of shannon right up to Donegal(big increase in % coming from Ulster, G8 summitt in Fermanagh should give it a boost) and to the midlands. O'learys statement in Knock two weeks ago acknowledged that he expects SNN and NOC numbers to merge within 3 years, obviously thats not anticipating such governmental bias.

Shannon can now with the governments help and local rents(which should be going to the taxpayer) and massive bailouts do its best to undermine this viable business by subsidising flights.

If Knock was a massive waste of taxpayers money, losing millions, run badly, then i'd say close it down but its the opposite. Well done Leo Varadkar you really show how to reward efficiency and competence. Probably explains his support of shockingly bad run entities like Bus Eireann, CIE etc...:mad:.

For those who call Knock a private airport need to realise that it is a non profit trust setup for the north west region with all but one volunteer director, all profits get put back into the business. Its the best of both worlds for the government if they only realised it, its run like a private business but for the sole benefit of the regions tourism and business sector. If they want to secure jobs in all regions equally then they should support it equally.

donkey balls

How is the likes of SNN subsidizing the cost of flights for airlines? If I remember not to long ago Ryanair said that they were going pull out of SNN due to the high costs.
And as you said yourself Knock wants to operate as a regional airport feeding into airports around Europe, So why would we need an expert group and pay over the odds for a report that should/could be done by the airport mgmt.
Also can you provide any links regarding SNN and the industrial estates that are going merge together along with the free rent.

lotusm

Has the Taxpayer €8 million to spare.... thats how much shannon is losing each year ...this new "Shannon developemt entity" is just another quango... which the Taxpayer will fund... Can Shannon be privatised... either stand on its own two feet or close ....
€100 million bad debts written off and we are all picking up the tab for it

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/1127/shannon-airport.html

Press release issued by Knock airport on this disgraceful decision by Leo Varadkar.

IWAK press release:

• Government takes parochial approach to aviation
• Panic measure to support State owned Shannon airport in decline against increasingly successful airport in Knock
• Consultation futile, as Transport Minister has made his mind up

Dublin 3rd December 2012: To-day the Government launched a full package of measures to ensure the long term future of Shannon Airport, including a write off of €100m of debt, working capital which could total several million euros annually, and a range of incentives to help it grow routes and other aviation business.

Reacting to the decision Liam Scollan, Chairman of Ireland West Airport Knock, said: “The decision to intervene so generously in one airport while ignoring other airports amounted to an unfair, wasteful and possibly illegal use of scarce resources, which would not serve the interests of national aviation. They could trigger the terminal decline of an efficient, growing airport like Knock, which has begun to compete successfully with the State owned Shannon at a fraction of the cost. It was also a financially disastrous policy for hard pressed taxpayers.”

“This decision is connected to Knock’s emergence as a credible international airport. Today it has circa 700, 000 passengers and 28 overseas destinations and with Europe’s largest airlines Ryanair and Lufthansa together with Aer Lingus and Flybe. The Airport currently has 45% of the UK Seat Capacity market in the West of Ireland including Shannon,”

The decision avoids any attempt to benchmark and look for value for money. Knock’s commercial growth meant that in 2012, it managed to fund 92% of its total operating costs with just 8% coming from Government. By contrast, Shannon Airport has losses now reaching €8m per year, even after additional subsidies. The funding of losses at Shannon Airport costs €6.10 per passenger while the comparative figure for Ireland West Airport Knock is just €0.87.

A series of Government statements has indicated that its aviation strategy was focussing on and supporting just one airport. In one such statement it was highlighted that a change in Government policy would be required to stop Knock catching up with Shannon. On 31st March 2012, quoted in the national media, Minister for Transport Leo Varadkar TD said: “If nothing was done for Shannon the airport stood in danger of being passed out by Knock airport in passenger numbers, despite a current gap of over 900,000 passengers… I think if the trends continue as they are it will happen because Shannon’s numbers are already down 20 per cent this year and Knock is still growing. It is only a matter of time without a change in policy.”

This parochial decision by Government to blindly pump cash into one State airport, in the absence of any attention to its impacts on a competing airport like Knock, ignores warnings from the Government’s own aviation advisers at Booz and Co. In their report to Government earlier this year they stated that the Government should not proceed with a support package for Shannon before developing a coherent policy towards airports for the country as a whole.

Such an approach would have meant looking at the efficiencies of an airport such as Knock and allocating investment where it could get the best return for the tax payer. However, by announcing its package for Shannon today, the Government has made a clear nonsense of its second announcement to-day to commence the preparation of a national aviation strategy.

“Over the past 18 months, we have presented Government with a series of innovative proposals which would lead to 1000’s more tourists and 100’s of jobs in both tourism and aviation related industries,” said Joe Gilmore, CEO, Ireland West Airport Knock. “All of these proposals were rejected on the basis that the Government would only engage in this manner with its own State-owned airports. At the same time it redoubled its focus on Shannon.”

The Government has overlooked the understanding entered into over 20 years ago between the State and the people of the West of Ireland. Knock is owned by a not-for-profit Trust which was asked to take on the responsibility of running an airport and additionally to stimulate enterprise and jobs. This understanding was signed into existence as a partnership between State and community of the West of Ireland in 1991.

“In the intervening years Knock grew into in internationally competitive airport employing over 100 people and supporting 900 jobs in the wider region. Throughout 2011/2012 in a time of recession we asked Government to help it make a step change to doubling these benefits for the region,” said Joe Gilmore.

During that period, Ireland West Airport Knock, demonstrated to Government the extent to which it had reached record levels of efficiency and value for money with 66% of staff able to work flexibly across different functions and 99% of flights operating with zero operational delays. It asked the Government to consider rewarding efficiency, value for money as well as the voluntary effort behind the airport.

“We live in a time when people have to pull together, when people are co-operating more to make scarce resources go further. It is this type of model which holds a candle of hope for the country at a time when bailing out lavish spending entities is undermining that spirit,” said Chairman, Liam Scollan.

Unless the Government stops acting in the interests of one airport at the expense of another, then Ireland West with its resolve to serve the 800,000 people of its region, will have no choice but to challenge the Government’s inequitable behaviour towards the airport and the community in the Courts.

(Ends)

For further MEDIA information contact:
Donal Healy, Marketing Manager
Ireland West Airport Knock
T: +353 (0) 94 936 8108; M: + 353 87 4165612
E: donalhealy@irelandwestairport.com

bluecode

With due respect to Knock they don't deserve any taxpayers money. Arguably neither do Shannon. But there are historical reasons for that.

If knock was to get money then so should Galway, Waterford, Kerry etc. That's not going to happen.

But if you're going to give money to an airport in the West. Would it be the large one with multiple runways and a large catchment area with a long standing history or is it going to be the one built on the side of a hill in the middle of nowhere with one runway and little option for expansion?

We know the answer.

I have the greatest respect for the people operating Knock airport but it needs to stand or fall on it's own merits.

Neworder79

To put it another way

Would it be the one whos passengers collapsed by 60%, lost major routes, ran up €100m+ debts and operates at an annual loss of €8m to support a cosseted public sector workforce and inefficient operations

Or

The one that is run efficiently on a low cost model, breaks even with little state support, has grown by 10% annually for several years adding 3 new airlines and 28 routes?

Of course in Ireland there's only one answer.

By the way I don't think it should be an either or situation. It should be a case of sensible balanced aviation policy that put providing quality, sustainable air connectivity into the regions as the policy goal rather than winning votes. There are too many airports but the west coast is a wide geographical area and motorway links aren't in place to make it accessible from Malin to Mizen.

Room for both to grow with NOC serving the West/NW and Midlands, Shannon serving Mid West and South as strategic gateways. That would mean healthy competition, efficiently run businesses and a wider range of services providing the best value to taxpayer and passenger alike.

bluecode

bluecode wrote: »

I have the greatest respect for the people operating Knock airport but it needs to stand or fall on it's own merits.

Thats just it, it is standing on its own two feet. I'd have no problem with no airport getting any state money and let them all stand on their own two feet equally. In May varadkar said that if he didn't do something about shannon then Knock would overtake it in numbers, as if that was a bad thing. He has obviously forgot how business is supposed to work.

Hey Presto, What he has basically set out to do now is make sure Shannon has enough tax payers money(no Debt and several million in rents) to undermine any other airport that is competing for passengers. That is totally noncompetitive business practice and hopefully the legal challenge goes higher than the Irish courts to expose this idiotic decision by Varadkar. Its something you would expect in 1970's Russia, reward incompetence at the expense of a thriving business.

If Shannon was allowed to stand on its own two feet it would of closed years ago. Knock airport serves a region not a specific city so as you say it is in the middle of nowhere but it is right in the center of the whole west, north west region that it serves successfully. It has plenty of physical room to expand but would only expect a max of 1 million passengers so it does not have to be a massive airport. What it does not needed is a state sponsored campaign to undermine its operations.

lotusm

bluecode wrote: »

With due respect to Knock they don't deserve any taxpayers money. Arguably neither do Shannon. But there are historical reasons for that.

If knock was to get money then so should Galway, Waterford, Kerry etc. That's not going to happen.

But if you're going to give money to an airport in the West. Would it be the large one with multiple runways and a large catchment area with a long standing history or is it going to be the one built on the side of a hill in the middle of nowhere with one runway and little option for expansion?

We know the answer.

I have the greatest respect for the people operating Knock airport but it needs to stand or fall on it's own merits.

So are you saying to reward failure... Shannon is losing money hand over fist and it always will so long as another quango is running it... I hope a case is taken in the courts . Competition is healthy and it is the Taxpayer who benefits. the fact that shannon wants Knock out of the picture shows how much it feels threatened by it:rolleyes:

bluecode

So which is it? Do you want Shannon to go under and be replaced by Knock or do you want taxpayer subsidy for Knock?

Neither is a good idea. Knock is not the natural replacement for Shannon airport. Nor will the demise of Shannon bring much benefit to Knock. Kerry would be a more logical regional replacement and other traffic will either migrate to Dublin or other countries.

But Knock should not be comparing itself to Shannon. The proposals in the article are utterly unrealistic and it won't get much of an airing. If it does go to court and overturned Knock won't benefit at all.

Shannon is a bit of a special case and yes it is badly run and there is a definite air of entitlement among people there. But nevertheless they will have to sink or swim from now on.

Also simply there is simply a greater strategic interest for the country in maintaining Shannon than Knock. That's the reality. Another reality is that 40% of the population live in Dublin, over 50% of the population live in Leinster. It has one airport. Connaught has what? 11 or 12% of the population.

It doesn't add up.

bluecode

bluecode wrote: »

Also simply there is simply a greater strategic interest for the country in maintaining Shannon than Knock. That's the reality. Another reality is that 40% of the population live in Dublin, over 50% of the population live in Leinster. It has one airport. Connaught has what? 11 or 12% of the population.

It doesn't add up.

A high percentage of Knocks traffic is not coming from Connacht, Ulster and some of the midlands are big users of the airport. You only have to be there for a few hours to see the the amount of Donegal buses and northern registered cars that deliver passengers for sun holidays to canaries, spain etc.

Its mainly not trying to compete with Shannon for the same market. People from the northwest will not travel half way down the country to go to shannon. They would either go to Knock or Belfast or Dublin there much closer. But if the government continue to support shannon with rental funding, write offs etc then shannon will be able to compete with Knock for customers in south connacht north munster. For a self supporting airport like Knock every passenger counts.

The bigger problem is that there is 3 airports in the southwest of the country and a market for one.

Henry Ford III

Shannon is of strategic importance, and Knock isn't.

Cookiemunster

You say this

Deleted User wrote: »

Its mainly not trying to compete with Shannon for the same market. People from the northwest will not travel half way down the country to go to shannon. They would either go to Knock or Belfast or Dublin there much closer.

And follow it up with this

Deleted User wrote: »

But if the government continue to support shannon with rental funding, write offs etc then shannon will be able to compete with Knock for customers in south connacht north munster. For a self supporting airport like Knock every passenger counts.

So is Knock trying to compete with Shannon or not. I'd say Shannon already competes quite well for North Munster traffic seeing as its in the most northerly county in Munster.
Also if Shannon closed tomorrow North Munster people would travel to Dublin or Cork before Knock as they're closer and much easier to get to.

Cookiemunster

Cookiemunster wrote: »

You say this


And follow it up with this


So is Knock trying to compete with Shannon or not. I'd say Shannon already competes quite well for North Munster traffic seeing as its in the most northerly county in Munster.
Also if Shannon closed tomorrow North Munster people would travel to Dublin or Cork before Knock as they're closer and much easier to get to.

Point been Knock gets very few from Care and probably none below. But every passenger counts and if Shannons subsides of several million a year from state rents, land banks and without debt allows them to drastically reduce prices then it will definitely have an impact on Knock. Being such a small airport it could cause the loss of the service for the whole region without any alternative, which would land squarely at the door of the DOT for undermining it. It would mean alot of very long unnecessary journeys to Dublin and Belfast on very substandard roads. Munster has 3 airports and motorways, we do not have that luxury.

mayotom

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Shannon is of strategic importance, and Knock isn't.

Do explain?

Henry Ford III

mayotom wrote: »

Do explain?

Which bit didn't you understand?

Cookiemunster

Deleted User wrote: »

Point been Knock gets very few from Care and probably none below. But every passenger counts and if Shannons subsides of several million a year from state rents, land banks and without debt allows them to drastically reduce prices then it will definitely have an impact on Knock. Being such a small airport it could cause the loss of the service for the whole region without any alternative, which would land squarely at the door of the DOT for undermining it. It would mean alot of very long unnecessary journeys to Dublin and Belfast on very substandard roads. Munster has 3 airports and motorways, we do not have that luxury.

But if it doesn't get any passenger traffic from Munster then how will Shannon growing remove already non existant traffic?
Shannon closing would mean a lot of very long unnecessary journeys to Dublin and Cork. While Munster has Motorways from Dublin to Cork and Limerick, thats it. Connacht had a motorway between Dublin and Galway. The road from Limerick to Cork is just as substandard as any road in Connacht as are the roads in Kerry and Tipp.

It would also cost quite a lot of jobs in the industries based in the free zone around the airport (Currently standing at around 7500). Are there any industries based around Knock?

Also you say Munster has 3 airports, but it also has a population of 1.25m compared to Connachts 540,000. And if your going to include Farranfore in Munster you have to include Sligo and Donegal and until recently Galway in Connacht.

irishbloke77

Deleted User wrote: »

Munster has 3 airports and motorways, we do not have that luxury.

Munster has 4 airports, SHANNON, CORK, KERRY and WATERFORD. Connaught have a disproportional number of airports compared to munster over 50% less population, only 25% less airports. The number of airports may even be the same if Waterford can't get flights sorted in January.

Lets not try and say that Connaught in some way is a lot worse off than munster. For the size of it, it is well served by airports.

Neworder79

Lets not try and say that Connaught in some way is a lot worse off than munster. For the size of it, it is well served by airports.

Connaught has 1 airport operating commercial flights, Knock. There's a population of 880,000+ within 1.5 hr drive and it's central location on the N5/N17 axis makes it accessible from a wide catchment.

What Knock and Shannon are competing for are routes and airlines aircraft.

I don't think anyone would disagree that Shannon needed assistance to aid it's path to independence and tackle debt, and it's valuable infrastructure should be utilised.

However that should not mean a government interfering to the extent that they distort competition in the market.

jimmycrackcorm

IMO the government are dumping Shannon with a sweetener so that down the line when it is shown to be unprofitable, it will have to rationalize.

lotusm

I dont want to see either Knock or Shannon closed .. All I am saying that one should not be given an unfair advantage over the other ... Knock is already strugling to survive and has to become very competitive in reducing its costs. Why should it not be given the same support as Shannon. Close to 700K passengers will have used it this year, so there is obviously being used and passenger numbers are rising each year.

Stovepipe

Knock looks like a council tip. The airport staff seem to regard it as a dumping ground for old cars and it's ramp area for 737/A320 sized aircraft is too small. It also has no industrial base around it, unlike Shannon. I suggest you compare the often unheralded cargo throughput in Shannon as well as it's extensive aircraft overhaul capacities, none of which exist in Knock.

regards
Stovepipe

mayotom

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Which bit didn't you understand?

OK lets break it down for you. How is Shannon is of strategic importance, where as Knock isn't.

highlydebased

mayotom wrote: »

OK lets break it down for you. How is Shannon is of strategic importance, where as Knock isn't.

Aircraft maintenance facilities
Long runway close to sea level
Industrial estate around airport

mayotom

highlydebased wrote: »

Aircraft maintenance facilities

True but it has no bearing on passenger numbers, it does provide an extra revenue stream for the airport through landing and Storage fees, yet they still manage to consistently loose about €8 annually.

highlydebased wrote: »

Long runway close to sea level

Yes it has a 10,000 ft Runway and therefore ideal for 'Heavy' aircraft for emergency landings etc. But again no bearing on Passenger numbers, profits, etc. Yes this is Strategically important, however this is becoming less and less important due to advancements in aviation technology. At the moment More aircraft divert to Dublin than Shannon due to problems over the Atlantic. Knock is also perfectly capable of handling these aircraft with its 8,000 ft Runway.
Close to Sea level??? how is that Strategically important. It does increase the likelyhood of Sea Fog as much as Low cloud/fog can be a problem, however CAT II at both airports almost eliminates that. As for weather, Only one airport in Ireland remained open during the Snow's of early 2011, that was Knock

highlydebased wrote: »

Industrial estate around airport

Is that the Industrial Estate who's rent's are going to Subsidise the in-efficiencies of a badly run airport.


Now to let you know I would be delighted to see both airports succed and I think they can co-exist. But Shannon has got to become more efficient as does Dublin and Cork, just as it is in most countries most State run businesses are in-efficient, just a bunch of bureaucrats lining their own pockets at the expense of the people. If Shannon was run properly it's passenger numbers would not have declined so Drastically, with time hopefully they will recover, but with millions of extra income coming in every year, there is no incentive to improve and fight for business.

Henry Ford III

How would Knock do without it's controversial €10 per head departure tax/development levy?

highlydebased

mayotom wrote: »

. If Shannon was run properly it's passenger numbers would not have declined so Drastically, with time hopefully they will recover, but with millions of extra income coming in every year, there is no incentive to improve and fight for business.

Given Shannon refused to let Ryanair land for free, that does not seem like bad management to me- it is supposed to be a commerical enterprise. What is bad management was the original deal with Ryanair in the first place.

irishbloke77

mayotom wrote: »

True but it has no bearing on passenger numbers, it does provide an extra revenue stream for the airport through landing and Storage fees, yet they still manage to consistently loose about €8 annually.


Yes it has a 10,000 ft Runway and therefore ideal for 'Heavy' aircraft for emergency landings etc. But again no bearing on Passenger numbers, profits, etc. Yes this is Strategically important, however this is becoming less and less important due to advancements in aviation technology. At the moment More aircraft divert to Dublin than Shannon due to problems over the Atlantic. Knock is also perfectly capable of handling these aircraft with its 8,000 ft Runway.
Close to Sea level??? how is that Strategically important. It does increase the likelyhood of Sea Fog as much as Low cloud/fog can be a problem, however CAT II at both airports almost eliminates that. As for weather, Only one airport in Ireland remained open during the Snow's of early 2011, that was Knock


Is that the Industrial Estate who's rent's are going to Subsidise the in-efficiencies of a badly run airport.


Now to let you know I would be delighted to see both airports succed and I think they can co-exist. But Shannon has got to become more efficient as does Dublin and Cork, just as it is in most countries most State run businesses are in-efficient, just a bunch of bureaucrats lining their own pockets at the expense of the people. If Shannon was run properly it's passenger numbers would not have declined so Drastically, with time hopefully they will recover, but with millions of extra income coming in every year, there is no incentive to improve and fight for business.

Ok, firstly the maintenance argument you make. It does provide revenue but the airport still loses money every year. Without the maintenance, it stands to reason that even more money would be lost, so the maintenance must make a contribution towards running the airport.

As for diversions, you are incorrect, shannon handles more than Dublin. However, this doesn't add much money towards the airport so I wouldn't want to depend on diversions for money to survive. Every little helps and I am sure the money from diversions does help, but certainly nothing you would want to depend on to survive. If knock is able to handle these aircraft, why do no aircraft divert to knock when they are open? The answer is they don't have the facilities to cope with it. As for knock handling the heavy scheduled aircraft, they open mid morning. Most heavies and landed before sunrise in shannon. As for those that arrive during the day; Cargo - knock don't do, Military - Knock don't do.

The point about the industrial estate is that many multinational companies are located there. These companies use shannon and in some cases based there with ONE of the reasons being close proximity to a transport hub. Without a nearby industrial estate, knock can't benefit from this.

If we are going to compare knock with the current state airports and also that they are the only one that stayed open. They are also the only of these airports that charges you more to fly out when you arrive at the airport, this €10 development charge. Can't remember when I last flew out of any airport and paid extra to fly at the airport, that's right, NEVER.

Just for the record, I do agree with you that costs have to be reduced at the state airports to be compete with not just knock but other European airports.

kopbill78

Knock has a €10 charge because the reality that airports under 2m passengers are not profitable without signifcant state intervention. The facts are clear Knock managed to fund 92% of its total operating costs with just 8% coming from Government. By contrast, Shannon Airport has losses now reaching €8m per year, even after additional subsidies. The funding of losses at Shannon Airport costs €6.10 per passenger while the comparative figure for Ireland West Airport Knock is just €0.87. Out the 100m of debt on top of this and tell me then who is running the more efficent operation??

Im all for shannon doing well but lets make it a level playing field for both airports and dont distrort competition with what amounts to a 'bail out' of a literally bankrupt state asset

Henry Ford III

kopbill78 wrote: »

Knock has a €10 charge because the reality that airports under 2m passengers are not profitable without signifcant state intervention. The facts are clear Knock managed to fund 92% of its total operating costs with just 8% coming from Government. By contrast, Shannon Airport has losses now reaching €8m per year, even after additional subsidies. The funding of losses at Shannon Airport costs €6.10 per passenger while the comparative figure for Ireland West Airport Knock is just €0.87. Out the 100m of debt on top of this and tell me then who is running the more efficent operation??

Im all for shannon doing well but lets make it a level playing field for both airports and dont distrort competition with what amounts to a 'bail out' of a literally bankrupt state asset

How much of the 92% you mentioned above is from the proceeds of the €10 departure charge?

The whole "level playing field" idea is a nonsense. Shannon is a huge transatlantic airport of national and indeed international importance. It fully deserves superior terms and funding.

p.s. Where do your figures come from? I'd like to verify them myself.

Henry Ford III

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Shannon is a huge transatlantic airport of national and indeed international importance

:D OMG someone is really living in the past(three transatlantic flights tomorrow), its not 1970 anymore:eek: If management at Shannon are thinking like you it would explain the massive losses.

His figures are from todays IWAK press release
http://www.irelandwestairport.com/utility/news_details.aspx?id=308

Your Welcome!.

TPMP

Deleted User wrote: »

:D OMG someone is really living in the past(three transatlantic flights tomorrow), its not 1970 anymore:eek: If management at Shannon are thinking like you it would explain the massive losses.

His figures are from todays IWAK press release
http://www.irelandwestairport.com/utility/news_details.aspx?id=308

Your Welcome!.

He's right though. It may not be a 'huge' international airport, but in terms of a level playing field, Shannon is in a different class to Knock.

kopbill78

Henry Ford III wrote: »

How much of the 92% you mentioned above is from the proceeds of the €10 departure charge?

The whole "level playing field" idea is a nonsense. Shannon is a huge transatlantic airport of national and indeed international importance. It fully deserves superior terms and funding.

p.s. Where do your figures come from? I'd like to verify them myself.

Readily available in their press release today. I admire Knock, they are trying to be self sustaining and if a €10 fee is what it takes then this is where its at, there are similar fees in place in Blackpool, Newquay, Norwich, Durham tees Valley etc its becoming more and more common for smaller regional airports.

Shannon is a white elephant and no doubt if they lose another €5m next year whose going to pick up the tab - the Govt of course!

TPMP

TPMP wrote: »

Shannon is in a different class to Knock.

You can say that again, there is no comparison on how the two airports are managed. One is complete dead weight to the taxpayers the other isn't.

irishbloke77

Deleted User wrote: »

:D OMG someone is really living in the past(three transatlantic flights tomorrow), its not 1970 anymore:eek: If management at Shannon are thinking like you it would explain the massive losses.

His figures are from todays IWAK press release
http://www.irelandwestairport.com/utility/news_details.aspx?id=308

Your Welcome!.

Compared to knocks transatlantic flights tomorrow which is ........... 0.

Shannon strategically has quite a decent private and corporate jet business also for the Atlantic crossing, compared to knocks ........ 0.

Knocks arrivals page says 6 planes due tomorrow, hmmmmm.

Shannon is a totally different airport to knock. Before today announcement, were knock not able to fight for business jet business? Also, does the open skies agreement for th past few years not mean anyone could have flown commercial jets from knock to the USA. Where are those flights?

Yes, shannon has declined over the years and doesn't have the status it had, as you pointed out, of the 1970s, but it's still got a lot more than Ireland West, Connaught, Knock.

I agree that knock has done well over the past few years, but if we start comparing flight numbers as you did, it doesn't look too good.

TPMP

Deleted User wrote: »

You can say that again, there is no comparison on how the two airports are managed. One is complete dead weight to the taxpayers the other isn't.

Both airports have received government grants.

And besides, you seem to look past the fact that Shannon is under a whole new management structure from December 31st.

irishbloke77

irishbloke77 wrote: »

Compared to knocks transatlantic flights tomorrow which is ........... 0.

Shannon strategically has quite a decent private and corporate jet business also for the Atlantic crossing, compared to knocks ........ 0.

Knocks arrivals page says 6 planes due tomorrow, hmmmmm.

Shannon is a totally different airport to knock. Before today announcement, were knock not able to fight for business jet business? Also, does the open skies agreement for th past few years not mean anyone could have flown commercial jets from knock to the USA. Where are those flights?

Yes, shannon has declined over the years and doesn't have the status it had, as you pointed out, of the 1970s, but it's still got a lot more than Ireland West, Connaught, Knock.

I agree that knock has done well over the past few years, but if we start comparing flight numbers as you did, it doesn't look too good.

You really do not get it or what ? Knock is a regional airport that serves UK and european destinations, its not trying to be anything else. It cuts its costs to suit because it has to, Shannon doesn't have to do that as the taxpayer will keep bailing them out.

Why would Knock want to start doing transatlantic flight its doesn't have the taxpayer funding to do that.

Whats next on your very long list of moans about Knock IrishBloke/TPMP/HFIII ?. I can moan about Shannon as my taxes(and all those in the North west) help pay for it. You don't contribute anything to Knock and obviously don't use it so you really should having nothing to moan about as it costs you nothing. You should be delighted that their is any service there at all that you don't have to pay for.

TPMP

TPMP wrote: »

And besides, you seem to look past the fact that Shannon is under a whole new management structure from December 31st.

Yes and it will receive a yearly 12 million in funding from rents that previously went to the taxpayer. So in reality its an indefinite taxpayer bailout.

http://www.businesspost.ie/#!story/Home/News/ANALYSIS%3A+Shannon+plan+faces+major+hurdles/id/19410615-5218-50bc-dc8e-87bf90581519

Neworder79

if they lose another €5m next year whose going to pick up the tab - the Govt of course

€57 million capital investment needed for ageing infrastructure upgrades in the coming years according to the Booze report, so the better start making money not losing it.

imurdaddy

Deleted User wrote: »

You really do not get it or what ? Knock is a regional airport that serves UK and european destinations, its not trying to be anything else. It cuts its costs to suit because it has to, Shannon doesn't have to do that as the taxpayer will keep bailing them out.

Why would Knock want to start doing transatlantic flight its doesn't have the taxpayer funding to do that.

Whats next on your very long list of moans about Knock IrishBloke/TPMP/HFIII ?. I can moan about Shannon as my taxes(and all those in the North west) help pay for it. You don't contribute anything to Knock and obviously don't use it so you really should having nothing to moan about as it costs you nothing. You should be delighted that their is any service there that you don't have to pay for.

http://www.mayotoday.ie/index.php/local-mayo-news/charlestown-news/item/2051-calleary-secures-funding-for-knock-airport.html

http://www.mayonews.ie/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=14208:more-good-news-for-knock-airport&catid=23:news&Itemid=46

http://www.merrionstreet.ie/index.php/2011/12/minister-varadkar-announces-details-of-exchequer-funding-for-regional-airports/

http://www.flyinginireland.com/news/ireland-west-airport-knock-may-2012.html

Just to link a few,
What about all the money knock has recived from the taxpayer? or do people outside mayo not pay tax? looks like ye are very good at taking!

irishbloke77

Deleted User wrote: »

You really do not get it or what ? Knock is a regional airport that serves UK and european destinations, its not trying to be anything else. It cuts its costs to suit because it has to, Shannon doesn't have to do that as the taxpayer will keep bailing them out.

Why would Knock want to start doing transatlantic flight its doesn't have the taxpayer funding to do that.

Whats next on your very long list of moans about Knock IrishBloke/TPMP/HFIII ?. I can moan about Shannon as my taxes(and all those in the North west) help pay for it. You don't contribute anything to Knock and obviously don't use it so you really should having nothing to moan about as it costs you nothing. You should be delighted that their is any service there that you don't have to pay for.

Yes, I am "Delighted", thanks for pointing that out to me.

Your argument for not wanting transatlantic is also false. Ye had a transatlantic service a few years ago and it failed.

P.S. The Ireland West airport website states that its grown to become Ireland's fourth international airport. They won't be happy with you saying its a regional airport, tut, tut.

irishbloke77

irishbloke77 wrote: »

Yes, I am "Delighted", thanks for pointing that out to me.

Your argument for not wanting transatlantic is also false. Ye had a transatlantic service a few years ago and it failed.

P.S. The Ireland West airport website states that its grown to become Ireland's fourth international airport. They won't be happy with you saying its a regional airport, tut, tut.

Flyglobespan went bust. The market is too small for more transatlantic airports in Ireland. If someone is going on a 6 or 7 hour flight then a three hour drive to Dublin is justified. If i was taking a 40 minute flight to Liverpool i would not be spending 3 hours driving to Dublin to get it. The country is relatively tiny after all. I'd consider all our airports regional except Dublin as all our airports have tiny passenger numbers as well. Time for bed. (im sure we can disagree on something else tomorrow.

Jamie2k9

Knock is also perfectly capable of handling these aircraft with its 8,000 ft Runway.

Thats great to hear but last time I checked airlines divert to airports that are operational and not closed most of the time.

Henry Ford III

mayotom wrote: »

...Knock is also perfectly capable of handling these aircraft with its 8,000 ft Runway.....

The runway in Knock isn't 8000 ft. Stop making stuff up.

yop

Henry Ford III wrote: »

The runway in Knock isn't 8000 ft. Stop making stuff up.

Its 7600ft, so not really making stuff up in fairness, but its not 8000ft.

Henry Ford III

yop wrote: »

Its 7600ft, so not really making stuff up in fairness, but its not 8000ft.

7546ft yop. I'm being pedantic because a lot of half truths are being suggested on this thread.

yop

Henry Ford III wrote: »

7546ft yop. I'm being pedantic because a lot of half truths are being suggested on this thread.

Welcome to boards.ie, it lives on 1/2 truths

mayotom

Transatlantic flights from Ireland at the moment does not really have much room for Growth most airlines are struggling to fill 757's, Most growth potential is from the east as seen with the likes of the links to the UAE

Henry Ford III wrote: »

How would Knock do without it's controversial €10 per head departure tax/development levy?

Simple it would close. But passengers are happy to pay €10 rather than find their way to Dublin or in Some cases Shannon. BTW I would prefer to fly shannon than dublin, but the transport links to Shannon are poor

highlydebased wrote: »

Given Shannon refused to let Ryanair land for free, that does not seem like bad management to me- it is supposed to be a commerical enterprise. What is bad management was the original deal with Ryanair in the first place.

It would never have been free and you know it, that is the basis of all MOL's negotiations

irishbloke77 wrote: »

Ok, firstly the maintenance argument you make. It does provide revenue but the airport still loses money every year. Without the maintenance, it stands to reason that even more money would be lost, so the maintenance must make a contribution towards running the airport.

As for diversions, you are incorrect, shannon handles more than Dublin. However, this doesn't add much money towards the airport so I wouldn't want to depend on diversions for money to survive. Every little helps and I am sure the money from diversions does help, but certainly nothing you would want to depend on to survive. If knock is able to handle these aircraft, why do no aircraft divert to knock when they are open? The answer is they don't have the facilities to cope with it. As for knock handling the heavy scheduled aircraft, they open mid morning. Most heavies and landed before sunrise in shannon. As for those that arrive during the day; Cargo - knock don't do, Military - Knock don't do.

The point about the industrial estate is that many multinational companies are located there. These companies use shannon and in some cases based there with ONE of the reasons being close proximity to a transport hub. Without a nearby industrial estate, knock can't benefit from this.

Just for the record, I do agree with you that costs have to be reduced at the state airports to be compete with not just knock but other European airports.

So on the most part we agree

TPMP wrote: »

Both airports have received government grants.

And besides, you seem to look past the fact that Shannon is under a whole new management structure from December 31st.

Same people with new titles. With no incentive to make the airport profitable it will continue to have several million in Subsidies

Jamie2k9

It would never have been free and you know it, that is the basis of all MOL's negotiations

Until you have the facts you can't make that kind of statement. I know more detail the the average poster about SNN-FR issues however will not discuss on a public fourm.

Transatlantic flights from Ireland at the moment does not really have much room for Growth most airlines are struggling to fill 757's, Most growth potential is from the east as seen with the likes of the links to the UAE

Around 250,000 seats added for 2013 would say other wise.

Simple it would close. But passengers are happy to pay €10 rather than find their way to Dublin or in Some cases Shannon. BTW I would prefer to fly shannon than dublin, but the transport links to Shannon are poor

But would it, remenber its the Noth/West we are talking about all they have to do is go begging to the Goverment for money and they would get it.