Explain unemployment gap

LegacyUser

In this theoritical situation lets suppose you have a person called Barry.

Barry has 7 years full time experience in IT (3 as a technician and 4 years working with networks/servers/AD/VPN's/exchange/ISA etc) at his uncles business. But Barrys uncle decides not to put him through the books so in actual fact it looks as though Barry has been unemployed all his life.

And to make matters worse, Barry has no qualifications after his leaving cert. It was his first and only ever job. He left that job because it wasnt worth the worry/stress/hassle of not being on the books and wanted to get himself a "real" job.

A year later hes still unemployed. All interviewers are saying the same thing. "so you finished school 8 years ago and at no point in that time have you ever done anything with yourself and now your applying for a job with our company".

Barry also applied for a college course this year but wasnt accepted.

Barry is (very reluctantly) thinking of going back to his uncles business as hes getting sick and tired of been on social welfare and not being able to do anything with his life.

Whats your advice to Barry on how to get himself a "real" IT job.

All this is a theoritical situation.

Eoin

I'm not sure that a prospective employer would have to know that Barry and his uncle were dodging taxes, provided that Barry's uncle can give him a reference for those 7 years. I think that Barry could contact the tax office himself if he got a legit job rather than have to give the new employer a P45.

edellc

Tbh op its a silly scenario, he does not need to inform an employer that his uncle and he fiddled the books

And p45 are only relevant in the year they are issued so hypothetically if he started work in Jan 13 no p45 needs to be produced

As for a reference regards of fiddling the books the uncle can still provide one

LegacyUser

I should have it made clearer in the OP. The uncle is refusing to give a reference, as he fears if he did give one then it could be seen/used as proof that he was/is "cooking the books" as you might say.

Eoin

This might be my lack of accounting knowledge coming through here, but presuming that Barry was paid for his time, how was that being written off?

seamus

Eoin wrote: »

This might be my lack of accounting knowledge coming through here, but presuming that Barry was paid for his time, how was that being written off?

Unvouched expenses. Used to be very common, but there are also other ways, such as taking cash from customers and using that cash to pay your staff, then you declare the income from that sale as the reduced amount. Et voila, nobody pays tax.

To answer the OP's question, there's no chance whatsoever that a reference will land the uncle in hot water. Once the uncle sticks to the line that "He left here in 2011", then there will be no need to get revenue involved to look for P45s, etc.

It's also worth noting that Barry has as much to lose here as his uncle does. If his unpaid work is discovered, Barry will be personally liable for 7 years' nonpayment of income tax, as well as possible criminal charges if he was claiming social welfare benefits during that time.

They would both be better off saying that he worked in the family business on a voluntary basis for those seven years. At least in that regard he can claim to be both 8 years unemployed but still have the experience.

edellc

Fill a mate/his dad/any older person in on his duties while working there dates etc and give them as the reference you can still use uncles name so when an employer rings looking for said uncle off they go with your reference

Little white lie for the greater good

jd83

Tell your uncle to cop on and give you a reference. That his refusal is messing with your chances of getting any work. Tell him he wont need to worry about a reference getting him stung by revenue because if he doesn't provide one for you will report him directly to revenue yourself.

tatli_lokma

I can't see how the new employer would care about the tax dealings of the old company. PRoviding a reference is not likely to prompt them to check further as to the financials of a company or report them to revenue - what suspicion would the new employer have to do that? Uncle will get a phone call, and be asked to provide a reference. Uncle will do that. New employer will either be satisfied or not. The chances of new employer giving a cat's tiddly about they hows and whys and wherefores of the finnancials of that employment are very slim.

I would be more concerned that Barry is using his uncle as a referee, as a new employer might not consider them a valid referee given the familial connection - the uncle is hardly likely to give a poor reference is he?

I think a good idea would be give uncle as a reference, but also ask for references from other people Barry dealt with in the company who are not related to him. So companies the uncle sent him to, people he provided technical work for. These people a)will not have any knowledge of how barry was employed so can't land anyone in it with tax and b) have first hand knowledge of Barry's work.

Eoin

Little Ted wrote: »

I can't see how the new employer would care about the tax dealings of the old company. PRoviding a reference is not likely to prompt them to check further as to the financials of a company or report them to revenue - what suspicion would the new employer have to do that?

I'm guessing that the uncle is concerned that it is now somehow "in the system" by acting as a referee, rather than being worried about the new employer following up on it.

tatli_lokma

Eoin wrote: »

I'm guessing that the uncle is concerned that it is now somehow "in the system" by acting as a referee, rather than being worried about the new employer following up on it.

If that is the case then the Uncle is a bit thick. Giving a phone reference does not put you "in the system"!!! If that were the case, no one would ever give a fake reference !

Mrs OBumble

I would say that Uncle is indeeed a bit thick ... and Barry needs to use family pressure to either

1) get Uncle to continue supporting him - but this time make it legal, or
2) get Uncle to change his mind.

Or to use the less-than-ethical approach suggested by a poster above (which I cannot possibly recommend 'cos I'm supposed to be upholding the law here, if you get my drift )

Toasterspark

If he won't give the reference, then just get a friend to act as your uncle and give the reference.

Barry has accumulated skills and expertise regardless of the tax dodging of his uncle, and it seems unfair that he would refuse a reference to his nephew. At the end of the day, Barry has actually completed the work he says he's done, so even though you have to tell a little white lie for the reference, the information is actually true.

Stupid uncle.

Eoin

Toasterspark wrote: »

Barry has accumulated skills and expertise regardless of the tax dodging of his uncle, and it seems unfair that he would refuse a reference to his nephew.

Not to get too preachy, but Barry has also dodged tax for 7 whole years, so probably shouldn't feel too hard done by his uncle.

Toasterspark

Well fair enough, but preventing Barry becoming a tax-paying worker now almost seems like a double-blow!

tatli_lokma

Uncle can cover his own arse if he wants by claiming that Barry was a contractor. That way, technically Barry was responsible for his own taxes. If he is worried about that issue, then the blame shifts from him to Barry.

Barry might suggest this to his not very bright Uncle as a compromise. I would be fairly happy to bet my last euro that the enw company are not likely to give a fiddlers about tax or anything else - they just want a reference to be sure before employing him, that Barry can do the things he claims to be able to do and isn't some sort of nut job.

RacoonQueen

It seems Barry doesn't even have his work with his uncle down on his CV though?

Barry should put his work with his uncle down on his CV and underline what his duties and experience in that area are while doing so.

Was there anyone else who Barry worked with at the company who could provide a reference?

If Barry gets a job he can just ask the company for their registration/tax details and sort out the form for your 'first' job himself, they're downloadable from the internet and just explain that the last company were giving you hassle over P45 or you were having trouble getting your P45 or whatnot.

tatli_lokma

No need to even say that you were getting hassle over your P45. Unless you are employed within the same year as the P45 it doesn't apply - so P45 issued 2012, new job 2013 - P45 is redundant. Also, if you do get a new job, you just ring revenue armed with your PPS number and your new employer's registration number. Tell revenue what date you started with them, and bob's your uncle (pardon the pun!) they will send you out a tax certificate and one to the new employer. The whole point of the P45 for a new employer is to get this cert, so if you do it for them they won't care that you didn't give a P45.