Hundreds of Miles of IE Routes to Close in 2013?

OurLadyofKnock

Ballina-Manulla
Limerick-Ballybrophy
Limerick-Waterford

Is this just talk?

Mycroft H

Kite flying I'd say.

Losty Dublin

Considering Ballina yard is stuffed to the rafters with freight and a queue for extra flows I'd doubt if it will be cloed anytime soon.

Losty Dublin

.

corktina

Nenagh branch most likely, Limerick Jnc to Waterford...possibly...Ballina, doubtful. I guess it depends on politics largely.

Service cuts might be more likely than closures perhaps?

I wonder what the economic situation of other lines such as Mallow to Tralee are

munchkin_utd

the strategic review gives an insight into the various lines.
http://www.irishrail.ie/media/2030RailNetworkStrategyReview_21.pdf

What is helping the Mayo lines stick out as a black hole cashwise is their patronage mainly by non paying passengers.
A paying passenger pays 53 euros towards running costs on an open return ticket, or less if they book online.
Passenger on "free" travel pass pays nada towards that particular journey, and more importantly neither does the government as their flat rate deal is the same whether the Ballina line exists or not, or whether theres 1 train or 6 a day.
The more trains CIE run to Mayo then the more money they loose, the more diesel is burned, the more wear and tear on the trains is caused. Its as simple as that.

This may well be kite flying in an effort to reduce the number of services, or in order to introduce a bus shuttle replacement which to be honest would be just as comfortable as the rickety train that they currently use.
Reducing services is the only way they can reduce cash burn on trains that are running with very few (cash generating) passengers.

If for political reasons they must spend cash on staff and fuel and trains and maintenance to run trains that arent taking in any cash, then the only way to reduce chronic cash burn is to just run less services as pensioners and others cant be asked for a cent towards the costs of the service that is being ran almost exclusively for them (which the Mayo line essentially is).

Heck its not a bad solution as then you'll have full trains full of non paying passengers rather than half full trains full of non paying passengers.

Judgement Day

The only way to reduce the 'cash burn' is to remove the many tiers of useless management from within IE and work right down through the company to platform staff who spend their days scratching their arses and smoking. Then motivate the remaining management and staff by paying bonuses for drumming up new business, reducing costs and generally improving the railway offering. Never going to happen.

corktina

Judgement Day wrote: »

The only way to reduce the 'cash burn' is to remove the many tiers of useless management from within IE and work right down through the company to platform staff who spend their days scratching their arses and smoking. Then motivate the remaining management and staff by paying bonuses for drumming up new business, reducing costs and generally improving the railway offering. Never going to happen.

jeez look at the "thanks " on that....never thought those guys would all agree on something!

mikemac1

Limerick - Ballybrophy mentioned I see

IE ran that line into the ground, staff working a handy schedule to suit themselves.
First train from Nenagh to Limerick was around 11am and returned at 3:20pm
Staff with a nice 9-5 schedule.
Train users might use it for a bit of shopping in Limerick as it was useless for anything else!

Locals worked hard, did surveys, published reports and after a lot of lobbying got a commuter service to Limerick.

And then Alan Kelly got his train service to get you to Dublin before 9am
You don't even have to change at Ballybrophy which tbh I didn't even know that was possible.
It's been pushed hard and there is a lot of advertising

All for nought
Locals don't use it and it'll never be a proper succuss.

There is a superb bus service, Bus Éireann and JJ Kavanaghs every hour and that's what people go for

In theory it could work, many thousands leave Tipp every morning for Limerick.
A lot are students but Colbert and Castleconnelll are nowhere near UL or LIT.

There was talk of a station near Annacotty but that was years ago, heard nothing since

The line will get the axe someday, it's sloooooooooow

Though 2 hours 20 minutes from Nenagh to Heuston is good I suppose
Pricy though, 40 euro return and the bus is half that

foggy_lad

mikemac1 wrote: »

Limerick - Ballybrophy mentioned I see

IE ran that line into the ground, staff working a handy schedule to suit themselves.
First train from Nenagh to Limerick was around 11am and returned at 3:20pm
Staff with a nice 9-5 schedule.
Train users might use it for a bit of shopping in Limerick as it was useless for anything else!

Locals worked hard, did surveys, published reports and after a lot of lobbying got a commuter service to Limerick.

And then Alan Kelly got his train service to get you to Dublin before 9am
You don't even have to change at Ballybrophy which tbh I didn't even know that was possible.
It's been pushed hard and there is a lot of advertising

All for nought
Locals don't use it and it'll never be a proper succuss.

There is a superb bus service, Bus Éireann and JJ Kavanaghs every hour and that's what people go for

In theory it could work, many thousands leave Tipp every morning for Limerick.
A lot are students but Colbert and Castleconnelll are nowhere near UL or LIT.

There was talk of a station near Annacotty but that was years ago, heard nothing since

The line will get the axe someday, it's sloooooooooow

Though 2 hours 20 minutes from Nenagh to Heuston is good I suppose
Pricy though, 40 euro return and the bus is half that

The Alan Kellys of this small country of ours don't be worryin' about the cost because someone else is usually paying the bills via expenses!

monument

OurLadyofKnock wrote: »

Ballina-Manulla
Limerick-Ballybrophy
Limerick-Waterford

Is this just talk?

Where did you hear or read this?

That's be a great starting point to find out if it's just talk or not.

Solair

At least the new intercity DMUs should mean that they can run more economical trains with fewer coaches on low demand routes.

The old locomotive hauled fleets weren't very flexible as you'd a heavy locomotive and a heavy generator coach on every train, all sorts of complications to turn the train around etc etc

The new fleet may be hated by locomotive fans, but passengers like modern, new trains that have a decent fit out on board. That helps a lot with marketing a service.
It's not too long ago most of those routes regularly saw clapped out Craven coaches with steam heating and depressing MK2s with bad heating, no food and dismal fluorescent lights.

I think a lot of people remember the recent past through a haze of Cork Dublin orange MK3 tinted glasses! I the majority of the rest of the network was terrible!

LXFlyer

monument wrote: »

Where did you hear or read this?

That's be a great starting point to find out if it's just talk or not.

As it stands it is just talk.

end of the road

Solair wrote: »

At least the new intercity DMUs should mean that they can run more economical trains with fewer coaches on low demand routes.

in theory yes, but the truth is IE want rid of the network

Solair wrote: »

The old locomotive hauled fleets weren't very flexible as you'd a heavy locomotive and a heavy generator coach on every train, all sorts of complications to turn the train around etc etc

i'm sure they could have got driving trailors when they bought those carriges, after all such technology was there.

Solair wrote: »

The new fleet may be hated by locomotive fans, but passengers like modern, new trains that have a decent fit out on board.

and that go quick and at a reasonable price, i don't think its just locomotive fans who hate them though, i don't for the record but i think their wasted doing the speeds they currently have to do.

Solair wrote: »

That helps a lot with marketing a service.

but its not enough.

Solair wrote: »

It's not too long ago most of those routes regularly saw clapped out Craven coaches with steam heating and depressing MK2s with bad heating, no food and dismal fluorescent lights.

and then we got the 27/28/2900s and things improved massively, noisey uncomfortable freezing rickity things (yes some of those commuter railcars are like rollercosters)

Solair wrote: »

I think a lot of people remember the recent past through a haze of Cork Dublin orange MK3 tinted glasses!

because they were proper carriges which should either be operating an hourly cork service instead of the mark 4s or helping an hourly bellfast service, but no, their awaiting the cutting torch because those disfunctional numskulls in IE management got board of them and wanted shiny new ones thinking "ah shur that will sort everything" while not doing enough to improve speeds.

Solair wrote: »

I the majority of the rest of the network was terrible!

agree, the cravens were life expired though (all though many were in better condition then their younger mark 2 cousins) the mark 2s had they been looked after could have lasted a good few more years meaning they could have been in use until the ICRS were fully on stream meaning no commuter railcars on long distance services, but instead they were left to rot over the years probably because IE hoped to have had much of the network shut and lifted years ago so therefore wouldn't have needed them as they hoped they would be unfit for service by the time the closures came.

monument

If the new IC railcars were not ordered I bet there'd be a lot more talk around about now of scraping railways.

coylemj

Bear in mind that Mayo (a five-seater) elected four FG TDs in the 2011 general election, including the Taoiseach and a junior minister (Michael Ring) so I'd say the rail services in that part of the country are safe for the moment.

end of the road

monument wrote: »

If the new IC railcars were not ordered I bet there'd be a lot more talk around about now of scraping railways.

possibly, all though ICRS alone won't be the saviour of railways in this country, major speed improvements, investment in infrastructure, management who are interested and who will do whatever it takes to attract customers (none of above will happen) and reasonable fairs will.

dowlingm

coylemj wrote: »

Bear in mind that Mayo (a five-seater) elected four FG TDs in the 2011 general election, including the Taoiseach and a junior minister (Michael Ring) so I'd say the rail services in that part of the country are safe for the moment.

My understanding was Heuston-Westport was actually doing well, with 3 car trains being converted to 6 at times.

It's just problematic that the Ballina shuttle is a costly arrangement being a remote based 2800 on a relatively short diagram which has to be swapped down to Limerick weekly.

One wonders what the relative cost benefit of making it 22K would be, since that could be swapped to LTC via Heuston using service diagrams and would mean Westport-Ballina crews would only need to be current on one DMU type.

I'd also love to know how much it would cost to create a passenger access at Manulla Junction. The google view makes me think a hole in the hedge on the west side and a bit of tarmac would get it done. IIt would shorten Westport/Castlebar and Ballina bustitutions currently running to/from Claremorris, gain a (very small) extra patronage from places like Balla and wouldn't cost a bean in extra stops or time lost since the stops are happening anyway, which is more than can be said for the stops made at places like Craughwell.

Jamie2k9

I only learned recently that there is a regular shuttle between Ballina-M Junction that dosn't connect with the train.

I ask is there demand for Foxford-Ballina, if so why not run Ballina-Foxford and stop wasting money running to M Junction or is it just about kepping the driver productive during the day when no Dublin connections operate.

Our man in Havana

A shuttle that does not connect with the train at MJ is crazy. Seeing as MJ has no public access what would be the point?

LXFlyer

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

I only learned recently that there is a regular shuttle between Ballina-M Junction that dosn't connect with the train.

I ask is there demand for Foxford-Ballina, if so why not run Ballina-Foxford and stop wasting money running to M Junction or is it just about kepping the driver productive during the day when no Dublin connections operate.

More nonsense.

Every train between Manulla and Ballina connects into or out of a train.

Either a train to/from Dublin or a train to/from Westport. You need to look at both directions' timetables to see this.

Jamie2k9

Its still an empty train between MJ-Ballina for every connection, so is there many passengers between Foxford-Ballina to justify this running (not including pass holders) if not the train should wait at then Junction.

Losty Dublin

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

I only learned recently that there is a regular shuttle between Ballina-M Junction that dosn't connect with the train.

I ask is there demand for Foxford-Ballina, if so why not run Ballina-Foxford and stop wasting money running to M Junction or is it just about kepping the driver productive during the day when no Dublin connections operate.

That's not what happens although it appears to be just the case at first glance.

The connecting DMU works in service to and from Ballina rather than working back to Ballina empty as was once the case. This opens up travel between Westport/Castlebar and Foxford/Ballina. On the current timetable seven out of eight Dublin-Westport trains have a connection with the branch train; it appears in the timetable in both directions so it gives the impression of ghost trains. I gather that there isn't much demand but it's costing nothing to offer it as the DMU is running anyway.

LXFlyer

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Its still an empty train between MJ-Ballina for every connection, so is there many passengers between Foxford-Ballina to justify this running (not including pass holders) if not the train should wait at then Junction.

But the train does connect at Manulla every single time with another train.

Jamie2k9

But the train does connect at Manulla every single time with another train.

It does not connect with a Dublin train all the time. Traffic between Westport-Ballina is almost zero.

Take the 07.37 departure from MJ, can you see people travling from Westport-Ballina via MJ.

Vic_08

dowlingm wrote: »

My understanding was Heuston-Westport was actually doing well, with 3 car trains being converted to 6 at times.

It's just problematic that the Ballina shuttle is a costly arrangement being a remote based 2800 on a relatively short diagram which has to be swapped down to Limerick weekly.

One wonders what the relative cost benefit of making it 22K would be, since that could be swapped to LTC via Heuston using service diagrams and would mean Westport-Ballina crews would only need to be current on one DMU type.

I'd also love to know how much it would cost to create a passenger access at Manulla Junction. The google view makes me think a hole in the hedge on the west side and a bit of tarmac would get it done. IIt would shorten Westport/Castlebar and Ballina bustitutions currently running to/from Claremorris, gain a (very small) extra patronage from places like Balla and wouldn't cost a bean in extra stops or time lost since the stops are happening anyway, which is more than can be said for the stops made at places like Craughwell.

Perhaps the shuttle should be scrapped and all services be operated with 3 cars through to westport and 3 for ballina splitting/combining at claremorris.

ArmaniJeanss

Always wondered do any people who live in the locality of Manulla Junction hop the fence or a wall to get on the train?

Our man in Havana

It has been used unofficially by locals as a station for years.

Judgement Day

The situation of Manulla being landlocked would never have happened if CIE hadn't been in such a hurry to flog off the land - I bet they got a fortune for it. :rolleyes: