Geoff's v Waterford City Council

Jason Todd

This pic I stole from Facebook was taken in the window of Geoff's today. Seems they are taking a stand against the high (some would say ridiculous) rates of WCC.

Good to see someone taking a stand... or setting a bad precedence?

Dicky Pride

I'm tempted to point out that Geoff doesn't like paying for anything but in this case all I can say is how disgraceful these rates charges are. Publicans have enough to be forking out each month.

Cabaal

This should be interesting, can't see Geoff's winning out in the end though

Smiley Burnett

i bet if a customer went in and ordered a drink and then refused to pay on a point of principle, they would get a fairly sharp response from Geoff and co!!!

having said that, the issue of business rates/charges needs to be addressed....one sector is unfairly carrying the burden of financing local authorities.....this point is conveniently forgotten in the household charge debate!

7upfree

Smiley Burnett wrote: »

i bet if a customer went in and ordered a drink and then refused to pay on a point of principle, they would get a fairly sharp response from Geoff and co!!!

having said that, the issue of business rates/charges needs to be addressed....one sector is unfairly carrying the burden of financing local authorities.....this point is conveniently forgotten in the household charge debate!

SIXTEEN GRAND? WTF?

Cabaal

Smiley Burnett wrote: »

one sector is unfairly carrying the burden of financing local authorities.....this point is conveniently forgotten in the household charge debate!

Pfft, expecting people to approach the issue logically when its more fun for them to shout and scream about it and say how bad the government is?

Are you crazy???

Smiley Burnett

7upfree wrote: »

SIXTEEN GRAND? WTF?

exactly---it's too high!!!

Trick of the Tail

Not clear what period that figure is for, it might be arrears.

However, the What For? question can be answered by saying street lights and sewage disposal.

Seems a bit expensive!

Its a pity more businesses don't take a stand against the council over their crazy 'rates'.

I enclose that word in quotes, because for rates, read 'business tax'.

How else is the council going to keep up the essential services, like hanging baskets and artworks?

A.

Petey89

16 Grand!! that is just disgraceful, what do these charges actualy pay for? its no wonder the city is closing down with these kind of rates!

MitchKoobski

This would probably explain why the prices never go down in there and I was recently asked for €1.80 for a bag of peanuts.

Bringthethunder

There given the option to pay per week which would work out at round 310 euro a week. Nothing to that place with the money they make. Publicity stunt is what this is, they will be looking for a WRH type march/protest next.

BlaasForRafa

Bringthethunder wrote: »

There given the option to pay per week which would work out at round 310 euro a week. Nothing to that place with the money they make. Publicity stunt is what this is, they will be looking for a WRH type march/protest next.

So you are privy to Geoff's revenue and profit figures eh? Perhaps you can tell us then how much profit Geoff's makes per year hmm?

I'm sure that the services provided by the corporation wouldn't come near to the €16k that Geoff's is being charged. Also for sure is the high rent and rates figures contribute towards the number of boarded up premises in the city centre area.

henboy

Didn't he try this stunt when the smoking ban came in . Then he went and built a smoking shed .

lertsnim

I don't recall any kind of stunt when the smoking ban came in. What stunt did he pull?

henboy

lertsnim wrote: »

I don't recall any kind of stunt when the smoking ban came in. What stunt did he pull?

Same thing as what his doing now .

Jason Todd

henboy wrote: »

Didn't he try this stunt when the smoking ban came in . Then he went and built a smoking shed .

lertsnim wrote: »

I don't recall any kind of stunt when the smoking ban came in. What stunt did he pull?

I remember there was talk of him splitting the bar in half, right down the middle, so that the left hand side was smoking n drinking and the right hand side would be food and drink. Obviously was never going to get away with it, but is that what you were talking about henboy?

henboy

Jason Todd wrote: »

I remember there was talk of him splitting the bar in half, right down the middle, so that the left hand side was smoking n drinking and the right hand side would be food and drink. Obviously was never going to get away with it, but is that what you were talking about henboy?

Ah ye something like that .

MOC88

Probably only trying to highlight it more than anything along with a bit of publicity. The rates are atrocious in the county for businesses as well not only the city

mike65

The country needs a rates strike, it wouldn't take long for our legal friends to realise that a way can be found to lower them.

Morte

Yes, by bringing in domestic rates!

mike65

Nothing wrong with domestic rates, or is that your point?

Sully

Well, something needs to give. Business is dropping and rates are on the increase. The council/government needs to address this issue and promptly.

One of the problems appears to be businesses putting the rates on the long finger (I assume this is the case here) and paying other bills with priority. Then, you have a much higher rates bill left which is very difficult to pay. The council, from what I am being told, are more than willing to help in anyway they can and sort out a repayment programme but it appears the rates issue wont change.

dzer2

Cut out the freebies to brazil to look at coconuts and mad travelling expenses given to councillors that might help lower the costs

Munurty

Geoff's is a limited company and has to file accounts which are available to the public.

Name GEOFF'S WATERFORD LIMITED Number IE041177


They have no problem paying these rates as they have a very large cash reserve. It seems it's out of protest rather than no being able to pay.

mozattack

Surprised this is news...

I know a local pub in a local village who's rates are €6,500 per annum. You need to sell 13,000 pints to clear margin to pay that, nevermind other costs like wages etc.

I know a closed down hotel where the rates are €37,000. Yes €37k and that is in a town not so far away.

wellboytoo

I know of a liquidater who is trying to sell a factory in Co Waterford and the County Council will not do a deal with him on the rates , they are looking for more in rates than he can get for the sale of the building! so impasse.
He tells me Waterford County and Kildare are the only Counties in Ireland who will not deal when it comes to rates.

O Riain

Munurty wrote: »

Geoff's is a limited company and has to file accounts which are available to the public.

Name GEOFF'S WATERFORD LIMITED Number IE041177


They have no problem paying these rates as they have a very large cash reserve. It seems it's out of protest rather than no being able to pay.

Just checked it there, if this was a business on it knees I would feel very sorry for them or even a business that is only doing moderately well. As it stands E16,000 is pennies for him and if people were aware of how much money he has/is making from Geoffs then he would get no sympathy from anyone. How are rates calculated, is it on profit or the size/type of the business? I understand they need to come down alright but it can't be spearheaded by an extremely profitable business like Geoffs.

ToxicPaddy

I personally know of 3 businesses that have closed down due to the absolutely crazy rates being charged in Waterford city centre.

One went to the landlord of the premises they were renting and came to a very decent deal where the rent was reduced due to the economic climate and even with suppliers they were able to do deal, but the council absolutely refused. Even with the threat of it closing the business as it not financially viable to continue paying those rates the council wouldn't budge.

Eventually they had to close the business and made a point of going down to the city council office and simply informed them, "Congratulations, you're the reason I had to close my business and put 4 people out of work, you must be so proud of yourselves". :mad:

Psychedelic

O Riain wrote: »

How are rates calculated, is it on profit or the size/type of the business?

The way rates are calculated is two-fold, from my memory it works something like this:

First, there is a Rateable Value on every property, which is based on the size (sq. metres) of the property and its location. Thus, the rateable value for a large city centre premises would be a lot higher than a small unit in a suburban business park. The RV on a property is set by Valuation Office Ireland.

Second, there is a 'multiplier' which is what the Councils set in their budget each year. This is just a figure like 33.67 which is multiplied by the rateable value to give the amount owed on a property. Something like that anyway.

I'd say the Council can't do deals on rates, even if they know the business will close, as it's probably against competition law, and even so they couldn't just do a deal for one business and not others.

Businesses asking "What for?" - well Geoff should already know, but things like Winterval, Harvest Festival, Tall Ships, Viking Triangle, and all the other things the Council pay for that benefit businesses, not to mention obvious things like keeping the streets clean. Most Councils in the country have anywhere between 20-50% of their income coming from commercial rates. They are essential income. They need to be reduced, no doubt about it, but I think this change needs to happen at Government level and not Local Authority level.

decimal

The amount of bitching about the "who" rather than the "what" is depressing since the general consensus is that rates are too high.

Birdfood

Commercial properties in Waterford were re-valued for rates this year. New rates will be set soon based on data collected this year. The aim is to have a fairer spread of rates. Let's see.

http://www.valoff.ie/reval_schedule.html

SPQRI

mike65 wrote: »

Nothing wrong with domestic rates, or is that your point?

Where do they find these idiots?

mike65

Meaning?

kryogen

SPQRI wrote: »

Where do they find these idiots?

People who feel they should have to pay for nothing?

SPQRI

kryogen wrote: »

People who feel they should have to pay for nothing?

What are we in reality paying for?

You are paying for the millions gambled by those who had a decent enough of a living who wanted more! How many millions do you need to live comfortably?


This will happen again & again after when this recession eventually lifts.
The taxpayer will always be there to bail out the banks.

mike65

What the **** does any of that have to do with secure, predictable local government funding?

7upfree

SPQRI wrote: »

The taxpayer will always be there to bail out the banks corrupt failed economic entities..

FYP.

sparkling sea

You woud have to wonder if Geoff's would be the right business to spear head a war against rates??

Rates do have to be paid, but even just a small bit of reality wouldn't go amiss when calculating the amount a business can afford to pay.

Businesses who are on the brink of going bust because of the amount they are requested to pay in rates, should be exempt. Forcing business to fold does nothing to help our economy, we have less tax income, more jobseekers expenditure and more empty units that are neglected.

The emphasis should be on supporting businesses at this time and not engaging in idealistic projects like the Waterford/Tramore cycle lane which we can't afford. Local businesses should not be forced to close just because people in local government appear to know nothing about economics.

Maybe we need a state of emergency to be called in Waterford - we definitely need some help here.

padraig.od

sparkling sea wrote: »

You woud have to wonder if Geoff's would be the right business to spear head a war against rates??

Rates do have to be paid, but even just a small bit of reality wouldn't go amiss when calculating the amount a business can afford to pay.

Businesses who are on the brink of going bust because of the amount they are requested to pay in rates, should be exempt. Forcing business to fold does nothing to help our economy, we have less tax income, more jobseekers expenditure and more empty units that are neglected.

The emphasis should be on supporting businesses at this time and not engaging in idealistic projects like the Waterford/Tramore cycle lane which we can't afford. Local businesses should not be forced to close just because people in local government appear to know nothing about economics.

Maybe we need a state of emergency to be called in Waterford - we definitely need some help here.

That's silly. Rates are a known cost when you decide to start a business. Businesses who are about to go bust because of their rates bill is a failed economic entity. What about a similar business up the road, which has improved productivity, margins, customer services during the recession and is successfully paying the same rates? You're giving an undeserved competitive advantage to the failing business. Maybe the business can't afford his rates bill because the dude running it is a moron?

Having said that there should be a debate on rates, on what services the corporation/council provide and what a fair rate should be for all businesses, not one rate for a successful one and a different rate for an unsuccessful one.

We need a hero...

AdMMM

It sets a bad precedent for a highly profitable bar to get away with not paying rates. There are businesses (and many pubs) out there that are struggling but still pay their rates. This gives businesses like Geoffs a competitive advantage, not that Geoffs would actually invest this money in upgrading facilities but at least they have the option thanks to not paying rates and saving himself 16k.

Spadzy

Rates as far as i know are done on the square footage of the property of the building.
It’s ok if you have a very profitable business as geoffs is but if you are a struggling business they could be the cause of you having to close up your business.
Rates need to be reviewed and done on maybe profits and accounts of businesses instead of square footage of the buildings.
Geoffs is not too bad for rates as things go..........Shortts & crystal’s rates are close on 40k a year.....revolutions are around 22K and a rough guess on Masons id say 30-35k a year!!
You can rent Masons for €800 a week off the banks...........yet will have to pay rates of around €600 a week on it.
Its crazy!!!!!!!!!

Rant over!!

Deise_Davy

I think you are all missing the point here.

The reason for the sign in Geoff's window is what's the point in paying rates to a city council that is probably going to be abolished by Phil Hogan in the coming months.

henboy

Deise_Davy wrote: »

I think you are all missing the point here.

The reason for the sign in Geoff's window is what's the point in paying rates to a city council that is probably going to be abolished by Phil Hogan in the coming months.

Must be reading it wrong, I don't see anything about Phil Hogan on that sign. Don't think that was the reason in fairness .

Spadzy

Even if city council goes im sure the rates will still be there someway or another.

BlaasForRafa

Spadzy wrote: »

Even if city council goes im sure the rates will still be there someway or another.

If the city council does go though will city rates then end up subsidising towns and villages in the county?

AdMMM

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

If the city council does go though will city rates then end up subsidising towns and villages in the county?

Yes they will. That's one of the sore points as well of this merger because the City Council has been quite responsible with it's budget whereas the County hasn't.

Smiley Burnett

just a little pointer for ye----the LOWEST rates in the county are actually in Dungarvan......

jbwan

I can't believe that this thread is littered with negativity. Not negativity towards high rates, which IMHO are questionable considering nobody signs a contract to pay them in the first place when getting into business, but negativity towards a business that employs plenty of people and always has over the years. So what if it's a publicity thing? Slating the guy for a good idea to get people talking? He's in business, that's what it's about! If it works, people think about it, talk about it, go there, buy drinks and keep people employed. How is that a bad thing?

So many bitter in this world and very few of them bitter about the things that actually matter. Tis no wonder the country's in the state that it is...

old gregg

^ in the 48 posts before your "I can't believe that this thread is littered with negativity ...." diatribe there were maybe 4 or 5 opinions that might have been viewed as "negativity towards a business that employs plenty of people".
The rest have all been about rates in general.

Yes Boss

Smiley Burnett wrote: »

just a little pointer for ye----the LOWEST rates in the county are actually in Dungarvan......

Interestingly the majority of the rates gathered in the County come from Tramore (but unfortunately not reinvested in Tramore). This is one of the reasons why the City is not allowed to develop in a radial manner to include Tramore and Dunmore because Dungarvan would fall apart....