Double charging Dentist??

cathy01

I took my local dentist up on a offer, for a clean and cheak up for €25, which is half price.
I rang to make a appointment and told them I wont be useing PRSI, as it would cost me €30 but I will use the Facebok offer.
I went down and was handed a PRSI, form.I thought it was just a form incase I had any other threatment,like a filling and you get it cheaper with PRSI.
Anyway,no fillings needed , came out paid , asked for a receipt and was told NO.:eek:
I was told that it would cost more if I wanted a receipt.I left it , went home and remembered the PRSI form.So I rang and asked about it.They just said , we wont process it.Its most likely shreadded.
Should I do any more then that , or just leave it.
I have a feeling, only that I asked, it would have been sent on.
Maybe some dentist could explain how it works??

Thanks,Cathy

pwurple

I don't get it, how were you double charged?

cathy01

Well, I paid, but then he COULD have processed the PRSI form, so he would have been paid twice , only I stopped it.Am I wrong in thinking this?Thanks,Cathy

Galadriel

cathy01 wrote: »

Well, I paid, but then he COULD have processed the PRSI form, so he would have been paid twice , only I stopped it.Am I wrong in thinking this?Thanks,Cathy

As far as I'm aware it doesn't cover getting your teeth cleaned only a check.

davo10

Galadriel wrote: »

As far as I'm aware it doesn't cover getting your teeth cleaned only a check.

This is correct, PRSI does not cover cleanings nor fillings, you got a check up and clean for €25, less than in the North and probably less even than in Eastern Europe.

mark renton

davo10 wrote: »

This is correct, PRSI does not cover cleanings nor fillings, you got a check up and clean for €25, less than in the North and probably less even than in Eastern Europe.

Not as cheap as a toothbrush and toothpaste though...

keithclancy

cathy01 wrote: »

Anyway,no fillings needed , came out paid , asked for a receipt and was told NO.:eek:
I was told that it would cost more if I wanted a receipt.I left it , went home and remembered the PRSI form.So I rang and asked about it.They just said , we wont process it.Its most likely shreadded

Most likely they'll keep it off the books to avoid vat.

I would guess that if you wanted to pay by card you would have been told the same.

the_syco

Demand a receipt, and report them if they refuse to give you one. If they're skimping on tax, I'd wonder what else they're skimping on?

davo10

keithclancy wrote: »

Most likely they'll keep it off the books to avoid vat.

I would guess that if you wanted to pay by card you would have been told the same.

Dentists cannot vat register so it makes no difference from the perspective of vat payment.

davo10

the_syco wrote: »

Demand a receipt, and report them if they refuse to give you one. If they're skimping on tax, I'd wonder what else they're skimping on?

Giving a receipt makes absolutely no difference whatsoever to whether the income is declared or not, I do not know why a receipt was not given and why it would cost more if one was given, OP ring the clinic and ask for clarification as that does not make sense.

What else do you suspect them of skimping on? I'm pretty sure the €25 just about covers the costs of providing the treatment, after tax that's €15.

Sign of the times, even when a consumer gets a fantastic deal, there's still room for suspicion and complaint.

Zizigirl

Hi Cathy01

I had the same problem with my dentist last year. Had bought an offer from a deal site but when arrived at dentist they asked me to fill out PRSI form. The receptionist acted like I was stupid when I said but I've paid for my app why would you be claiming off my PRSI? She again asked me to fill out form. I politely told them I would be reporting them.

At the end of the day the countries finances are in enough of a mess and I know many of the issues would cost more than they'd save to fix but this one boils my blood. The dentists are stealing from the public purse whether they care to admit it or not!

keithclancy

davo10 wrote: »

Giving a receipt makes absolutely no difference whatsoever to whether the income is declared or not, I do not know why a receipt was not given and why it would cost more if one was given, OP ring the clinic and ask for clarification as that does not make sense.

What else do you suspect them of skimping on? I'm pretty sure the €25 just about covers the costs of providing the treatment, after tax that's €15.

Sign of the times, even when a consumer gets a fantastic deal, there's still room for suspicion and complaint.

Why does it cost more for a receipt then ?

Oryx

davo10 wrote: »

Dentists cannot vat register so it makes no difference from the perspective of vat payment.

How does that work? Arent their products and services vatable?

Wils110

The biggest receipt scam is the<SNIP> you go to get your car they only take cash my charge was €550 you ask for a receipt and the lady says it will cost you another€90 lol...heard a rumour an ex cop owns it

uck51js9zml2yt

Wils110 wrote: »

The biggest receipt scam is the <SNIP> you go to get your car they only take cash my charge was €550 you ask for a receipt and the lady says it will cost you another€90 lol...heard a rumour an ex cop owns it

If this is true, why have you not reported them to revenue?

Wils110

Did they said they'd investigate

davo10

keithclancy wrote: »

Why does it cost more for a receipt then ?

That's the bit I don't understand about OP, giving a receipt or not makes not one bit of difference, if the provider is not going to declare income and the consumer cannot claim tax relief for the service, it does not matter if a receipt is issued or not. Crowns/ bridgework etc is tax deductable so revenue would have a record from the consumer for these payments. OP may be mistaken about this point.

davo10

Oryx wrote: »

How does that work? Arent their products and services vatable?

Health services are different from other types of services such as car repair, the products eg filings are inserted in the body.

If dental clinics could form companies and vat register and you had a shoddy clinician, he/she could just fold the company if sued and start again the next day leaving the patient with no way of obtaining recompense. This fact also prevents dentists from paying the lower rate of corporate tax as most people think they do,, they pay the higher rate of income tax.

Oryx

davo10 wrote: »

Health services are different from other types of services such as car repair, the products eg filings are inserted in the body.

If dental clinics could form companies and vat register and you had a shoddy clinician, he/she could just fold the company if sued and start again the next day leaving the patient with no way of obtaining recompense. This fact also prevents dentists from paying the lower rate of corporate tax as most people think they do,, they pay the higher rate of income tax.

You dont have to be a limited company to charge vat, though. Corporate tax has nothing to do with vat.

davo10

Oryx wrote: »

You dont have to be a limited company to charge vat, though. Corporate tax has nothing to do with vat.

Correct but dentists are prohibited from vat registering by Revenue, unfortunately all materials bought for the business of dentistry have to be paid for vat inclusive.

Glenbhoy

davo10 wrote: »

Health services are different from other types of services such as car repair, the products eg filings are inserted in the body.

If dental clinics could form companies and vat register and you had a shoddy clinician, he/she could just fold the company if sued and start again the next day leaving the patient with no way of obtaining recompense. This fact also prevents dentists from paying the lower rate of corporate tax as most people think they do,, they pay the higher rate of income tax.

Dentists can't reclaim vat on inputs, as a result they don't have to charge VAT on their services. That helps keep the cost of such services down:D:D
As another poster points out, being incorporated or not makes zero difference to an entity's vat status. By the way, there would be very little advantage for a dentist if he were to incorporate, the lower corp tax really has very little effect on small companies, after all the directors of small companies have to pay exactly the same tax as anyone else on money they extract from the company.
(There is a large chain of dental practices in existence which I have always presumed is incorporated and that the IDC have just turned a blind eye to it??).

With regards to the non-issuance of a receipt, I'm pretty sure that's illegal. And I'd disagree with Dave, no issuing a receipt is a surefire indicator of tax evasion, the reason being that with no paper record the whole transaction can be erased, of course, there may be some record of it on the practice software systems, but the revenue are unlikely to start looking at that (at least not for a few years, but.....).

Other than that, the OP should have no complaints.

Oryx

davo10 wrote: »

Correct but dentists are prohibited from vat registering by Revenue, unfortunately all materials bought for the business of dentistry have to be paid for vat inclusive.

Arent most exempt?

davo10

Oryx wrote: »

Arent most exempt?

Unfortunately not, all are charged plus vat, none are exempt.

Glenbhoy though a receipt is a record of sale, I'm just not sure why the clinic refused to give it as OP claims, what difference would it make whether it was given or not, the OPs receipt taken in isolation or even as a group of receipts would not come to the attention of revenue, in fact it is far more likely to be an issue by not giving it, as shown on this thread. If this is a policy in the clinic, it is a foolish one.

The chain you refer to is not owned by a dentist but rather a venture capitalist, the dentists working there are technically self employed. I'm not sure how this works if a patient takes a claim for negligence, whether the dentist or the corporate is liable. I would imagine there would be legal loops to jump through.

Oryx

davo10 wrote: »

Unfortunately not, all are charged plus vat, none are exempt.

Though a receipt is a record of sale, I'm just not sure why the clinic refused to give it as OP claims, what difference would it make whether it was given or not, the OPs receipt taken in isolation or even as a group of receipts would not come to the attention of revenue, in fact it is far more likely to be an issue by not giving it, as shown on this thread. If this is a policy in the clinic, it is a foolish one.

Because Im a bit of a nerd, and a curious one at that, I checked, and dentures, orothodontic supplies and a host of other dental bits and bobs are zero or exempt. So Im confused.

The motor tax office wouldnt give me a reciept today for a fee I paid them for my drivers licence, so I doubt its an offence to refuse to give one. Bad practice for a private company though.

davo10

Oryx wrote: »

Because Im a bit of a nerd, and a curious one at that, I checked, and dentures, orothodontic supplies and a host of other dental bits and bobs are zero or exempt. So Im confused.

The motor tax office wouldnt give me a reciept today for a fee I paid them for my drivers licence, so I doubt its an offence to refuse to give one. Bad practice for a private company though.

Dentures are not materials, they are medical devices, the labs pay vat on the materials they buy to make them. Laboratories set a schedule of fees which are listed and given to clinics, invoices are issued each month and dentists cannot claim vat back on price paid.

Oryx could you show link to where you checked.

dudara

Posters - you're heading off-topic for the Consumer Issues forum, so I'm going to move this to the Dentistry forum

dudara

btkm8unsl0w5r4

There is no vat on dental services or any dental device that stays in a persons body. Crowns, implants, bridges, dentures, filling are vat exempt as a dental services such as check up and cleaning.

Dentists and hygienests are not vat registered and cannot vat register.

The non issuing of receipts is odd, did you pay cash?

Dianthus

OP, the PRSI system covers one checkup a year, no more.
It is impossible for a dentist to claim for a second checkup within a 12 month period; if anyone tries what happens is, a form is returned to the practice saying "treatment declined" or "not eligible". And NO fee is paid, simple as.
The checkup fee is claimed from the government (which you indirectly pay tax for), & the whole thing is computorised and so quite tightly regulated.

The form can only be sent away if you signed your signature to it.
If you did,& it has been sent away& processed, then it has been a year since your last checkup under PRSI, & it will be another year before your next one under PRSI.

It's not really advisable to do a scale and polish without having done a checkup (for oral cancer, gum disease, decay, loose fillings, ect) first.

The receipt thing does sound a little dodgy.....

Glenbhoy

davo10 wrote: »

Unfortunately not, all are charged plus vat, none are exempt.

Glenbhoy though a receipt is a record of sale, I'm just not sure why the clinic refused to give it as OP claims, what difference would it make whether it was given or not, the OPs receipt taken in isolation or even as a group of receipts would not come to the attention of revenue, in fact it is far more likely to be an issue by not giving it, as shown on this thread. If this is a policy in the clinic, it is a foolish one.

The chain you refer to is not owned by a dentist but rather a venture capitalist, the dentists working there are technically self employed. I'm not sure how this works if a patient takes a claim for negligence, whether the dentist or the corporate is liable. I would imagine there would be legal loops to jump through.

Re the receipts, such discrepancies would only come to light in an audit situation. But you're right, not issuing one makes no sense.

I'm still pretty certain that a receipt must be issued, a receipt can take many forms however, so motor tax office (i purchased tax online today and didn't get one either) may see the issuance of the tax disc as proof of payment. Maybe the receipt comes with the disc?

Re that chain of dentists, I imagine the new revenue thoughts on dental associates will force a restructuring of some kind. It will be interesting, but, I'm sure the same chain will have done plenty of research on how exactly to proceed.

eric hoone

All professions have some sharp practitioners. It'd be nice to name and shame but that's what the tax defaulters list is for at the end of the day. Revenue is the one government department they should expand to put the fear in these chancers

digzy

OP you should've been given a receipt.
Unfortunately, Routine scale/polish, fillings etc are not tax deductable.Therefore I dont see why you want a receipt. It's not like where you buy a jumper or a shirt where you need proof of purchase in case of a problem. TBF the dentist will hardly 'deny' you if you've a problem with the service provided.

It's gas the amt of petients that pay with the company/business credit card-obviously claiming it as an expense wrt revenue. best of luck to them but an audit wouldn't wanna be round the corner!

As regards the PRSI form, I wouldn't be letting that keep me up at night.
The shocking removal of your dental benefit despite having it deducted from you pay would be annoying me more.

cathy01

I asked for a receit because I always do, for my own records no one else.
It was when I was told no, it would cost me more that I became concerned.
I paid useing my case, I didnt see why the dentist would need to process my PRSI.Thats all.
I was asked how long it was since I attended and I said years,

No giving a receipt, for any reson when requested is wrong.It stinks of Dodgieness.I was eeven asked Why I wanted one.Sure I cant claim back.I didnt want to , it was €25 , great value , clean polish and xray, but its been told a receipt would cost me more, just felt wrong.

ballsymchugh

is it anything to do with if you have bought an online deal, then if you ask for a receipt, then you have 2 receipts? i think i'm missing something. it doesn't make sense.
i remember a patient asking me for 2 receipts for an insurance claim, but had to tell them to make a copy of their own, as 2 receipts would imply they paid twice.

edit: sorry, facebook deal wouldn't involve paying before you went in. ask them why you weren't given a receipt. it shouldn't be a big deal to give you one.

green123

the dentists here seem to be only focusing on the receipt issue.

what about the title of the thread - double charging ?

getting paid by the customer for the service on offer and then also claiming via prsi ?

davo10

green123 wrote: »

the dentists here seem to be only focusing on the receipt issue.

what about the title of the thread - double charging ?

getting paid by the customer for the service on offer and then also claiming via prsi ?

Depending on the wording of the offer and whether it refers to Prsi entitlement ie €25 if covered by Prsi, it does sound like sharp practice and OP was right to object. It also depends on whether it was a policy dictated by the owner or just a mistake by receptionist, a phone call by OP would clarify this.

These types on online deals like groupon/ Facebook etc are legally banned in US because they are a commercial inducement to have treatment which may not be necessary, a prime example here is low cost treatment advertised by foreign clinics where people have multiple un-necessary crowns/veneers because they feel they are getting a great deal.

Dianthus

green123 wrote: »

the dentists here seem to be only focusing on the receipt issue.

what about the title of the thread - double charging ?

getting paid by the customer for the service on offer and then also claiming via prsi ?

Which can only be claimed if the patient signs the PRSI form themselves,twice, in 2 separate columns!
Said form is fairly black-and-white; it expressly states that the dentist is claiming a fee for the checkup.
Whether OP signed the form without reading it, or read it and signed it regardless, only if it was signed if it was claimed for....OPs' pen stroke authorised the whole thing; if she was unclear or unhappy she should not have given a signature.

green123

Dianthus wrote: »

Which can only be claimed if the patient signs the PRSI form themselves,twice, in 2 separate columns!
Said form is fairly black-and-white; it expressly states that the dentist is claiming a fee for the checkup.
Whether OP signed the form without reading it, or read it and signed it regardless, only if it was signed if it was claimed for....OPs' pen stroke authorised the whole thing; if she was unclear or unhappy she should not have given a signature.

the point is that she should not have been asked to sign it.

the deal on offer was for a set price with no mention of forms or claims but when she got to the dentist they tried to change the deal to get paid twice for the job

Dianthus

green123 wrote: »

the point is that she should not have been asked to sign it.

the deal on offer was for a set price with no mention of forms or claims but when she got to the dentist they tried to change the deal to get paid twice for the job

People chance things all the time, especially people trying to make a quick buck
If all practices could afford to do a checkup& cleaning for €25,it'd be happening. This practice decided to run an offer at a loss& chance their arm with the PRSI.
Bottom line, OP signing the form allowed them to get away with it. Maybe other patients refused, maybe others signed, maybe others weren't even eligible for PRSI.
Alarm bells should ring for people if a deal sounds too good to be true, OPs' experience proves that there's often a catch- in this case, at least it was a form,&not unnecessary crown/bridge/implant work.

btkm8unsl0w5r4

Just to play devils advocate, should you realistically expect a 25 euro checkup and scale and polish, and good customer service to go hand in hand?

eric hoone

Most people wouldn't begrudge the dentist for claiming their dental benefit since they can't claim it in any other way but it is a bit cheeky, and non-issuing receipt is just dodgy.