AI: Ireland vs Argentina, 24th November K.O 2PM, RTE2/BBC [MOD WARNING POST #1]

.ak

PREVIEW by leftleg

Ireland v Argentina: The stats
Played - 12
Won - 7
Drawn - 0
Lost - 5
Points For - 233
Points Against - 225
Biggest winning margin – Ireland: 20pts (29-9, Aviva Stadium, 2010). Argentina: 16pts (16-0, Velez Sarsfield, 2007).
Highest score – Ireland: 32pts (32-24, Lansdowne Road, 1999). Argentina: 34pts (34-23, Ferrocaril Oeste, 2000).
Most tries – Ireland: Four (32-24, Lansdowne Road, 1999 and 34-23, Ferrocaril Oeste, 2000). Argentina: Three (32-24, Lansdowne Road, 1999).
Longest winning sequence – Ireland: Three (2002-2004). Argentina: Three (2007).
Most points (individual) – Ireland: Ronan O'Gara 57. Argentina: Gonzalo Quesada 63
Most tries (individual) – Ireland: Three (Matt Mostyn). Argentina: Two (Agustin Pichot).
Most points in a Test – Ireland: 24 (David Humphreys, Stade Felix Bollaert, 1999). Argentina: 23 (Gonzalo Quesada, Stade Felix Bollaert, 1999)

Again Irish international rugby finds itself stuck down a dead end with only exit and the familiar figure of Argentina blocking its way. Mirroring 2008 nearly like for like in both situation and morale levels, Ireland need a win to stay competitive in RWC 2015, 3 years before that tournament's maiden game has even kicked off.


Up for grabs is a place in the tier 2 seeding’s group for the draw. Just like 2008. Behind the scenes, Ireland are once again licking their wounds after another dismal run of form, a 5 test losing streak. In 2008 Ireland, coming into the fixture at Lansdowne road had just been trounced at home by a rampant New Zealand. In the run up to the game,Brian O’ Driscoll compared its importance to that of a world cup fixture.
Of course everyone remembers the horror show in 2007, the battle in 2003 and misery of Lens in 1999. I Think its fair to say there is more to this match then the line ups. History has its place in this fixture. Blood may well be spilt.

The Tale so far:
2010: Ireland won 29-9 in Dublin
2008: Ireland won 17-3 in Dublin
2007: Argentina won 30-15 in Paris
2007: Argentina won 16-0 in Buenos Aires
2007: Argentina won 22-20 in Santa Fe
2004: Ireland won 21-19 in Dublin
2003: Ireland won 16-15 in Adelaide
2002: Ireland won 16-7 in Dublin
2000: Argentina won 34-23 in Buenos Aires

Make no mistake about it, this is going to be a battle of the backrows. Its Heaslip, Henry and O Mahoney against Senatore, Leguizamon and the graceful Argentinian captain Fernandez Lobbe. Interestingly Argentina have plummed for Lobbe at 6 rather than at 8, where he played at for the entire 4 nations championship. It’s a bit of a strange decision, especially with Senatore not being the biggest player ever to don an 8 jersey, especially an Argentinian 8 jersey (6ft3”/16st10lbs). A former flanker for Toulon, he will have his work cut out keeping the lynchpin of the Irish team, Jamie Heaslip, quiet throughout the game. But for all that you’d have to fancy the rest of that backrow. Henry and o, Mahoney look a tad young and inexperienced in comparison to Lobbe and Leguizamon. The Argentinian double act started every game in the 4 nations championship and were devastating against South Africa and Australia both home and away and in the early stages of the games against New Zealand. Parity, never mind dominance is going to be a big ask for this, for the most part, youthful and inexperienced irish backrow.
Up front, Declan has once again put his faith in the Leinster trio of Ross, Strauss and Healy. Familiarity and top level experience should give the Irish trio the edge against Bustos, Guinazu and Ayerza. Mike Ross hould be all too aware of the scrimmaging strength of Ayerza from his time in the Aviva Premiership with Harlequins. Bustos and Guinazu seem to be relative unknowns in comparison to the Irish props. This may have a strong bearing on the game.
In the backs, Johnny Sexton survived his injury scare during the warm up against Fiji and starts alongside Conor Murray. Murray will claim his 14the cap when he takes the field with Sexton and youd have to think that these two need to gel now more than ever for Ireland to get a foot hold in this game. Nicolas Sanchez and martin Landajo are there opposites. Martin landajo can feel in a way aggrieved at not getting a mention for his try against New Zealand in the Four Nations Championship.

7 passes in 21 seconds and New Zealand were cut to pieces. It wasn’t the searing pace of Amorosino that created the try though. That try was a showpiece of rugby played at pace on the gain line. Every pass and run, even decoy run, was done to perfection. The support to Amorosino was perfectly times and rarely has a kiwi team been so left for dead since Radike Samo handed off Richie McCaw and Adam Thompson to run half the pitch in the 2011 Tri-nations penultimate game at Suncorp.

In the centres, the familiar stout figure of Gordon D’arcy gets the inside centre spot and comes up against Santiago Fernandez. Interestingly Fernandez came on the scene against Ireland in 2008. That day, he was forced to start the game at fly-half after a freak injury to El Mago Hernandez in the pre-match warm-up. As a result of in-experience and possibly stage fright, just like Paddy Jackson in Twickenham last year, his game suffered and Ronan O’ Gara managed to take that game by the scruff and get Ireland the win and precious second tier seeding they needed. Beside D’arcy is Keith Earls. Speaking of stage fright, Keith has been waxing lyrical in the media this week about his now famous pre match nerves are becoming a thing of the past. Let’s hope so as he’s up against a tidy outside centre in Marcello Bosch. Bosch seems to have all the tools needed to be a top quality international outside centre. If Keith Earls can keep him quiet in defence and show some of the brief but searing outside pace he showed Jaco Taute in the Aviva a fortnight ago, Ireland could get some joy.

In the back three, Ireland has never looked younger, more inexperienced but yet so dangerous. Blistering pace is the order of the day for Ireland. Zebo at fullback and hatrick hero Craig Gilroy on the left and watch out for the late surges of Tommy Bowe off Sextons inside shoulder. I mentioned it in the review of the South Africa game and it’s something Ireland have clearly been practising in training. But its not all one way traffic. Argentina have similarly kept the best for last. My choice 14 in the Four Nations dream team, Gonzalo Camacho, joins El Mago Hernandez and Juan Imhoff in a juicy back three that will compete and cause any top tier team a lot of problems.

Again on the replacement benches there is no clear dominant side. Vergallo, Creevy and Tiesi are the stand outs on the Argentin bench while the Irish have a mix of experience in O’ Callaghan and O’ Gara along with the youthful exuberance of Sean Cronin and the Iain Henderson. Watch out for the timing of Michael Bent’s entrance. I think everyone liked what they saw in that ten odd minutes spell he got against South Africa and as such it’s a pity that he didn't get more against Fiji. Either way, Bent gets to look forward to another outing against top quality opposition in what has been a very positive start for him to Irish Rugby.

This is possibly the pick of the International games on show this weekend, purely for the seeding's side issue and also because there is a real rivalry between both of these sides. Expect fireworks, only this time lets hope they are green ones!

C,mon Ireland

Thanks to David Kelly in the Indo for the stat's and the Tale so far from Planet Rugby. Sorry guys I have no photos as I'm appending someone else's thread by pm.

____________________
MOD WARNING - STRICTLY...

NO accusations of provincial bias.
NO provincial mud slinging
NO petty shots, or off topic jabs
NO ignoring the forum charter, strict enforcement is in effect
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thomond2006

WTF is the Admiral William Brown Cup??

Sadly I don't see us winning. Argentina are in better form and are playing good rugby.

Clegg

WTF is the Admiral William Brown Cup??

I suppose Kidney will point to the Argies physicality as the reason for picking D'arcy instead of Marshall. I wouldn't have a problem with this if D'arcy could actually be trusted to get across the gainline and make his tackles. But we all know he can't do that anymore.

D'arcy still starting and ROG still in the squad. Another cowardly selection by Kidney.

Wexfordboy89

Argentina

i am right in saying if we dont win we drop out of the second seeds for the WC draw.or will we stay there if wales lose to both NZ and the Aussies and Samoa lose to France??

Teferi

WTF is the Admiral William Brown Cup??

Argies by 10 - 15?

ScissorPaperRock

Sad to see no Marshall or Jackson on the bench

irishbucsfan

Easy Peasy win

Fishooks12

Argentina

Jackson not getting a bench spot is scandalous, although I still think we'll win tbh

thomond2006

WTF is the Admiral William Brown Cup??

Poll? (Neil Francis! )

By the way, the Argentina side will be named at 5:30pm according to Michael Corcoran.

Lelantos

Argentina

Teferi wrote: »

Argies by 10 - 15?

Ah Ffs, at least have a bit of faith in the players if not the coaches. They lost to the 2nd best team in the world by 1 score, in all honesty we should beat the Argies by 7+

Teferi

WTF is the Admiral William Brown Cup??

Lelantos wrote: »

Ah Ffs, at least have a bit of faith in the players if not the coaches. They lost to the 2nd best team in the world by 1 score, in all honesty we should beat the Argies by 7+

It's the exact same team we played against a weakened South Africa team and still managed to lose. The Argies have confidence and a bit of form on their side. Can't see it.

Otacon

Argentina

I think we're going to win. It will be scrappy but I think we have enough to get by them. Agree with Clegg - O'Gara and D'Arcy should not be in the squad.

thomond2006

WTF is the Admiral William Brown Cup??

Lelantos wrote: »

Ah Ffs, at least have a bit of faith in the players if not the coaches. They lost to the 2nd best team in the world by 1 score, in all honesty we should beat the Argies by 7+

Ireland lost to the 2nd best team in the world who were missing 10-12 starters. Have you watched much of Argentina this year? Their backrow is magnificient and their outside backs are very dangerous.

Every other Six Nations country would have binned ROG at this stage and have Jackson in the 23.

duckysauce

Argentina

Teferi wrote: »

It's the exact same team we played against a weakened South Africa team and still managed to lose. The Argies have confidence and a bit of form on their side. Can't see it.

Their confidence may not be as high after the French match , can see us just sneaking it :cool:

Fishooks12

Argentina

thomond2006 wrote: »

Ireland lost to the 2nd best team in the world who were missing 10-12 starters. Have you watched much of Argentina this year? Their backrow is magnificient and their outside backs are very dangerous.

Every other Six Nations country would have binned ROG at this stage and have Jackson in the 23.

We were missing a good few starters ourselves tbf

Keeping a lid on the Argies backrow will be the key to the game. Do that and we win

Lelantos

Argentina

thomond2006 wrote: »

Ireland lost to the 2nd best team in the world who were missing 10-12 starters. Have you watched much of Argentina this year? Their backrow is magnificient and their outside backs are very dangerous.

Every other Six Nations country would have binned ROG at this stage and have Jackson in the 23.

We weren't at full strength either. I watched 2 games against SA & the AB's, I was impressed, but not overly so, they seem to fade in the last 20 mins if you put it up to them. I see us winning, not easily, but we should do it.

leftleg

.ak wrote: »

Anyone who wants their match preview here PM me.

ill see what i can impartialy put together tonight guys and ill send it to ak by pm

bamboozle

for me it boils down to whether Argentina will be burnt out after a long run of games or will they be match hardened and too much for us to handle.

There is no reason why ROG is on the bench ahead of Jackson. Pathetic.

Great to see Gilroy finally get a well deserved start. Am looking forward to seeing McCarthy in action again. I await to see POM live up to the hype as i've seen very little to suggest anything more than squad player once SOB & Ferris return to the fold.

I'm hoping for a strong final quarter to beat a jaded Puma side....just.

Scioch

WTF is the Admiral William Brown Cup??

If Argentina show up we'll lose. This Irish team isnt a team to win games, they are a team to hold on and hope the opposition lose the game.

Teferi

WTF is the Admiral William Brown Cup??

Fishooks12 wrote: »

We were missing a good few starters ourselves tbf

And we remain a weakened side...?

tbm

Argentina

Much as it pains me, if I thought losing would hasten Declans exit I'd almost hope for a close loss. As it is I think we'll need to lose this game, and probably three in the 2013 Six Nations for the IRFU to do the right thing.

The Pumas have never won in Dublin, and with them being not quite so defensively organized as the Boks, I think we might make some line breaks. If we keep our discipline i think we'll sqeak it by 3/4.

I fully expect the game to be shhhite though.

peterako

WTF is the Admiral William Brown Cup??

Clegg wrote: »

......I wouldn't have a problem with this if D'arcy could actually be trusted to get across the gainline and make his tackles. But we all know he can't do that anymore.

.....

Thought D'Arcy played very well last weekend.
Much better than his Centre Partner....

Clegg wrote: »

............

D'arcy still starting and ROG still in the squad. Another cowardly selection by Kidney.

Agreed particulaly with regards to ROG. I just cannot see what he brings to the party at this stage of his career.

But then....I also fail to see the genius that has Murray and Sexton forever paired and the other genius move of Sexton to 12....

But hey, I'm not the National Coach

Come one IRELAND!!! (Hoping for a Carlsberg moment....)

Otacon

Argentina

I don't want to be jumped on but I really hope Heaslip has a better game as captain.

At the beginning of the second half against SA, we needed our leaders to take the team aside and get us back playing properly and it didn't happen for the entirety of the half. As captain, Heaslip has to take the majority of the blame for that.

bamboozle

Otacon wrote: »

I don't want to be jumped on but I really hope Heaslip has a better game as captain.

At the beginning of the second half against SA, we needed our leaders to take the team aside and get us back playing properly and it didn't happen for the entirety of the half. As captain, Heaslip has to take the majority of the blame for that.

in fairness the SA pack cranked it up and they steamrolled us, they were far bigger than us and unfortunatly we couldnt cope with them. A savy coach may have considered using our packs energy wisely by moving the collisions away from the tight but DK in his wisdom decided on tactic munster101 by taking them on up front.

Otacon

Argentina

bamboozle wrote: »

in fairness the SA pack cranked it up and they steamrolled us, they were far bigger than us and unfortunatly we couldnt cope with them. A savy coach may have considered using our packs energy wisely by moving the collisions away from the tight but DK in his wisdom decided on tactic munster101 by taking them on up front.

After the second half has already begun, the coach's role is limited. IMO if BOD or POC were on the field, we would have had a quick chin-wag to get minds focused again.

JRant

WTF is the Admiral William Brown Cup??

Meh, about as much interest in watching this team as listening to a Kidney pre/post match interview.

Puma's to win this one handy enough. Lobbe is different class at 6, they are quality at the breakdown and have some real talent in the backs. Yes France beat them but that French team will win a grand slam in the 6N's.

Ah well, I genuinely feel for some of the lads left out. They know now that as long as DK is in charge they'll never get a proper/any opportunity to earn a jersey. Must have a bearing on overall team moral.

Just wait to see how quickly Gilroy will be jettisoned from the team if he doesn't score 4 tries, make 2 try saving tackles, kick a drop goal and pack down at tight-head.

ScissorPaperRock

Maybe in the long run it'll be good for us to lose

CatFromHue

I can't see how the Argentinians will not show up on Saturday. The possibility of dropping out of the second seedings for the RWC in the same season as they first played into the 4N's would be more than enough motivation.

If anything I worry about the Irish team showing up!

JRant

WTF is the Admiral William Brown Cup??

Otacon wrote: »

I don't want to be jumped on but I really hope Heaslip has a better game as captain.

At the beginning of the second half against SA, we needed our leaders to take the team aside and get us back playing properly and it didn't happen for the entirety of the half. As captain, Heaslip has to take the majority of the blame for that.

It's funny how nobody questioned the captain when we came out in the second half against France and played like drains diring the 6N's. Double standards me thinks.

Fishooks12

Argentina

JRant wrote: »

It's funny how nobody questioned the captain when we came out in the second half against France and played like drains diring the 6N's. Double standards me thinks.

plenty of people, myself included did, not sure what you're basing this on

JRant

WTF is the Admiral William Brown Cup??

Fishooks12 wrote: »

We were missing a good few starters ourselves tbf

Keeping a lid on the Argies backrow will be the key to the game. Do that and we win

Well then surely it makes more sense to start Locky then if thats the case.

Fishooks12

Argentina

JRant wrote: »

Well then surely it makes more sense to start Locky then if thats the case.

Why? POM and Henderson are both in better form from what I've seen

Otacon

Argentina

JRant wrote: »

It's funny how nobody questioned the captain when we came out in the second half against France and played like drains diring the 6N's. Double standards me thinks.

Fishooks12 wrote: »

plenty of people, myself included did, not sure what you're basing this on

Not too sure if I posted it, but I did think it.

bamboozle

Otacon wrote: »

After the second half has already begun, the coach's role is limited. IMO if BOD or POC were on the field, we would have had a quick chin-wag to get minds focused again.

completly agree however i just felt our pack had ran out of gas by the end of the first hald trying to bludgeon their way through the SA 8...by 2nd half we were exhausted.

Ireland by 4 in what will ultimately be a horribly dogged game littered with errors and injuries.

ROG will undoubtedly play a big part in it, probably nailing a difficult kick with 75 minutes on the clock.

This won't be pretty.

Grimebox

ROG on the bench for Ireland is like Wales putting Stephen Jones on the bench

Teferi

WTF is the Admiral William Brown Cup??

Grimebox wrote: »

ROG on the bench for Ireland is like Wales putting Stephen Jones on the bench

Surely John Hayes is well rested at this stage? No need for Bent at all, madness to bring him over.

easy peasy

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/autumn-internationals/bold-kidney-rolls-the-dice-3302227.html Anyone else read this horrific article? really got my blood boiling haha

totallegend

Argentina

The most important asset in Ireland's favour is the calendar.

If this game was two weeks ago and the Argies were fresh, we'd have lost, but they've lost a lot of players along the way and those that are still standing will be knackered.

We'll win by 5-10 points.

cbyrne11

WTF is the Admiral William Brown Cup??

easy peasy wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/autumn-internationals/bold-kidney-rolls-the-dice-3302227.html Anyone else read this horrific article? really got my blood boiling haha

Been discussed already, Indo have really bought a pup there haven't they!

tbm

Argentina

ScissorPaperRoc wrote: »

Maybe in the long run it'll be good for us to lose

I'm of the same mind, but I think we could lose this and it would still take a shocking Six Nations for the IRFU not to renew Kidneys contract.

Also, even if we are second seeds we could still get a group with Wales and NZ if Wales finish outside the top 8. Makes sod all different really, given how the standings are looking.

JRant

WTF is the Admiral William Brown Cup??

Fishooks12 wrote: »

plenty of people, myself included did, not sure what you're basing this on

So you've come out and said that POC needs to buck up his ideas as captain, really?
I'm basing it on the good old double standards that seem to apply to some on the team.

The chap had the honour of captaining his country against SA but has recieved nothing but criticism since, most of it misplaced and completely ott.

Grimebox

Also Zebo at fullback again... I really don't like him there. Put a fullback at fullback

Fireball07

Logically, you'd think we'd lose...Argentina are strong and playing much better than us. But I really really hope we don't, and I think we could sneak a narrow win.

It'll be tight, scrappy, not much in it in any case.

JRant

WTF is the Admiral William Brown Cup??

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Why? POM and Henderson are both in better form from what I've seen

Where is this mythical form that POM has been showing this year?
Yes he's a good player, can do a job covering the backrow but that's about it at the moment.
If you want to try to marshsall Lobbe and Co then a more balanced backrow of Locky, Henry, Heaslip makes sense.

molloyjh

Otacon wrote: »

After the second half has already begun, the coach's role is limited. IMO if BOD or POC were on the field, we would have had a quick chin-wag to get minds focused again.

I'm not sure about that at all I'm afraid. Our game plan seemed to be a simple kick it into their 22 and force them to put the ball into touch between the 10m and 22. Take possession from the line out and go through the phases to force the penalties. This is exactly how the first half panned out and had us 12-3 ahead. At half time the Bok coaches obviously had a word with their lads and in the second half they were rolling away from the tackle immediately and committing either 1 man or none to the rucks, particularly in their own half. This meant our "force the penalties" tactic couldn't work. So we decided we needed to attack their line more. We had no real ability to do so though as an effective Plan B didn't really exist.

Granted the SA defense was very well organised, but we were ultimately toothless. No amount of leadership was going to get us over the line in that one IMO.

I'd agree that the most important thing about the game is the Puma players fitness levels. They've had 2 tough games not long after a tough tournament. There's every chance they won't be up to a full 80. That really could be the difference between the sides on the day.

For as unhappy as I am with things at the moment you won't finding me hoping for an Argie win though. Don't understand why some would....

irishbucsfan

molloyjh wrote: »

I'm not sure about that at all I'm afraid. Our game plan seemed to be a simple kick it into their 22 and force them to put the ball into touch between the 10m and 22. Take possession from the line out and go through the phases to force the penalties. This is exactly how the first half panned out and had us 12-3 ahead. At half time the Bok coaches obviously had a word with their lads and in the second half they were rolling away from the tackle immediately and committing either 1 man or none to the rucks, particularly in their own half. This meant our "force the penalties" tactic couldn't work. So we decided we needed to attack their line more. We had no real ability to do so though as an effective Plan B didn't really exist.

That's not how it happened at all though. Not at all. Don't know where you've got that from. They approached the breakdown almost precisely the same. Our move away from the kicking game really had nothing to do with breakdown play, in fact there had hardly been any breakdowns on our ball up to that point in the second half. I think only 1 in open play.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=81733911&postcount=1298

Otacon

Argentina

molloyjh wrote: »

For as unhappy as I am with things at the moment you won't finding me hoping for an Argie win though. Don't understand why some would....

This I agree with. If we lose, we are then a Tier 3 team. Kidney or no Kidney, that makes the next RWC almost impossible to do well in.

Podge_irl

It baffles me that anyone could look at the SA game and decide the biggest problem was at left wing.

Fishooks12

Argentina

JRant wrote: »

So you've come out and said that POC needs to buck up his ideas as captain, really?
I'm basing it on the good old double standards that seem to apply to some on the team.

The chap had the honour of captaining his country against SA but has recieved nothing but criticism since, most of it misplaced and completely ott.

Yep, thought he made some really bad decisions in last years six nations, the second half of the French game in paticular.

I really don't think Heaslip has recieved much critique at all since the game, he actually played well. Stop being so precious. You seem to have a problem with people questioning some of the decisions he made against SA in his capacity as captain

Fishooks12

Argentina

JRant wrote: »

Where is this mythical form that POM has been showing this year?
Yes he's a good player, can do a job covering the backrow but that's about it at the moment.
If you want to try to marshsall Lobbe and Co then a more balanced backrow of Locky, Henry, Heaslip makes sense.

He's been one of Munsters best players this year while up until his last game, Locky has been pretty dissapointing this season considering how good he was in NZ

Henderson has been playing better than both of them anyway, so I don't think Locky has any claim to be in the starting 15 if the decision is made on current form.