Dark horse for 2013

lala88

Who do people think will be dark horses for next year?

On the football side of things if they push on from last year i think Laois have a good chance of making the Leinster final. If they can build on the success of the last few years they could make the Leinster final also. Cavan have had alot of underage success won the last 2 Ulster Under 21 titles, a Ulster minor and Leinster Junior so they have a great chance of making the Ulster final.

In hurling i think Clare will have a big on the back of a lot of underage success the last fewyears

Tom Joad

Sligo could have a good year given that they should make it to the Connacht final fairly handy and a good qualifier draw could see them having a good run..

In Leinster I think Longford will make the Leinster final..

While I would love to agree re Cavan I still think that we are 2-3 years off challenging for a run in the championship - if we could catch Armagh we could have a great year we a decent chance of getting a run in Ulster - it's a massive if though...

Can't wait for the championship already:D

lala88

I meant to say Longford to make the Leinster final, playing in Div 2 will be a big help to them

Syferus

The six-day turnaround for the Connacht losers (let's be blunt, Sligo will likely lose to whoever is strong enough to emerge from the other side) means a qualifier win for Sligo is remote, especially after how abject they have been after losing the 2010 and 2012 finals. For Sligo it'll be everything or nothing next July.

meath12

i think a few teams will improve, i actually think longford/laois will make the leinster final, i have a bad feeling about us playing longford in pearse park, theyre improving and are very hard to beat at home. i think galway will beat mayo and win connacht.

Always_Running

Syferus wrote: »

The six-day turnaround for the Connacht losers (let's be blunt, Sligo will likely lose to whoever is strong enough to emerge from the other side) means a qualifier win for Sligo is remote, especially after how abject they have been after losing the 2010 and 2012 finals. For Sligo it'll be everything or nothing next July.

Leitrim have Sligo at home next year and didn't they beat them in the last two championship games?

Max Power

Dublin

slievenamon fella

clare in the hurling and galway in the football

Syferus

Always_Running wrote: »

Leitrim have Sligo at home next year and didn't they beat them in the last two championship games?

Sligo remain a far better team and they have a far more settled panel and structure. Their u21s and minors have been quite good lately to boot. I wouldn't bet anything on the Leitrim game even being close.

cormac halpin

The racist undertones to this thread title unsettle me.

robbiezero

Clare in hurling I would see as most likely to make a bit of a breakthrough.

In football I expect the usual suspects to be there i.e. the semi-finals to contain 4 out of Dublin, Kerry, Cork, Mayo, Donegal. I guess Kildare could be the dark horse if they regain the form of the years before last.

cormac halpin

robbiezero wrote: »

I guess Kildare could be the dark horse if they regain the form of the years before last.

Aye and Meath could be a dark horse if they got the players from the late 80's back.

dirtyden

I would say Limerick are much more likely than Clare to do well in the hurling next year (but 2 out of KK Gal and Tipp will make final).

In football Clare under O'Dwyer will do well, simply becuase he always does it.

Mal-Adjusted

dirtyden wrote: »

I would say Limerick are much more likely than Clare to do well in the hurling next year (but 2 out of KK Gal and Tipp will make final).

In football Clare under O'Dwyer will do well, simply becuase he always does it.

Both have going strong in Hurling recently. it's tit-for-tat on who's better.

Clare should make it out of division 4 in the next year or two under O'Dwyer, otherwise there's no hope for them.
Tipperary are growing noticeably in Football, though they're still a long way off

lala88

dirtyden wrote: »

I would say Limerick are much more likely than Clare to do well in the hurling next year (but 2 out of KK Gal and Tipp will make final).

In football Clare under O'Dwyer will do well, simply becuase he always does it.

Why? Clare have had a lot more success. 2 Under 21 All Irelands the last 3 years, played in an All Ireland minor final and won an Intermediate All Ireland last year, so alot of players used to winning. All Limerick have is one Munster Under 21 tltle

lala88

I think Roscommon will win Connacht next year. With a new manger and soe good young players

dirtyden

lala88 wrote: »

Why? Clare have had a lot more success. 2 Under 21 All Irelands the last 3 years, played in an All Ireland minor final and won an Intermediate All Ireland last year, so alot of players used to winning. All Limerick have is one Munster Under 21 tltle

More of a gut feel/opinion, I could be wrong. Last year's U21 was very competitive. Any one of 4 or 5 teams might have won it and I would include Limerick in that.

I just have a feeling a lot of the lads on the Clare minor and U21 teams were good hurlers at that level but may not necessarily make the jump to senior as quickly. I thought Limerick with a pretty new set-up this year were quite competitive and that they will come on a bit more this coming year.

Clare might make a step up but I dont see it (just yet) based on last year.

Squidgy Black

Hopefully some of last years u21s and minors from the Dublin hurling squads will make an impact, and we'll see a decent championship run.

The_Kew_Tour

lala88 wrote: »

Why? Clare have had a lot more success. 2 Under 21 All Irelands the last 3 years, played in an All Ireland minor final and won an Intermediate All Ireland last year, so alot of players used to winning. All Limerick have is one Munster Under 21 tltle

Limerick won 3 U21's in row about decade ago and what came off it?

Underage age success does not mean success. Just ask Galway.

For me Limerick in Hurling too and not sure about football really.

willietherock

My dark horse is Kilkenny. JJ, TW,M Fennelly, Rice,Larkin,Power,C Fennelly were all off their usual standards (injury wrt to Rice). Add in their underage is seriously underrated, R Doyle, O Walsh, Ger Aylward are class. I expect KK to win every hurling match next yr by at least 15 pts.

Mal-Adjusted

^^^ you need this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_horse

Clareman

I think it's a year (at least) too early for Clare, a lot of the Under 21s are still under age, this year for us will be all about keeping division 1 status and winning a couple of championship matches.

For me, Meath or Galway in the football and Limerick in the hurling

Syferus

Galway have to beat Mayo, Roscommon and Sligo to even win Connacht. Of all the Connacht teams they probably have the least possibility of being dark horses when you couple how abject their form in the qualifiers has been. Mulholland might come good but when the likes of Bergin are retiring because they' don't see improvement' you have to wonder if perhaps he's been hyped up too much and that the task of making Galway a force again will be a long old road.

I know I'd be very happy to see them dispensing with Mayo because even taking this year's loss into account they're a county a step bellow Mayo in absolute terms.

jive

Tyrone. Not exactly a dark horse but they didn't win anything this year and got knocked out in the qualifiers, wouldn't surprise me to see them go all the way next year. They're 7th in the pecking order of the betting at 20/1 so they are dark horses to some extent!

lala88

lala88 wrote: »

I think Roscommon Johnny Evans will win Connacht next year. With a new manger and soe good young players

Thats the way he'd see it if it happened, trust me

flogging a dead horse

If Galway win another Leinster, then what about the possibility of a Galway v Clare final. The first final without the big 3 since the introduction of the back-door.

Mal-Adjusted

i'd love to see it, but it's probably a few years off at best.

Also , i'd consider Galway to be one of the big 3, assuming you're talking about Tipp, KK ad Cork?

blowitupref

Syferus wrote: »

Galway have to beat Mayo, Roscommon and Sligo to even win Connacht. Of all the Connacht teams they probably have the least possibility of being dark horses when you couple how abject their form in the qualifiers has been. Mulholland might come good but when the likes of Bergin are retiring because they' don't see improvement' you have to wonder if perhaps he's been hyped up too much and that the task of making Galway a force again will be a long old road.

I know I'd be very happy to see them dispensing with Mayo because even taking this year's loss into account they're a county a step bellow Mayo in absolute terms.

That's part of game, some players in their 30s having given over 10 years will call time on their inter county careers others like PJ will hang around hoping for improvement. Mulholland has won All Ireland's with Galway minor,u21s however it's going to take alot of work getting Galway back to the level they were in 1998 - 2002 for a start Galway don't have the forwards they once had.

Saying all that it they could still win Connacht next year, they have Mayo at home if they win that it's another home game v Roscommon then a final v Leitrim or Sligo. Winning those games are more possible than beating the likes of Dublin,Cork,Kerry or Donegal in the All Ireland series.

MfMan

Syferus wrote: »

Galway have to beat Mayo, Roscommon and Sligo to even win Connacht. Of all the Connacht teams they probably have the least possibility of being dark horses when you couple how abject their form in the qualifiers has been. Mulholland might come good but when the likes of Bergin are retiring because they' don't see improvement' you have to wonder if perhaps he's been hyped up too much and that the task of making Galway a force again will be a long old road.

Sadly, it's hard to disagree. Galway probably don't have one player these days that you'd say would get on most other teams around. And absolutely nothing of any discernible class coming through either, no player that excites. Don't think we can even aspire to being dark horses for many years to come, such is the lowly state of affairs.

aidan24326

Syferus wrote: »

Galway have to beat Mayo, Roscommon and Sligo to even win Connacht.

That puts Mayo in the same boat though, that they have to beat Galway, Roscommon and Sligo to retain their Connaught title. Which is a tough draw for them aswell. That game in Salthill really will be crucial for both teams as the loser will face being dumped into the first round of the quaiifiers with all that entails. For Galway especially it's a sh1t or bust game given our atrocious record in the qualifiers.

Alphonso

dirtyden wrote: »

I would say Limerick are much more likely than Clare to do well in the hurling next year (but 2 out of KK Gal and Tipp will make final).

In football Clare under O'Dwyer will do well, simply becuase he always does it.

What did Wicklow do that showed much improvement under O'Dwyer? They never even got out of Div 4 in the league. As for his team with Laois, he had a very successful bunch of underrage players to work with but in the weakest era possibly ever for Leinster football he still only won one Leinster title. And they did nothing in the league.
Alot of the stuff about O'Dwyer is myth. HIs time with Kildare saw them improve alot on where they were, but it still took them SEVEN years just to win a Leinster. In all he only managed two Leinster titles with them. Much more than any era since the 60s or 50s at least, but not exactly a revolution or unqualified success for such a legendary figure in the game.

Dark horse? Possibly Longford to some extent. Laois aren't really a dark horse after last summer. Maybe Tipp in football and Dublin in hurling. Dark horses to win the trophies? Kerry in football, Dublin in hurling.

klairondavis

Alphonso wrote: »

Alot of the stuff about O'Dwyer is myth. HIs time with Kildare saw them improve alot on where they were, but it still took them SEVEN years just to win a Leinster. In all he only managed two Leinster titles with them. Much more than any era since the 60s or 50s at least, but not exactly a revolution or unqualified success for such a legendary figure in the game.

You do realise the level Kildare were at when O'Dwyer took over? He totally turned our fortunes around. Five Leinster Final appearances, two titles, an All-Ireland Final appearance and a League Final appearance was a great return from his two spells in charge especially considering that Dublin were so strong in the early 90s and Meath had such a good team in the latter half of the decade. The late Dermot Earley couldn't get a win with the same group of players when he was Kildare manager in 1995 and 1996. Compare Kildare's record in the 70s and 80s when we were truly pathetic and the likes of Tompkins and Fahy couldn't wait to move on. For all the plaudits that the current manager receives from the national media, he hasn't got Kildare to anywhere near the level they were at under O'Dwyer.

robbiezero

klairondavis wrote: »

You do realise the level Kildare were at when O'Dwyer took over? He totally turned our fortunes around. Five Leinster Final appearances, two titles, an All-Ireland Final appearance and a League Final appearance was a great return from his two spells in charge especially considering that Dublin were so strong in the early 90s and Meath had such a good team in the latter half of the decade. The late Dermot Earley couldn't get a win with the same group of players when he was Kildare manager in 1995 and 1996. Compare Kildare's record in the 70s and 80s when we were truly pathetic and the likes of Tompkins and Fahy couldn't wait to move on. For all the plaudits that the current manager receives from the national media, he hasn't got Kildare to anywhere near the level they were at under O'Dwyer.

Agree completely.
Regarding Laois to put it simply-
before Dwyer = poison. After Dwyer = poison.

Yes they had a few great minor teams, Dwyer had them for 4 years at senior, where did they go to outside that time period.

beggars_bush

after seeing the Connacht club final today, if Johnny Evans can get Roscommon playing decent football I think they could make an impact.

Alphonso

klairondavis wrote: »

You do realise the level Kildare were at when O'Dwyer took over? He totally turned our fortunes around. Five Leinster Final appearances, two titles, an All-Ireland Final appearance and a League Final appearance was a great return from his two spells in charge especially considering that Dublin were so strong in the early 90s and Meath had such a good team in the latter half of the decade. The late Dermot Earley couldn't get a win with the same group of players when he was Kildare manager in 1995 and 1996. Compare Kildare's record in the 70s and 80s when we were truly pathetic and the likes of Tompkins and Fahy couldn't wait to move on. For all the plaudits that the current manager receives from the national media, he hasn't got Kildare to anywhere near the level they were at under O'Dwyer.

I agree and I did say he improved them alot. And there's no doubt that was back when you would say Micko was still in his prime, and his coaching methods were still quite relevant.
And it was very unfortunate to have lost two players as good as LT & SF. Then again Micko has often looked to bring in outside players to counties himself.
One of the things though that annoys me about the deification of Micko is that since his time with Kerry he has never either got or taken a job with a major county. Why is that?
It could mean a couple of things, that as alot of commentators and Micko fans say, he's just an idealistic football-lover who wants to help the meek & the poor, and to take on "huge, impossible challenges".
Or you could say that a man who was clearly a born winner, a leader, a businessman, a tough and ruthless character at times, a man of ambition, that he didn't want to risk his great reputation with any job where he would be expected to win things.
Because no matter what he did with Kildare, Laois etc, nobody would ever really expect much in the way of trophies. And if they didn't come, blame the players (Kildare not good enough, Laois not disciplined enough etc)
And it was never going to be the hardest thing in the world to get Kildare and Laois and Wicklow to play a bit better, to be harder to beat, to have a much better training program - he was Micko, anybody would do anything for him.
I think the suspicion will always linger that he was afraid to be seen as a failure at any other county, having had so much success with the Golden Generation Kerry teams. His image & reputation just could not be risked.

I like the idea that a man of his ability came to help (albeit very well-imbursed) weaker counties, but ultimately Micko was such a winner in football it has left a big gap in GAA to have not seen him battling it out seriously at the top end (other than twice with Kildare) since he left the Kerry job.
I'm not saying he took easy gigs, but he did not in many ways take much risk with the jobs, as was suggested in years gone by. They were pretty much jobs where he couldn't fail

Alphonso

robbiezero wrote: »

Agree completely.
Regarding Laois to put it simply-
before Dwyer = poison. After Dwyer = poison.

Yes they had a few great minor teams, Dwyer had them for 4 years at senior, where did they go to outside that time period.

Yes but what level were they at in the years he had them? It was the beginning of the weakest ever era for Leinster football. And they had the qualifiers. They beat Kildare in 2003, a Kildare in terrible decline post Micko era, and a team and county he knew well how to beat. They also beat Dublin that year, who under TL were at their lowest ebb in a generation or more.
They lost to Westmeath the following year, winning their first ever Leinster Senior. And they lost to a very mediocre Dublin the year after that. They did very little in the All-I championships.
I grant you he got them to a league final, which was a great achievement in some ways. But let's not forget in the 80s, up against great Offaly and Dublin sides, didn't they also got to a couple of LFinals and win the Nat league?
He had those young players in their prime. Before he left them they had already gone back to poison - in 2006 and 2007 they were woeful. Does Micko not have to take even some responsibility for that? If it was any other coach they would have been let go and blamed for not getting the best out of the players.

dirtyden

Alphonso wrote: »

What did Wicklow do that showed much improvement under O'Dwyer? They never even got out of Div 4 in the league. As for his team with Laois, he had a very successful bunch of underrage players to work with but in the weakest era possibly ever for Leinster football he still only won one Leinster title. And they did nothing in the league.
Alot of the stuff about O'Dwyer is myth. HIs time with Kildare saw them improve alot on where they were, but it still took them SEVEN years just to win a Leinster. In all he only managed two Leinster titles with them. Much more than any era since the 60s or 50s at least, but not exactly a revolution or unqualified success for such a legendary figure in the game.

Dark horse? Possibly Longford to some extent. Laois aren't really a dark horse after last summer. Maybe Tipp in football and Dublin in hurling. Dark horses to win the trophies? Kerry in football, Dublin in hurling.

He improved wicklow football, beating kildare in croke park (first ever championship win in croke park), a few good runs in the qualifiers, they were never going to win a leinster final but he improved their fortunes considerably.

His record at kildare was excellent as it was at laois. What happened these counties after he left? He brought kildare from nowhere to an all irealnd final. The man's acheivements are most certainly not myths. What i like most about him though is his obvious passion for it.

Ando's Saggy Bottom

I think Limerick are building towards something decent in hurling.

dastardly00

willietherock wrote: »

My dark horse is Kilkenny. JJ, TW,M Fennelly, Rice,Larkin,Power,C Fennelly were all off their usual standards (injury wrt to Rice). Add in their underage is seriously underrated, R Doyle, O Walsh, Ger Aylward are class. I expect KK to win every hurling match next yr by at least 15 pts.

Brilliant! :pac:

aidan24326

Anyone tipping Galway as a dark horse for the football don't waste your time. This is the worst Galway football team in living memory and we're not within a million miles of being contenders. Having thought about the game in Salthill next May there probably won't be too much in it as there never is between Galway and Mayo but if Mayo are serious about being All-Ireland contenders again next year they ought to be beating Galway with a few points to spare.

premierstone

beggars_bush wrote: »

after seeing the Connacht club final today, if Johnny Evans can get Roscommon playing decent football I think they could make an impact.

lol see what you did there

blowitupref

Under Evans Tipp played decent football in 2009,2010 what happened the last two years?

premierstone

blowitupref wrote: »

Under Evans Tipp played decent football in 2009,2010 what happened the last two years?

They got good results and were making progress but the football was never decent or attractive, Evans is a good organiser and has obvious qualities but he is tactically naive and a dictator, can't see it working long term tbh.

beggars_bush

premierstone wrote: »

They got good results and were making progress but the football was never decent or attractive, Evans is a good organiser and has obvious qualities but he is tactically naive and a dictator, can't see it working long term tbh.

except Roscommon have a relatively decent pool of players compared to Tipperary

RoscommonTom

Pete Campbell wrote: »

I think Limerick are building towards something decent in hurling.

Does any fella know what odds there is for the rosies to make the last four, it would be interesting to know, might be worth a Bob or two if we get our act together

RoscommonTom

beggars_bush wrote: »

after seeing the Connacht club final today, if Johnny Evans can get Roscommon playing decent football I think they could make an impact.

I was only thinking the same myself

Fr Tod Umptious

RoscommonTom wrote: »

Does any fella know what odds there is for the rosies to make the last four, it would be interesting to know, might be worth a Bob or two if we get our act together

Pretty astronomical I'd imagine.

To get to the last four they would have to take one of the following routes, both of which ate not easy.

1. Beat Mayo or Galway away from home, then beat Sligo (probably) and then win a QF

2. Loose to Mayo or Galway then try to win three qualifier games plus a QF against a provincial champion.

But he you know what they say, "a fool and his money are easily parted"

manofwisdom

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Pretty astronomical I'd imagine.

To get to the last four they would have to take one of the following routes, both of which ate not easy.

1. Beat Mayo or Galway away from home, then beat Sligo (probably) and then win a QF

2. Loose to Mayo or Galway then try to win three qualifier games plus a QF against a provincial champion.

But he you know what they say, "a fool and his money are easily parted"

Yes it's unlikely to happen Roscommon defeating Mayo/Galway away would be a major surprise. Out of interest i wonder what odds Mayo were to reach the last four in 2011 when they needed extra time to beat London?

Clareman

I think 1 of the problems with football that there are so many "known" good teams there now, to pick a dark horse you've to disregard most teams in Ulster, Cork, Kerry, Dublin and Mayo, after that you don't have many teams left.

beggars_bush

Roscommon minors and under 21s have been beating Mayo, Galway and Sligo teams for the past few years.
Same at club level.
It has to translate to senior level at some stage

tiny timy

Leitrim!