base building really slow

moneymad

MHR 195-200
Weekly mileage 22mpw

tue 3 miles
wed 4 miles
thur 4 miles
sat 8 miles
sun 3 miles

I have been running for the past 12 weeks and i have started to wear a hrm and have noticed all my mileage is being done at around 170-175bpm. I know this is way too high as I sometimes feel totally shagged after my runs.

I found out from reading that I should be doing my base building at 145-150bpm . But in order to do this i have to slow down to just over 11mm. I am doing all my runs now at this pace and have changed my runs to this.

How soon do i start seeing noticeable improvements so i can up my pace a bit as 11 minute miles are horrible.

rom

Person here has a lower max than you so ignore the HR info but you can see the progression clearly after 6 weeks or so.

hot to trot

moneymad wrote: »

MHR 195-200
Weekly mileage 22mpw

tue 3 miles
wed 4 miles
thur 4 miles
sat 8 miles
sun 3 miles

I have been running for the past 12 weeks and i have started to wear a hrm and have noticed all my mileage is being done at around 170-175bpm. I know this is way too high as I sometimes feel totally shagged after my runs.

I found out from reading that I should be doing my base building at 145-150bpm . But in order to do this i have to slow down to just over 11mm. I am doing all my runs now at this pace and have changed my runs to this.

How soon do i start seeing noticeable improvements so i can up my pace a bit as 11 minute miles are horrible.

Well done on being so patient and running injury free as a result.:)
I think for sanity you could still do one of your runs at the higher heart rate , while being more conservative on the others.

I think consistency is one of the biggest factors. I try not take more than a one day break between runs. That's when I notice that my heart rate improvements start to slide backwards again . When I run days in a row , I seem to get max benefit, and then usually have a day off after 3 in a row. Your schedule seems to be perfect, so just hang in there and when it starts to happen for you , you will really notice the difference.
Everyone will find what suits them , but I use a HRM also and this is just what I noticed myself.
Keep it up . You wont regret it .

hot to trot

rom wrote: »

Person here has a lower max than you so ignore the HR info but you can see the progression clearly after 6 weeks or so.

Interesting chart, however, this person has the ability to do a 7:24 and 6:48 minute mile at approx 6 weeks and 11 weeks ( roughly) so these starting runs are well within their comfort easy zone not getting near any kind of pace , which they obviously have the capacity for .

I do think that its different adapting heart fitness from scratch as there is a much longer lead in to noticing improvement than with an already established runner who is able to run like lightning once in a while to really eat into the heart rate figures. If the legs are fit, the cardiac effort will be less whereas with beginner legs you are trying to make improvements in efficiency in both legs and heart.

rom

hot to trot wrote: »

Interesting chart, however, this person has the ability to do a 7:24 and 6:48 minute mile at approx 6 weeks and 11 weeks ( roughly) so these starting runs are well within their comfort easy zone not getting near any kind of pace , which they obviously have the capacity for .

I do think that its different adapting heart fitness from scratch as there is a much longer lead in to noticing improvement than with an already established runner who is able to run like lightning once in a while to really eat into the heart rate figures. If the legs are fit, the cardiac effort will be less whereas with beginner legs you are trying to make improvements in efficiency in both legs and heart.

Person had done a 35.05 4 mile race a week before starting this which would be 8:46 min/mile so there was a clear improvement. I would consider him starting from scratch. He had no running only two 5K's in mid 2011 that were 28 mins each approx and the 4 mile race. He is about 10.5 stone, mid 30's but smokes and does not participate in any other sports/activities. Everyone is different but I found myself personally that after 6 weeks it really started to kick in also.

YFlyer

rom wrote: »

Person here has a lower max than you so ignore the HR info but you can see the progression clearly after 6 weeks or so.

These are his runs on double days?

YFlyer

hot to trot wrote: »

Interesting chart, however, this person has the ability to do a 7:24 and 6:48 minute mile at approx 6 weeks and 11 weeks ( roughly) so these starting runs are well within their comfort easy zone not getting near any kind of pace , which they obviously have the capacity for .

I do think that its different adapting heart fitness from scratch as there is a much longer lead in to noticing improvement than with an already established runner who is able to run like lightning once in a while to really eat into the heart rate figures. If the legs are fit, the cardiac effort will be less whereas with beginner legs you are trying to make improvements in efficiency in both legs and heart.

Yes his 5 mile and 5 Km race times are impressive for the training paces he logged if that is the only training he is doing.

I'm guessing those training days are either easy runs on double days or he is a triathlete.

Edit: Ok I notice rom reply now. That's great improvement without any sessions and training comfortably 4 days a week.

rom

No just once a day. Any doubles would be warmup and cooldowns only around a race. He ain't a triathlete. He did do anything else in the way of sport but not carrying extra weight was a big advantage. He has no history of sport before the first of Jan worth mentioning.

moneymad

That's exactly the type of progress i was hoping to hear about.After just 6 weeks there's a nice drop in the HR. That's after calming me down now.

I too feel when i run 3 days in a row i get more out of it and you'd feel way looser, especially around the hips. Those 12 weeks weren't injury free.:P

Ceepo

moneymad wrote: »

MHR 195-200
Weekly mileage 22mpw

tue 3 miles
wed 4 miles
thur 4 miles
sat 8 miles
sun 3 miles

I have been running for the past 12 weeks and i have started to wear a hrm and have noticed all my mileage is being done at around 170-175bpm. I know this is way too high as I sometimes feel totally shagged after my runs.

I found out from reading that I should be doing my base building at 145-150bpm . But in order to do this i have to slow down to just over 11mm. I am doing all my runs now at this pace and have changed my runs to this.

How soon do i start seeing noticeable improvements so i can up my pace a bit as 11 minute miles are horrible.

Hi There

First thing if you are working of heart rate dont start worrying about times,
Some days i would feel the same, it would feel like it was to easy, but i would still stick to the zone, if it was a recovery run i would keep it in my recovery zone.

Do you know your rest heart rate ?

you say your max is 195/200, it cant be the 2 of them, when you find your max you can work out your % for training.

How did you work out your MHR

You then take your RHR from your MHR, eg, 200 mhr - 50 rhr = 150 this is then your base to work out your % zone, than add back on your RHR
EG, 60% of 150 + rhr
70% of 150 + rhr etc etc.

The other thing about hrm is it is hard to keep to set zone's as there are a lot of factors that can change your heart rate, weather, hilly course, sleep etc etc, just aim for an avg for your run.

Looking at your training run's you could still afford to keep one of the at the higher hr. It will not do you any harm.

The problem with the way you are running at that pace (175 hr) is that you are not giving yourself a chance to recovery as you are running to hard on all your runs. You are not alone there as a lot of people do the same.

Hope this of some help

rom

moneymad wrote: »

That's exactly the type of progress i was hoping to hear about.After just 6 weeks there's a nice drop in the HR. That's after calming me down now.

I too feel when i run 3 days in a row i get more out of it and you'd feel way looser, especially around the hips. Those 12 weeks weren't injury free.:P

You may benefit from one of these. I find it great. I use it prob 3 times a week http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJLxruO3su0

moneymad

Ceepo wrote: »

Hi There

First thing if you are working of heart rate dont start worrying about times,
Some days i would feel the same, it would feel like it was to easy, but i would still stick to the zone, if it was a recovery run i would keep it in my recovery zone.

Do you know your rest heart rate ?

you say your max is 195/200, it cant be the 2 of them, when you find your max you can work out your % for training.

How did you work out your MHR

You then take your RHR from your MHR, eg, 200 mhr - 50 rhr = 150 this is then your base to work out your % zone, than add back on your RHR
EG, 60% of 150 + rhr
70% of 150 + rhr etc etc.

The other thing about hrm is it is hard to keep to set zone's as there are a lot of factors that can change your heart rate, weather, hilly course, sleep etc etc, just aim for an avg for your run.

Looking at your training run's you could still afford to keep one of the at the higher hr. It will not do you any harm.

The problem with the way you are running at that pace (175 hr) is that you are not giving yourself a chance to recovery as you are running to hard on all your runs. You are not alone there as a lot of people do the same.

Hope this of some help

I was just out for a run and ran it fairly fast i got a MR reading of 195 but i knew there was more in me as i wasn't totally out of breath. So maybe i am training in the wrong zone? If i train in the 140-150 zone my times are over 11minutes a mile. Surely that's way too slow when i was running my 8 mile long runs at 9.20mm. After the long run i was shagged though.

rom

moneymad wrote: »

I was just out for a run and ran it fairly fast i got a MR reading of 195 but i knew there was more in me as i wasn't totally out of breath. So maybe i am training in the wrong zone? If i train in the 140-150 zone my times are over 11minutes a mile. Surely that's way too slow when i was running my 8 mile long runs at 9.20mm. After the long run i was shagged though.

You probably need to find your true max HR reading first. Have you worn the HRM in a race ?

moneymad

rom wrote: »

You probably need to find your true max HR reading first. Have you worn the HRM in a race ?

No I was never in a race before. But according to this I am in the right zone.

I read this
http://www.cypressop.com/misc/Hadd%20Threads.htm

If your HRmax is 193 OR HIGHER, then the following applies:
HRmax: 193+ (even if over 200)
Best possible HRmarathon: 175-177 HRav (note, this is the average taken from mile 5 to mile 25, not the peak. Your HR might peak to 181 in the final miles as you throw everything onto the fire).
Suggested training HR's: Easy every day running: 145 HR or lower (If you begin really unused to this form of training, initially you might start at 150, but as soon as the pace at this HR improves, it is recommended that you reduce your easy running HR to 145 or lower). This can often feel very slow to begin with, but should improve within 3-6 weeks and continue to improve for months. You may do as much running as you wish at this HR/intensity (always being careful to avoid overuse injury).
Initial LTHR (initial lactate threshold heart rate): As with Joe in the example, begin at 155-160 and do not let the HR rise on the run. Build up the distance you can run for, over time, to 10 miles. At first, you may have to slow down within the run to maintain HR, but over the weeks and months, you should note that the running speed begins to remain more stable and you do not have to slow down (so much) to stop your HR rising. In time, the running pace at this HR (and all other HR’s above it) will also improve. Only move this HR up when your running pace vs HR is rock steady and you (easily) are able to run 10 miles at this HR without loss of pace or rise in HR. At that point, only move the HR up by 5bpm and begin again. The slower you build up the first time, the better your pace at HRmarathon will be. Remain at each HR as long as you are seeing improvement on the 2400m test and definitely until your pace vs HR is stable. You are trying to reach a state where your predicted/expected marathon pace and your 170 HR pretty much coincide in the 2400m test. And that this pace per mile can be maintained in training for 10-15 miles at 170-175 HR without rising effort or rising HR.

rom

moneymad wrote: »

No I was never in a race before. But according to this I am in the right zone.

I read this
http://www.cypressop.com/misc/Hadd%20Threads.htm

If your HRmax is 193 OR HIGHER, then the following applies:
HRmax: 193+ (even if over 200)
Best possible HRmarathon: 175-177 HRav (note, this is the average taken from mile 5 to mile 25, not the peak. Your HR might peak to 181 in the final miles as you throw everything onto the fire).
Suggested training HR's: Easy every day running: 145 HR or lower (If you begin really unused to this form of training, initially you might start at 150, but as soon as the pace at this HR improves, it is recommended that you reduce your easy running HR to 145 or lower). This can often feel very slow to begin with, but should improve within 3-6 weeks and continue to improve for months. You may do as much running as you wish at this HR/intensity (always being careful to avoid overuse injury).
Initial LTHR (initial lactate threshold heart rate): As with Joe in the example, begin at 155-160 and do not let the HR rise on the run. Build up the distance you can run for, over time, to 10 miles. At first, you may have to slow down within the run to maintain HR, but over the weeks and months, you should note that the running speed begins to remain more stable and you do not have to slow down (so much) to stop your HR rising. In time, the running pace at this HR (and all other HR’s above it) will also improve. Only move this HR up when your running pace vs HR is rock steady and you (easily) are able to run 10 miles at this HR without loss of pace or rise in HR. At that point, only move the HR up by 5bpm and begin again. The slower you build up the first time, the better your pace at HRmarathon will be. Remain at each HR as long as you are seeing improvement on the 2400m test and definitely until your pace vs HR is stable. You are trying to reach a state where your predicted/expected marathon pace and your 170 HR pretty much coincide in the 2400m test. And that this pace per mile can be maintained in training for 10-15 miles at 170-175 HR without rising effort or rising HR.

Didn't know that. Friend of mine is 37 with a 208 max HR (sent that on to him). A race or two is well worth it as you can see really how hard you can push yourself also great to work toward short term goals and see improvements.

moneymad

rom wrote: »

Didn't know that. Friend of mine is 37 with a 208 max HR (sent that on to him). A race or two is well worth it as you can see really how hard you can push yourself also great to work toward short term goals and see improvements.

It's a book worth of knowledge in a single page. Ya I might try a few soon.

rom

moneymad wrote: »

It's a book worth of knowledge in a single page. Ya I might try a few soon.

Its crazy alright.

Ceepo

Hi,

To get your "true " max do a warm up then run 2 or 3 x 400m with say 90 sec to 2min rec then run 1 more 400, take out the first 100,125 very hard, try maintain this to 250 and then give the last 150 everything you have got,
Its very rare that will hit max HR in a race as you usually get to fatigued to push hard enough to hit Max HR,

What type of HRM have you?, this can make a difference as some are not all that accurate.

Your Zone of 140 to 150 is about right give or take a few beats,
As i said before if you are running of HR dont worry about times, as the link you put up says, times will get faster at the same HR over a period of time,
Be Patient and keep the training consistent and have faith in the training, the main thing is to keep getting out and doing it, Will also but up your aerobic base by adding a few miles to some of your runs, again over a period of time.

Running your long run (8m) at to fast a pace (or to high HR) is probably having an a effect on your easier short runs as you may not be recovered enough, try keep your long runs in the right zones, and then you could afford to run 1 or 2 of your shorter runs at a higher HR, You shouldnt finished your long run "shagged",
As for running a to "slow" dont worry about it, it should be all about the end result

moneymad

Ceepo wrote: »

Hi,

To get your "true " max do a warm up then run 2 or 3 x 400m with say 90 sec to 2min rec then run 1 more 400, take out the first 100,125 very hard, try maintain this to 250 and then give the last 150 everything you have got,
Its very rare that will hit max HR in a race as you usually get to fatigued to push hard enough to hit Max HR,

What type of HRM have you?, this can make a difference as some are not all that accurate.

Your Zone of 140 to 150 is about right give or take a few beats,
As i said before if you are running of HR dont worry about times, as the link you put up says, times will get faster at the same HR over a period of time,
Be Patient and keep the training consistent and have faith in the training, the main thing is to keep getting out and doing it, Will also but up your aerobic base by adding a few miles to some of your runs, again over a period of time.

Running your long run (8m) at to fast a pace (or to high HR) is probably having an a effect on your easier short runs as you may not be recovered enough, try keep your long runs in the right zones, and then you could afford to run 1 or 2 of your shorter runs at a higher HR, You shouldnt finished your long run "shagged",
As for running a to "slow" dont worry about it, it should be all about the end result

I've a fair idea on how to test the max hr. The monitor i have is one from lidl or aldi. Id say it is accurate enough but wouldn't mind trying a more expensive one just to be sure.
Doing my shorter runs fast and my long run at the 140-150 zone seems to make more sense as i'd be more inclined to enjoy running more that way. I can't keep doing slow miles every day i'd go mad.
I'll try that out for awhile and see how it goes.

rom

You are probably best doing two fast runs a week where you run properly fast, one long run and the rest at easy pace and a day at least between each fast day and the long run like

Tues fast

Thurs fast

Sat/Sun LSR When your running fast you want to really run fast and you won't if you are doing it every day.You basically want to be fresh for the two session and the long run.

moneymad

rom wrote: »

You are probably best doing two fast runs a week where you run properly fast, one long run and the rest at easy pace and a day at least between each fast day and the long run like

Tues fast

Thurs fast

Sat/Sun LSR When your running fast you want to really run fast and you won't if you are doing it every day.You basically want to be fresh for the two session and the long run.

Sounds good. I will experiment and see what works.Nothing worse doing a fast run at 3/4 effort because you went too hard previously.