registration queries

Kierran.M

i have a vehicle which is on english plates and is sorn, i aquired the vehicle three years ago and have since had it in my garage undergoing a full rebuild. my query is i intend on it being ready for the road around march time and intend on using it but i am planning on going to england in september and the vehicle will be coming with me, can i somehow use it over here for that 6 months and not change over the plates to irish plates then back to english, cheers

Atlantic Dawn

Not legally.

MugMugs

Revenue will tell you that vehicle should have been registered here when she came into the country..... I'd imagine that's going to cause you issues.

If you were to kill the SORN though and head back to the UK, drive for your desired period of time and then register upon her re return to Ireland, I couldn't see a big issue....

awec

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mathepac

MugMugs wrote: »

... I couldn't see a big issue....

Nor do I really apart from defrauding the state of money that was due three years ago and the relevant penalties ...

MugMugs

mathepac wrote: »

Nor do I really apart from defrauding the state of money that was due three years ago and the relevant penalties ...

Way to go quoting out of context....

awec

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Our man in Havana

awec wrote: »

When you VRT it they'll ask for the date it came in to the country, with proof of how it got here (like a ferry ticket). They'll be curious as to why this was 3 years ago.

If it came via area 6 there will be no proof. Feck all they can do either.

awec

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mathepac

MugMugs wrote: »

... If you were to kill the SORN though and head back to the UK, drive for your desired period of time and then register upon her re return to Ireland, I couldn't see a big issue....

mathepac wrote: »

Nor do I really apart from defrauding the state of money that was due three years ago and the relevant penalties ...

Sorry about that. I hope this clarifies the matter.

Our man in Havana

MugMugs wrote: »

Revenue will tell you that vehicle should have been registered here when she came into the country..... I'd imagine that's going to cause you issues.

If you were to kill the SORN though and head back to the UK, drive for your desired period of time and then register upon her re return to Ireland, I couldn't see a big issue....

Nope and you can simply show them the latest ferry card.

MugMugs

mathepac wrote: »

Sorry about that. I hope this clarifies the matter.

Tell me. Let's assume that this vehicle entered the Republic went straight into a garage and has been laid up there since. She's not been on an Irish road. She is still UK registered.... If the OP takes her back to the UK, removes the Sorn.... Uses her in the UK and upon returning to Ireland declares import of the vehicle and registers her here and taxes..... Where exactly is the fraud? How has the state actually physically lost out on revenue..... The motor wouldn't have been paying anything in tax anyway so how is the state at a loss financially?

jsd1004

MugMugs wrote: »

Revenue will tell you that vehicle should have been registered here when she came into the country..... I'd imagine that's going to cause you issues.

If you were to kill the SORN though and head back to the UK, drive for your desired period of time and then register upon her re return to Ireland, I couldn't see a big issue....

A vehicle does not have to be registered here within 3 days if it is not used on a public road, there is lots of vehicles imported into ireland that are not registered and do not have to be. eg track cars , motocross bikes etc. Customs tax and vat would have to be paid if the vehicle comes from outside the EU. I presume this car was trailered in so was never driven on a public road. This however still does not entitle you to drive it here for any period unless it is registered.

MugMugs

jsd1004 wrote: »

A vehicle does not have to be registered here within 3 days if it is not used on a public road, there is lots of vehicles imported into ireland that are not registered and do not have to be. eg track cars , motocross bikes etc. Customs tax and vat would have to be paid if the vehicle comes from outside the EU. I presume this car was trailered in so was never driven on a public road. This however still does not entitle you to drive it here for any period unless it is registered.

And I implied that you're entitled to drive on an Irish road where?

In relation to the non registration of a vehicle, I held that view and was promptly told that I was incorrect and that every and all vehicles entering the state must be registered.

Our man in Havana

The problem is if revenue agents find the car as mere possession is an offence. Your not safe even in a lock up garage.

MugMugs

Our man in Havana wrote: »

The problem is if revenue agents find the car as mere possession is an offence. Your not safe even in a lock up garage.

True.... An extreme scenario but true...

jsd1004

MugMugs wrote: »

And I implied that you're entitled to drive on an Irish road where?

In relation to the non registration of a vehicle, I held that view and was promptly told that I was incorrect and that every and all vehicles entering the state must be registered.

You were told wrong. Vehicles only need to be registered if they are to be used in public spaces..ie the road.

jsd1004

MugMugs wrote: »

True.... An extreme scenario but true...

False. Please check your facts. If the vehicle was ever used on an Irish public road you are committing an offence. If it was trailered in for example you are not.

Our man in Havana

As far as the revenue are concerned if it has plates your in trouble. You will then have an uphill struggle to convince them of non use which I am extremely dubious would even work if you are found in possession.

MugMugs

jsd1004 wrote: »

False. Please check your facts. If the vehicle was ever used on an Irish public road you are committing an offence. If it was trailered in for example you are not.

From revenue.ie
All motor vehicles in the State, other than those brought in temporarily by visitors, must be registered with the Revenue Commissioners. A vehicle must be registered before it can be licensed for road tax purposes.

Fancy backing this up with a credible link?

awec

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awec

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jsd1004

MugMugs wrote: »

From revenue.ie
All motor vehicles in the State, other than those brought in temporarily by visitors, must be registered with the Revenue Commissioners. A vehicle must be registered before it can be licensed for road tax purposes.

Fancy backing this up with a credible link?

Yes this is correct..only if you require the vehicle to be used on a public road. There is countless vehicles in Ireland that were imported and not registered among them track cars, drift cars, motocrossers, show cars, some tractors. It is illogical that a car that is not used on a public road and does not need or legally require registration be registered and subject to VRT and road tax. You can use any fuel you like as well in said vehicle as it is not registered for public/road use. I have a UK registered track car that is only used on track and does not require irish plates as it never sees Irish roads. It was trailered in to the country and should i wish to register it here i can but revenue have no interest in it unless i drive it on a public road.

awec

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jsd1004

awec wrote: »

But do you have anything to back this up?

Preferably from a reputable source (like the Revenue website) ?

Cause I can't find it.

Yes because revenue does not have any interest in vehicles that are not registered for road use. Any information on their site is related to vehicles that are to be used in a public area. I think you are confusing a vehicle that is driven intoIireland and the revenue stop the person on a public road with foreign plates. They are in a lot of trouble as it is their onus to prove that the vehicle has just arrived. A car in a lock up on English plates is out of their jurisdiction if it has been trailered in.

awec

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September1

First of all unlike Road Tax there is absolutely nothing about roads in VRT. I'm really shocked that many people are continuously finding non-existent link between Irish road and VRT. There is no direct link. VRT cares about vehicles, if one day lawmakers decide to call chimneys a vehicle then we will have to pay VRT, even though chimneys are in houses outside of road system. Simple, but not strictly legal way of explaining it is that Ireland is doing import duty in way to avoid offending EU masters. It is constructed to make you pay on import, not on use.

This brings me to second point, VRT cares about vehicles and section 130 of Finance Act 1992 (plus plenty of amendments) defines what is a ‘‘mechanically propelled vehicle’’ which is subject of this tax. I think last update was in 2007 and:

“mechanically propelled vehicle” means a vehicle that –
(a) has been designed and constructed for road use,
(b) is, at the time of declaration for registration, in compliance with any
measures taken to give effect in the State to any act of the European
Communities relating to the approximation of the laws of Member
States in respect of type-approval for the type of vehicle concerned,
(c) is intended or adapted for propulsion by a mechanical means, or by an
electrical means or by a partly mechanical and a partly electrical
means, and
(d) [is capable of achieving vehicle propulsion at the time of registration,
to the satisfaction of the Commissioners,]
12

So if your imported mechanical device is not constructed for road use and is not in compliance with it would not fall in scope of VRT. Obviously most of sports cars were at some point road legal, so only (b) could matter. However car mentioned was simply declared non use, rather than converted into off-road vehicle - hence you should pay VRT and fines, otherwise government would have to raise taxes on most vulnerable.

I think myth about trailers and not touching public roads is based on the fact that many motor sport vehicles are transported in such way - which is result of them being not vehicles from point of law.

There is also Statutory Instrument 412 of 2005 which requires vehicles to be used in republic to conforming to EU regulation to be considered for registration. It defines vehicle to be NOT:

specifically constructed or adapted for use in competition, on roads or in off-road conditions, and

so I'm confused now. Does it mean that such vehicle cannot be registered or can be registered (and VRT paid) even if it not conforms to regulations?

It would be cool if someone actually smart could read those regulations and comment, rather than me babbling on stuff I have no idea about.

Our man in Havana

You raise many valid points.

I wonder how you get on if you rendered a car unfit for road use after bringing it in. Would there be issues if you removed the plates and just drove it in the fields?

mathepac

jsd1004 wrote: »

... I presume this car was trailered in so was never driven on a public road. ...

Why?

Kierran.M

the vehicle was trailered into the country as it had been sitting for a long period and was not fit to drive and when i got it home and unloaded we started it up the drove it into the garage where it has been for the 3 years and photos to prove its rebuild work if that helps. i feel as if this thread is going in a differnet direction, is it possible for me to somehow register it for use on irish roads for a 6 month period untill it goes back to england, cheers.

slimjimmc

jsd1004 wrote: »

False. Please check your facts. If the vehicle was ever used on an Irish public road you are committing an offence. If it was trailered in for example you are not.

Care to support your claims with hard evidence.
I can quote law that refutes your claim. The law states is an offence to be in possession of an registered vehicle unless authorised by Revenue Commissioners.

Sect 131 Finance Act 1992

(4) A person shall not have in his possession or charge after the 1st day of January, 1993, an unregistered vehicle or a converted vehicle as respects which the prescribed particulars in relation to the conversion have not been declared to the Commissioners unless the person is an authorised person or the vehicle is the subject of an exemption under section 135 in force for the time being.

The only people permitted to store an unregistered vehicle are those who have been authorised to do so (normally motor dealers).

Sect 136

136.—(1) Notwithstanding the provisions of section 131 , a person may be authorised by the Commissioners to manufacture, distribute, deal in, deliver, store, repair or modify unregistered vehicles and to convert registered vehicles.

(2) A person shall not be authorised under this section unless he appears to the Commissioners to satisfy such requirements as they may think fit to impose.

corktina

jsd1004 wrote: »

A vehicle does not have to be registered here within 3 days if it is not used on a public road, there is lots of vehicles imported into ireland that are not registered and do not have to be. eg track cars , motocross bikes etc. Customs tax and vat would have to be paid if the vehicle comes from outside the EU. I presume this car was trailered in so was never driven on a public road. This however still does not entitle you to drive it here for any period unless it is registered.

no it has to be registered within 30 days... there is no distinction in the regulations that I've ever seen that excuses some vehicles. That some vehicles that you mention aren't VRTd is not to say that they don't need to be

To answer the OPs query, you can't legally do what you want to do...

Kierran.M

right the best thing for me to do is just leave it and trailer it back to england when i go back

slimjimmc

Kierran.M wrote: »

the vehicle was trailered into the country as it had been sitting for a long period and was not fit to drive and when i got it home and unloaded we started it up the drove it into the garage where it has been for the 3 years and photos to prove its rebuild work if that helps. i feel as if this thread is going in a differnet direction, is it possible for me to somehow register it for use on irish roads for a 6 month period untill it goes back to england, cheers.

Technically you should have registered ages ago but you could talk to Revenue to see if you can register now and perhaps even get an exemption from VRT.
Once registered your car will be assigned an Irish registration number for life. If you go back to the UK you can re-register there and get the UK plate back. (and vice-versa if come back here again).

Kierran.M

if i was to write a letter telling them of my situation and that i was not aware of this information when the time comes that is in a road worthy condition i might make some headway, perhaps. im wondering would it be worth the hassle for 6 months of driving

Marcusm

Kierran.M wrote: »

right the best thing for me to do is just leave it and trailer it back to england when i go back

A few things, many of which you may choose to ignore:

• Sounds like you should have declared it as a "permanent export" when you brought it to Ireland.
• Your SORN is ineffective as the car is not in GB. That is one of the conditions; fines for false declaration (highly unlikely) plus back tax etc (theoretically).
• You will need to MOT it before you can tax it in the UK; you will be able to have it on the road for the day father test (subject to insurance) but not any ther day.
• Insurance will likely be a bit complex unless you are a UK resident (assuming you're going to insure itin te UK to MOT and tax it there).
• ANPR cameras would make it difficult to have it on the road in the UK for any period without MOT, tax and insurance.
  
  

Thought I'd add to the list of bad things. Personally, I'd gather the relevant evidence that it wasn't roadworthy/capable of propulsion when you brought it over (hopefully by low loader) and get it NCT/VRT'd now rather than having any more hassle.

Kierran.M

if you mean low loader a jeep and trailer which because it was 3 years ago i do not have record of it but i do have photo evidence that it has been in my garage in pieces and reciepts to show for new parts but on it

Our man in Havana

Which won't matter a bit to a revenue official.