BMW 3 Series , Can it be returned ?

Apocalypse

Hi Guys

Not sure if this is motors or consumer affairs issue , so apologies if I have it in the wrong forum.

I bought a 03 BMW 3 series with 4 months warranty about 4 months ago off a mechanic who services vans etc for our company.
I was a fool of course for not having my own mechanic look at it beforehand.

All was grand until I brought it down to a garage a work colleague goes to , the mechanic there rigged the computer up to it and said that the timing chain was stretched and it would need replacing.

When I went back to the mechanic who I bought it off and told him this he denied it and said there was nothing wrong with it , after talking to his apprentice it turns out they knew about the timing chain all along but he now refuses to replace it and claims that its not covered by the warranty because its technically "not broken".

The yellow oil light is coming on frequently after oil refill , I brought it to him and he filled it up to the 3rd notch on the dipstick , I reset the clock and after about 1050 miles the light started coming on again.

Now there is a kind of whitish gunk around the oil cap on the engine , my work colleague consulted his mechanics about it and they reckon its the head gasket on the way out or piston damage.

So to cut a long story short , would I be able to get my money back ?
There's nothing in writing just a verbal contract.

Thanks

sean1141

So you don't have the warranty in writing??

Apocalypse

sean1141 wrote: »

So you don't have the warranty in writing??

Im afraid not , we have a "gentleman's agreement" if you will.
But he's far from a gentleman as you can tell :mad:

L5

Apocalypse wrote: »

Im afraid not , we have a "gentleman's agreement" if you will.
But he's far from a gentleman as you can tell :mad:

Not worth the paper it's (not) written on.

sean1141

You could get a solicitor but I think it would be a very hard card to win. You have no written prove of a warranty and unless the apprentice is willing to stand up and say they knew about it you will fine it very hard to prove it either.
You could try ask him to meet you half way, you cover the parts and he covers the labour?

I think your chances of getting a refund after 4months are nil..

Apocalypse

When the warranty was up I said i wasn't happy about the timing chain and he said he would "extend" the warranty on the engine , he didn't say for how long though.
So would any of this hold up in the small claims court ?

sean1141

I'm guessing you don't have this in writing either? If so it will be your word against his that he offered any warranty at all

Marcusm

Did your new mechanic advise that it needs replacing immediately or at some future stage? If it's a future issue, I think you'd have no chance even with a written warranty.

Del2005

Apocalypse wrote: »

Hi Guys

Not sure if this is motors or consumer affairs issue , so apologies if I have it in the wrong forum.

I bought a 03 BMW 3 series with 4 months warranty about 4 months ago off a mechanic who services vans etc for our company.

This is the only but that's important. Did you buy it off a person or a company?

If it was a private sale you've gotten more than needed and going legal will cost you time and money. The fact he was a mechanic doesn't enter into it, apart from nearly every mechanic I know drives a sh!t box, as it was a sale between 2 private parties. The only way you can get any come back was if the car was dangerous, burning oil and stretched chains aren't dangerous. Even if you get a result the likelihood of getting any joy out of it are slim.

If it was the company then you have legal protection under the Sale of Goods and Supply of Services Act. Again you will have to go legal, but have a better chance of getting something back.

mullingar

Unfortunately I'd say you have very little come back.

Under the Sale of Goods act any goods purchased through a shop/dealer etc must have a reasonable warranty (Private sales have zero warranty). The normal accepted warranty period is normally 3 months on a car that over a few years old (eg 5+ years old), so the fact you got a 4 month warranty on a 9 year old car would be considered very reasonable.

A timing chain could be easily argued that it is a wear and tear item.

My personal advise is just either repair it or flog it off.

corktina

i'd say most of the used cars for sale "privately" are for sale because something is wrong with them or going wrong. I don't think you are going to get very far here, sorry.

mullingar

Apocalypse wrote: »

.... the mechanic there rigged the computer up to it and said that the timing chain was stretched and it would need replacing.

Actually, I've never heard of this, the ECU would not monitor the chains tension at all. Normally the initial diagnosis of a stretched timing chain is hearing it rattle. You could be lucky that it could just be a tensioner that is faulty.

Ronnie Beck

mullingar wrote: »

Actually, I've never heard of this, the ECU would not monitor the chains tension at all. Normally the initial diagnosis of a stretched timing chain is hearing it rattle. You could be lucky that it could just be a tensioner that is faulty.

Could it not tell him the cam/cams and crank are out of sync? All seems a bit of a mess.


Unfortunate for the OP it seems like a live and learn situation.

Henry Ford III

mullingar wrote: »

...Under the Sale of Goods act any goods purchased through a shop/dealer etc must have a reasonable warranty (Private sales have zero warranty). The normal accepted warranty period is normally 3 months on a car that over a few years old (eg 5+ years old), so the fact you got a 4 month warranty on a 9 year old car would be considered very reasonable....

There is no automatic warranty under SOGA.

There is an element of consumer protection - "fit for purpose" and of "merchantable quality" and "as described" but there's no mention of 3 months anywhere.

Henry Ford III

http://www.nca.ie/index.jsp?p=133&n=177&a=349

Peanut2011

OP, i'm guessing you did not have bill of sale done on this either? Even if buying from private with proper bill of sale done and signed you could have some come back if you could prove he sold you a damaged car.

However it could be argued considering the time length you had it that the damage or issues you are experiencing are due to ware and tare since you got the car.

As long as the warranty is concerned, especially if this was a private sale, you have no legs to stand on. The best case scenario would be to try and reach a compromise with him, as it was mentioned.

However I personally would have an issue with that as if he was willing to flog you the car with those issues who is to say that even if he was to cover labour he would do a good job..

Best advice I can give you is take this one down as experience and move on. Maybe even try to have it traded in somewhere else if you can for some other car if you can afford.

Del2005

Peanut2011 wrote: »

OP, i'm guessing you did not have bill of sale done on this either? Even if buying from private with proper bill of sale done and signed you could have some come back if you could prove he sold you a damaged car.

However it could be argued considering the time length you had it that the damage or issues you are experiencing are due to ware and tare since you got the car.

IIRC the only rights you have with a private sale are if the car is sold in a dangerous condition, even that'd tough to prove after 4 months. As the NCA link from Henry Ford says

Private Sales
You do not have the same consumer rights if you are buying a car from a private seller. Generally, private sales do not come with a warranty so you should ask a mechanic to check the car before you buy it.

The mechanical issues which the OP has aren't dangerous and the seller is only required to answer questions not volunteer information, where as a dealer has to disclose all they know!

mullingar

Henry Ford III wrote: »

There is no automatic warranty under SOGA.

There is an element of consumer protection - "fit for purpose" and of "merchantable quality" and "as described" but there's no mention of 3 months anywhere.

Yes you are 100% right, there is no exact time-frame for a used car warranty covered under any Irish legislation, however dealers historically give at least 3 month warranty on used cars to ensure they follow the sale of goods act.

From your link to its attached quide:

The Sale of Goods Act also requires that all goods sold should be:
✽ Of merchantable quality (reasonable, acceptable quality given what was said about them and taking into account the age and history of the vehicle).
✽ Fit for the purpose they are intended to be used for.
✽ As described.

Therefore:
Selling a used car has to be of merchantable quality and be fit for purpose .
This to me is a limited warranty.

If a 4 year old car breaks down 2 weeks post sale, it can be easily argued that it was not of reasonable "merchantable quality" and was "not fit for purpose" as it broke down, therefore it is covered under the SOGA to be repaired by the seller.

If the same car broke down 8 months later, it would be easily argued that it is no longer covered under the SOGA legislation as it lasted longer that its expected "merchantable quality" and that it was "fit for purpose" as it lasted beyond any reasonable length of time before it broke down.

The SOGA legislatated protection is always separate from any dealer written warranty and will run in parallel.

Henry Ford III

mullingar wrote: »

Yes you are 100% right, there is no exact time-frame for a used car warranty covered under any Irish legislation, however dealers historically give at least 3 month warranty on used cars to ensure they follow the sale of goods act.

From your link to its attached quide:



Therefore:
Selling a used car has to be of merchantable quality and be fit for purpose .
This to me is a limited warranty.

If a 4 year old car breaks down 2 weeks post sale, it can be easily argued that it was not of reasonable "merchantable quality" and was "not fit for purpose" as it broke down, therefore it is covered under the SOGA to be repaired by the seller.

If the same car broke down 8 months later, it would be easily argued that it is no longer covered under the SOGA legislation as it lasted longer that its expected "merchantable quality" and that it was "fit for purpose" as it lasted beyond any reasonable length of time before it broke down.

The SOGA legislatated protection is always separate from any dealer written warranty and will run in parallel.

Dealers do not always give a 3 month warranty, and they have no obligation do so under SOGA. This applies to low value cars particularly.

You are making an interpretation of the SOGA, and it's flawed in my opinion.

mullingar

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Dealers do not always give a 3 month warranty, and they have no obligation do so under SOGA. This applies to low value cars particularly.

You are making an interpretation of the SOGA, and it's flawed in my opinion.

I agree that they might not have an obligation to give a fixed period warranty, but the SOGA will always apply.

In your opinion, acknowledging the legal requirements of the SOGA,the "merchantable quality" and "fit for purpose" stuff, what would you deem the time/mileage limit of a 4 year old car that say, a gearbox failed?

Henry Ford III

mullingar wrote: »

I agree that they might not have an obligation to give a fixed period warranty, but the SOGA will always apply.

In your opinion, acknowledging the legal requirements of the SOGA,the "merchantable quality" and "fit for purpose" stuff, what would you deem the time/mileage limit of a 4 year old car that say, a gearbox failed?

Genuinely I've no idea, but would guess that a useful life might be maybe c.150,000 miles. Some boxes last decades (I've a 33 year old car still on it's original box) and others don't (VW Golfs for example).

Most Irish cars have no verfiable history, so it may be a moot point.

mullingar

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Genuinely I've no idea, but would guess that a useful life might be maybe c.150,000 miles. Some boxes last decades (I've a 33 year old car still on it's original box) and others don't (VW Golfs for example).

+1, Just like me, you would expect the average gearbox to last well over 100k miles as it is naturally expected to do so.

So for the example, say, a Ford Focus, 4 years old, with say 50k miles. If the gearbox failed after 2 months post-sale, the gearbox would have to be declared that it was not "merchantable quality" and also not "fit for purpose" so there are definite grounds to argue that it would have to be repaired under the SOGA if the dealer was refusing to.

listermint

So in essence the tensioner could just need to be done ?

and you dont know ?

Del2005

mullingar wrote: »

I agree that they might not have an obligation to give a fixed period warranty, but the SOGA will always apply.

In your opinion, acknowledging the legal requirements of the SOGA,the "merchantable quality" and "fit for purpose" stuff, what would you deem the time/mileage limit of a 4 year old car that say, a gearbox failed?

The good thing about the SOGA is that it isn't the dealer or us that define the limit, it's the courts.

The act is for the protection of the consumer and depends on how much you've paid for the item. So if a gearbox fails after 4 months you can argue that it shouldn't as it's an expensive part and that there may have been an underlying issue to cause the failure after 4 months, since the majority of gearboxes on 2nd hand cars don't fail in 4 months.

listermint

Arent we all jumping ahead alot ?

Youve said youve brought the car to a garage a work colleague uses and they diagnosed something for you? Are they a BMW specialist, did they use BMW Diagnostics to give you this verdict?

There is a garage a work colleague of mine used for her Audi TT, I wouldnt send the school bully to them.

Get the car looked at by someone who is a BMW specialist and has the proper equipment before jumping the gun with all this legal advice being thrown out here.

Oh and as for the gunk around the oil gap, the mechanic has his head up his arse. These engines run at very high temp and pressure, white gunk on the E46 is as common as muck and can be attributed to moisture.

Get an expert.

mullingar

Del2005 wrote: »

The good thing about the SOGA is that it isn't the dealer or us that define the limit, it's the courts.

The act is for the protection of the consumer and depends on how much you've paid for the item. So if a gearbox fails after 4 months you can argue that it shouldn't as it's an expensive part and that there may have been an underlying issue to cause the failure after 4 months, since the majority of gearboxes on 2nd hand cars don't fail in 4 months.

+1000.

And apologies for taking thread a bit OT!



@ OP, get it properly diagnosed before you make any decision on what to do next as it will have to come out of your pocket and not the original sellers.

Henry Ford III

Del2005 wrote: »

The good thing about the SOGA is that it isn't the dealer or us that define the limit, it's the courts.

The act is for the protection of the consumer and depends on how much you've paid for the item. So if a gearbox fails after 4 months you can argue that it shouldn't as it's an expensive part and that there may have been an underlying issue to cause the failure after 4 months, since the majority of gearboxes on 2nd hand cars don't fail in 4 months.

Unless it's a cheap Golf obviously

Henry Ford III

mullingar wrote: »

+1, Just like me, you would expect the average gearbox to last well over 100k miles as it is naturally expected to do so.

So for the example, say, a Ford Focus, 4 years old, with say 50k miles. If the gearbox failed after 2 months post-sale, the gearbox would have to be declared that it was not "merchantable quality" and also not "fit for purpose" so there are definite grounds to argue that it would have to be repaired under the SOGA if the dealer was refusing to.

It'd be declared nothing only broken. If it was outside of engine/box warranty it'd be (subject to SOGA) tough luck.

As someone else rightly said ultimately it's for the courts to decide, but to assume the same level of consumer protection should apply to any car, regardless of age, mileage, and price is a fallacy.

mullingar

I agree, its madness to expect the same exact warranty on a 4 year old car compared to a 10 year old ex-taxi with inter-galactic mileage.

The whole point of the SOGA is that it offers some sort of cover of the reasonable expectation of the car.

You would not expect a 4 year old car to have any "significant" faults within, say, 6 months of ownership. But you would expect a 10 year old ex-taxi inter-galactic mileage to have a significant fault in the very near future (and yes, I know there are exceptions to this!)

Henry Ford III

mullingar wrote: »

I agree, its madness to expect the same exact warranty on a 4 year old car compared to a 10 year old ex-taxi with inter-galactic mileage.

The whole point of the SOGA is that it offers some sort of cover of the reasonable expectation of the car.

You would not expect a 4 year old car to have any "significant" faults within, say, 6 months of ownership. But you would expect a 10 year old ex-taxi inter-galactic mileage to have a significant fault in the very near future (and yes, I know there are exceptions to this!)

A 4 year old car might easily have 200,000 miles covered from new though. It could be essentially at the end of it's useful life.

If someone bought such a car cheaply would the SOGA reasonably provide much/any protection?

Del2005

listermint wrote: »

Arent we all jumping ahead alot ?

Yes, the OP appears to have bought privately, so all the SOGA posts are irrelevant

lifer_sean

Del2005 wrote: »

Yes, the OP appears to have bought privately, so all the SOGA posts are irrelevant

@op, was the car the mechanic's own car (ie his daily driver), or one he was selling "on the side"? Was his name in the tax book as the previous owner ?

If it was his own car then it's most likely a private sale and you are on your own.

To be fair, anything on here is only speculation. Only a solicitor can give you proper advice, and only after you tell them the full story.