Mobile App Cost Estimate

Nulty

I mean design, development, integration, maintenance and other things that I can't think of right now. The whole package.

I know I'm being very vague and I don't expect a number but a broad range.

The app would be a LeapCard version of this Oyster Card Balance app except it would harness NFC technology in the phone to top up the card.

Be creative with your assessment if you want, this is not a real project.

Nulty

I see this really captured the collective imagination in here!

Colonel Panic

It's just a common post these days. None of us have any way of knowing from what you described in your OP and it wouldn't be a fun game to guess.

Maybe there's a business forum on boards?

Duggys Housemate

1) unless you have access to the Irish rail API you won't be able to get leap card information. If anybody does this it will be Irish rail.
2) if you want to use NFC to do the scanning you would need access to a secure API to handle online charges - which they probably don't have, and some way of securely talking to the specific scanners over NFC. If people could just write an App to fool a scanner we would have one by now. Illegally.

This is the kind of thing that the organisation has to do , not joe schmo.

Nulty

Thanks for the responses. I understand that it's not a fun game to guess but assuming all conditions were met and it was outsourced by the NTA (Leap Card), all API's were available and the payments were safe. The idea was to have the phone/bank top up the account and only the accounts balance would be available through NFC, limiting the risk of theft and sniffing.

I was guessing somewhere in the region of 5k to 10k?

ChRoMe

Nulty wrote: »

Thanks for the responses. I understand that it's not a fun game to guess but assuming all conditions were met and it was outsourced by the NTA (Leap Card), all API's were available and the payments were safe. The idea was to have the phone/bank top up the account and only the accounts balance would be available through NFC, limiting the risk of theft and sniffing.

I was guessing somewhere in the region of 5k to 10k?

10k sounds like a decent starting point for minimal functionality.

These sorts of threads wouldn't irritate me as much if thought there was an actual possiblity of somebody having budget and putting out a tender.

Nulty

ChRoMe wrote: »

10k sounds like a decent starting point for minimal functionality.

These sorts of threads wouldn't irritate me as much if thought there was an actual possiblity of somebody having budget and putting out a tender.

I know, I'm sorry for asking such an annoying question! So I'm guessing, in your estimation, that implementing the application across mobile OSs would double that if it were to have a little more than minimal functionality.

The reason people ask these questions is cause no one knows! Most people could guess the price of a house but it seems even people who build applications can't guess the cost of implementation. So many IT projects go over budget so I guess you could factor that in. I'm always of the belief that it will cost more than it 'should'.

Colonel Panic

5k to 10k would get you a barebones app provided you had access to the LEAP API and a single underpaid (therefore inexperienced and/or crap) developer. What it wouldn't cover would be testing, legal matters, marketting, graphic design or the kind of polish people expect even from a free application these days.

I'm thinking tens of thousands.

Nulty

Colonel Panic wrote: »

5k to 10k would get you a barebones app provided you had access to the LEAP API and a single underpaid (therefore inexperienced and/or crap) developer. What it wouldn't cover would be testing, legal matters, marketting, graphic design or the kind of polish people expect even from a free application these days.

I'm thinking tens of thousands.

Perfect, thanks for your input. That's all the estimate I needed.

Atomic Pineapple

As above 10k could possibly get you an app but it wouldn't be good, to get the description in your OP done to a high enough quality you'd be looking at minimum 30K I'd imagine.

markpb

Nulty wrote: »

The app would be a LeapCard version of this Oyster Card Balance app except it would harness NFC technology in the phone to top up the card.

Others have given you quotes so now I'm going to throw cold water over it The actual LeapCard balance is stored on the card itself, so it's not available on a server somewhere. The card isn't NFC so even if your phone had an NFC chipset, it wouldn't be able to talk to the card.

You could, theoretically, query the LeapCard website for the balance but it's only updated at night so it could be up to 24 hours out of date.

Nulty

markpb wrote: »

Others have given you quotes so now I'm going to throw cold water over it The actual LeapCard balance is stored on the card itself, so it's not available on a server somewhere. The card isn't NFC so even if your phone had an NFC chipset, it wouldn't be able to talk to the card.

You could, theoretically, query the LeapCard website for the balance but it's only updated at night so it could be up to 24 hours out of date.

What is it then?

ChRoMe

Nulty wrote: »

What is it then?

RFID probably.

Nulty

markpb wrote: »

Others have given you quotes so now I'm going to throw cold water over it The actual LeapCard balance is stored on the card itself, so it's not available on a server somewhere. The card isn't NFC so even if your phone had an NFC chipset, it wouldn't be able to talk to the card.

You could, theoretically, query the LeapCard website for the balance but it's only updated at night so it could be up to 24 hours out of date.

Internet says this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leap_card#Technical_detail

http://mifare.net/products/mifare-smartcard-ic-s/mifare-desfire-ev1/

Plus a friend of mine turned his NFC on and scanned the card it tried to read the chip but of course it is encrypted

markpb

You've answered your own question already but yes, Leap is a contactless smart card (ISO14443) which is AFAIK similar to but not the same as NFC.

Duggys Housemate

Nulty wrote: »

Internet says this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leap_card#Technical_detail

http://mifare.net/products/mifare-smartcard-ic-s/mifare-desfire-ev1/

Plus a friend of mine turned his NFC on and scanned the card it tried to read the chip but of course it is encrypted

Most of this amateur attempts at hacking indicates you don't really have an "in" to the RPA.

Nulty

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

Most of this amateur attempts at hacking indicates you don't really have an "in" to the RPA.

I don't know what your trying to say

Nulty

markpb wrote: »

You've answered your own question already but yes, Leap is a contactless smart card (ISO14443) which is AFAIK similar to but not the same as NFC.

Hmmm, it doesn't look like there is very much to distinguish them unless you read the standards documentation but thanks for pointing this out.

It says on the NFC wiki page (my emphasis):

NFC incorporates a variety of existing standards including ISO/IEC 14443 both Type A and Type B, and FeliCa. NFC enabled phones work basically, at least, with existing readers. Especially in "card emulation mode" a NFC device should transmit, at a minimum, a unique ID number to an existing reader.

So, ISO 14443 is incorporated in NFC. Like you said they are similar but not the same thing. I think its ok to call the technology in Leap Cards NFC, wouldn't you?

maxmarmalade

Did anyone get to the bottom of whether it is possible for smartphones to read the Leap card?

Nulty

maxmarmalade wrote: »

Did anyone get to the bottom of whether it is possible for smartphones to read the Leap card?

afaik, they could if the phone had permission to read the card.

maxmarmalade

Nulty wrote: »

afaik, they could if the phone had permission to read the card.

It would be a very useful app. I will investigate it myself and get back to you

The Corinthian

Nulty wrote: »

The reason people ask these questions is cause no one knows! Most people could guess the price of a house but it seems even people who build applications can't guess the cost of implementation. So many IT projects go over budget so I guess you could factor that in. I'm always of the belief that it will cost more than it 'should'.

If I didn't know any better, I'd suspect you're thinking about pitching this to Irish Rail and want to know what ballpark to pitch it at. If so, having dealt with Irish Rail in the past, you have both my admiration and pity.

All you'll likely get here is development estimates at best. The reality of dealing with government bodies (especially any CIE member company) is far, far more expensive as you have to then deal with endless bureaucracy, trade unions, internal politics, accountability-phobia and general incompetence. This will bloat project management and the requirements-design phases into literally 99% of the project T&M.

As long as they have access to the budget (and this is the big 'if') you should be able to gauge them for between 100k - 200k, especially if you give them an initial low-ball quote with higher change request rates.

If you feel guilty about that, just think of it as a tax rebate.

Duggys Housemate

The Corinthian wrote: »

If I didn't know any better, I'd suspect you're thinking about pitching this to Irish Rail and want to know what ballpark to pitch it at. If so, having dealt with Irish Rail in the past, you have both my admiration and pity.

All you'll likely get here is development estimates at best. The reality of dealing with government bodies (especially any CIE member company) is far, far more expensive as you have to then deal with endless bureaucracy, trade unions, internal politics, accountability-phobia and general incompetence. This will bloat project management and the requirements-design phases into literally 99% of the project T&M.

As long as they have access to the budget (and this is the big 'if') you should be able to gauge them for between 100k - 200k, especially if you give them an initial low-ball quote with higher change request rates.

If you feel guilty about that, just think of it as a tax rebate.

Why would they hire this guy though?

1) the app doesn't need to talk to the leap card, it needs to talk to the reader. Most people misunderstood that. It needs to handshake an authorization, and then, probably, send the remaining credit to the reader. In general they always let you tag off, but you can only tag on when in credit.

There is also some time limit. Thats already in the cards.

2) Importantly it needs some secure way of buying credit from existing servers, securely, using credit cards ( or alternatively using in app purchase but that would be awkward for all involved).

3) doing 2) is probably an internal job and not one for an "app dev". If not an internal dev then some outsourced body who is already doing this for Irish Rail, it is that outsourcer who will hire any dev if any is needed, and if Irish Rail want this.

The Corinthian

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

Why would they hire this guy though?

Never said they would, only said I admired his chutzpah - presuming this is his intention - but in fairness, if he's acting solely as a freelancer, then they almost certainly won't. Setting up as a company can be done relativity easily, then exaggerate how big you are to get the bigger contracts - how do you think L*******h (name obfuscated for legal reasons) used to do it 10 - 15 years ago?

The point I was making was that the technical complexity is by far a secondary consideration here. You can treat this as a technical question, if it pleases you, but at the end of the day it's a business one.

3) doing 2) is probably an internal job and not one for an "app dev". If not an internal dev then some outsourced body who is already doing this for Irish Rail, it is that outsourcer who will hire any dev if any is needed, and if Irish Rail want this.

Find out who they are and discuss carving up the roast over a few pints, then pitch together.

ChRoMe

The Corinthian wrote: »

You can treat this as a technical question, if it pleases you, but at the end of the day it's a business one.

This is a very very common situation that escapes the majority of developers.

That makes me happy though, as it lets us developers who understand the business reasons far more valuable

Nulty

It's gas how suspicious people can get in this forum. I'm not pitching this to anyone, it doesn't interest me professionally whatsoever. It was an honest inquiry for a ball park figure cuase it was a college project we were working on and that is all there is too it.

Good luck to anyone actually considering doing it, your welcome to the idea!

Duggys Housemate

Nulty wrote: »

It's gas how suspicious people can get in this forum. I'm not pitching this to anyone, it doesn't interest me professionally whatsoever. It was an honest inquiry for a ball park figure cuase it was a college project we were working on and that is all there is too it.

Good luck to anyone actually considering doing it, your welcome to the idea!

Thanks, its not a great idea.

What did you learn for your course here?

MyPeopleDrankTheSoup

Nulty wrote: »

It's gas how suspicious people can get in this forum. I'm not pitching this to anyone, it doesn't interest me professionally whatsoever. It was an honest inquiry for a ball park figure cuase it was a college project we were working on and that is all there is too it.

Good luck to anyone actually considering doing it, your welcome to the idea!

Does every college require a project on costing an app these days? I got about 10 email last month looking at a breakdown of costs for someones college project, fair annoying.