Ireland a Modern Liberal Democracy?

Ninja_Nick

Hi all,
Just wondering if you all would be able to help me out?
Im in my 3rd year at college and have to do an essay for an elective. The title I was given was to argue that Ireland is not a liberal democracy. To be honest Im very confused and havent a clue where to start.
Any help would be greatly appreciated. Id be forever indebted!

sligotrain

Ninja_Nick wrote: »

Hi all,
Just wondering if you all would be able to help me out?
Im in my 3rd year at college and have to do an essay for an elective. The title I was given was to argue that Ireland is not a liberal democracy. To be honest Im very confused and havent a clue where to start.
Any help would be greatly appreciated. Id be forever indebted!

All you have to do is write three words:

Dead pregnant woman.

Duggys Housemate

Dead pregnant woman.

Where upon he would fail. Of course it is.

I suppose you could argue from a civil liberties and human rights perspective: the unavailability of gay marriage, the inaccessibility of abortion, how mothers are favoured over fathers, the influence of the Catholic Church on the Irish school system (the Church operates over 90% of primary schools), and so on.

Scofflaw

While the forum is not a homework club, it's an interesting question in its own right.

You could start from the Wiki definition:

Liberal democracy is a form of government in which representative democracy operates under the principles of liberalism. It is characterized by fair, free, and competitive elections between multiple distinct political parties, a separation of powers into different branches of government, the rule of law in everyday life as part of an open society, and the protection of human rights and civil liberties for all persons.

There's a couple of angles of attack there - the most obvious, currently, is the question of whether Ireland really offers "the protection of human rights and civil liberties for all persons", where you could take the angle that the failure to protect the (rather basic) right to life of a pregnant woman is a major failing.

For my own money, though, that's at best a hyperbolic argument. A failing in one part of protecting human rights, however pernicious, doesn't mean that the state fails to qualify as a liberal democracy, particularly when the perceived failing is due to other competing protected rights. It's obvious the state is not generally deficient in rights protection.

I would go, myself, for the ways in which Ireland fails on the separation of powers and adequate controls over its government. We don't have any meaningful accountability of the executive to the legislature, and we have recently allowed the executive the power to affect the judiciary through wage-setting, although we rejected the assumption of quasi-judicial powers by the Dáil through the Oireachtas Inquiries referendum - given the capture of the Dáil by the government, that would effectively have given the government quasi-judicial powers.

I would include as a serious issue that the majority of the public probably don't even recognise this as being an issue.

It might also be worth pointing out the systems of clientilism that reduce much of our agency and quango sector to sinecures for political supporters and family, and the fact that the nature of partisan voting in many constituencies, particularly rural areas, means that there is not only no accountability for a Minister as a member of government to the Dáil, but not really any to the wider electorate as long as the Minister makes an effort to spread pork to his/her constituency.

I don't think one can really successfully argue that Ireland isn't a liberal democracy, though, but I think one can argue that it isn't necessarily a terribly good one, or a "modern" one in the sense of a fully open political system with a fully liberal social/rights/legal environment. Politically, we're surprisingly similar to the Georgian era political system in the UK (bar the franchise issue), which is hardly modern.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Duggys Housemate

gvn wrote: »

I suppose you could argue from a civil liberties and human rights perspective: the unavailability of gay marriage, the inaccessibility of abortion, how mothers are favoured over fathers, the influence of the Catholic Church on the Irish school system (the Church operates over 90% of primary schools), and so on.

If the unavailability of gay marriage makes countries non-democratic, we have just reached democracy anywhere, in the last few years.

The title does not say "modern liberal democracy" so no weasel room there; nor is it enough to pick your pet peeve and declare that not having that ( secular schools, fathers rights) precludes the country as a democracy. These things are a debate within democracies. There are democracies with Established Churches, there is one next door, for instance. And few existing democracies would favor, or give equal treatment, to fathers.

Votes, rule of law, separate judiciary, non-corrupt civil service and police. Ireland is a democracy, and has been since independence.

Duggys Housemate

Scofflaw, you are excluding most parliamentary democracies from your definition.

Skrynesaver

There is an interesting argument to be made that the apparatus of the Irish state has been captured by a small coterie of interconnected individuals of privileged background and that the state has been run as an effective kleptocracy by them with the Dáil being a distraction for those in the cheap seats.

Alternatively take a poke at the failure to yet become a liberal democracy and the absence of true equality of rights, responsibilities and opportunities...

Duggys Housemate

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

If the unavailability of gay marriage makes countries non-democratic, we have just reached democracy anywhere, in the last few years.

The title does not say "modern liberal democracy" so no weasel room there; nor is it enough to pick your pet peeve and declare that not having that ( secular schools, fathers rights) precludes the country as a democracy. These things are a debate within democracies. There are democracies with Established Churches, there is one next door, for instance. And few existing democracies would favor, or give equal treatment, to fathers.

Votes, rule of law, separate judiciary, non-corrupt civil service and police. Ireland is a democracy, and has been since independence.

I agree, but if the OP has to argue against the proposition that Ireland is a liberal democracy, failing to argue against that proposition will likely result in a fail — he/she has to pick some element of the definition of a liberal democracy, which Ireland fails in relation to, and use that as the basis for his/her argument. As Scofflaw points out, the definition of a liberal democracy is quite broad and encompassing, so focusing on the civil liberties and human rights elements of the definition would seem to be the way to go. There's little point arguing that Ireland isn't democratic, and so on, but there are civil liberties issues, such as the ones I mentioned previously, with which a good argument could be made.

Gurgle

Scofflaw wrote: »

I don't think one can really successfully argue that Ireland isn't a liberal democracy, though, but I think one can argue that it isn't necessarily a terribly good one, or a "modern" one in the sense of a fully open political system with a fully liberal social/rights/legal environment.

I know its down to semantics, but if we fail on the 'modern' point then which country is the benchmark?

('Good' isn't part of the question)

Also, I'd say we're more a conservative or moderate democracy than a liberal one. But that's largely a question of point of view, my fantasy Utopia is a lot more liberal than modern Ireland.

FloatingVoter

I'd bring in time - Ireland in the 1920s-1950s was bordering on a theocracy.
Right now, we're far more liberal than Texas apart from the emotive issue of abortion. But a country where a gay man can have sex with his boyfriend, go home to his lesbian wife while buying condoms on the way is pretty liberal.
You also get to stay home in bed while you choose not to vote in a referendum.

Scofflaw

Gurgle wrote: »

I know its down to semantics, but if we fail on the 'modern' point then which country is the benchmark?

('Good' isn't part of the question)

Probably the Scandinavian countries if I had to pick an existing country as a benchmark. However, it's possible to benchmark any democracy against a perfect theoretical separation of powers - we'd fail badly there, and the way in which we'd fail has a distinctly historical flavour to it. A read around Georgian-era politics paints an uncomfortably good portrait of our system, barring the existence of a monarch.

Gurgle wrote: »

Also, I'd say we're more a conservative or moderate democracy than a liberal one. But that's largely a question of point of view, my fantasy Utopia is a lot more liberal than modern Ireland.

I'd really have to say "see gvn's argument" regarding the question of whether we're a liberal democracy - as you say, "moderate" or "conservative" seems to fit the bill somewhat better. Probably the best way to look at "liberal" is to consider it as prioritising the rights of the individual above all others, and we certainly don't entirely fit that bill - we've just had a referendum to make it possible for the children to be adopted out of a family, something our Constitution previously prevented because of its very strong emphasis on the sanctity of the family, which is a corporate entity with its (Irish) roots in religious belief.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Duggys Housemate

Not really. The full definition of liberal democracy on wiki is:


Liberal democracy is a form of government in which representative democracy operates under the principles of liberalism. It is characterized by fair, free, and competitive elections between multiple distinct political parties, a separation of powers into different branches of government, the rule of law in everyday life as part of an open society, and the protection of human rights and civil liberties for all persons. To define the system in practice, liberal democracies often draw upon a constitution, either formally written or uncodified, to delineate the powers of government and enshrine the social contract. After a period of sustained expansion throughout the 20th century, liberal democracy became the predominant political system on Earth.


So nothing about modern version of rights - i.e homosexual rights to marry etc. Or even abortion. Nothing puts Ireland into the non-liberal camp in that definition, in fact it clearly has always been in that camp. The rest is people's opinions on theoretical perfect societies, or liberal ( in the sense of left wing or libertarian) liberal democracies.

Here is the wiki map on the democracies of the world.

which doesn't help the op, I realize.

Gurgle

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

doesn't help the op, I realize.

Unfortunately for the OP, he has to argue a case that isn't backed up by any of the metrics.

Failed state index
Human development index
Press freedom index
Democracy index

Death and Taxes

Scofflaw wrote: »

While the forum is not a homework club, it's an interesting question in its own right.

You could start from the Wiki definition:



There's a couple of angles of attack there - the most obvious, currently, is the question of whether Ireland really offers "the protection of human rights and civil liberties for all persons", where you could take the angle that the failure to protect the (rather basic) right to life of a pregnant woman is a major failing.

For my own money, though, that's at best a hyperbolic argument. A failing in one part of protecting human rights, however pernicious, doesn't mean that the state fails to qualify as a liberal democracy, particularly when the perceived failing is due to other competing protected rights. It's obvious the state is not generally deficient in rights protection.

I would go, myself, for the ways in which Ireland fails on the separation of powers and adequate controls over its government. We don't have any meaningful accountability of the executive to the legislature, and we have recently allowed the executive the power to affect the judiciary through wage-setting, although we rejected the assumption of quasi-judicial powers by the Dáil through the Oireachtas Inquiries referendum - given the capture of the Dáil by the government, that would effectively have given the government quasi-judicial powers.

I would include as a serious issue that the majority of the public probably don't even recognise this as being an issue.

It might also be worth pointing out the systems of clientilism that reduce much of our agency and quango sector to sinecures for political supporters and family, and the fact that the nature of partisan voting in many constituencies, particularly rural areas, means that there is not only no accountability for a Minister as a member of government to the Dáil, but not really any to the wider electorate as long as the Minister makes an effort to spread pork to his/her constituency.

I don't think one can really successfully argue that Ireland isn't a liberal democracy, though, but I think one can argue that it isn't necessarily a terribly good one, or a "modern" one in the sense of a fully open political system with a fully liberal social/rights/legal environment. Politically, we're surprisingly similar to the Georgian era political system in the UK (bar the franchise issue), which is hardly modern.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Excellent post.
You might also look at the ways in which the apparent seperation of powers may be affected by the manner in which Judicial appoints are made, perhaps explore the number of ex politicans , ex political activists and their families appear to end up on the bench of the High Court and Supreme Court.
I can name Judges on both of these benches that are either ex TD's or ex high powered political activists for political parties.
Bearing in mind that both general constitutional challenges, and Article 26 express Judicial Review of legislation ends up before these courts it might make an interesting discussion in your essay.

booom

Some very good points raised so far. however, i can't help but think of the initial post- what the feck have you been doing in college for three years that you ended up confused and without a clue about the topic? why did you pick an elective you obviously had interest in but then no previous interest/knowledge? going to sound like some angry old man here but when i went to college at 39 years of age, (couldn't afford it when I left school, had to pay for it then, still ended up paying as a mature student) i was the muggins down the front of the lecture hall cos if i sat anywhere else i couldn't hear what was being said on the podium for all the nattering, facebook exclamations, amorous overtures and party planning being made by excited teenagers. Rant over. OP may infact be a mature student- only just thought of that.

Gurgle

booom wrote: »

what the feck have you been doing in college for three years that you ended up confused and without a clue about the topic?

This is an assigned debate topic in an elective subject - the OP could be studying astrophysics for all we know.

booom

'elective' implies there was a choice as to what topics to choose from

-apologies for going off thread.

Eggy Baby!

Scofflaw wrote: »

I don't think one can really successfully argue that Ireland isn't a liberal democracy, though, but I think one can argue that it isn't necessarily a terribly good one, or a "modern" one in the sense of a fully open political system with a fully liberal social/rights/legal environment. Politically, we're surprisingly similar to the Georgian era political system in the UK (bar the franchise issue), which is hardly modern.

cordially,
Scofflaw

So its a liberal democracy, just not a modern one?



I would like to pitch in my legal knowledge on this too I guess.

One of the components of a liberal democracy is a fair judiciary. While Ireland's justice system is quite liberal and quite fair, there are a number of measures which make it aspire more to the "crime control" ideology of justice. That is, there are so many cases and so much crime that to offer everyone equal rights under the law is unfeasible and would allow too many criminals to get away with their crimes.

Observe the CAB. It can seize the property of suspected criminals rather than proven criminals. While justifiable in a sense, it sets a dangerous precedent for a liberal democracy.

But Ireland largely fulfills most criteria for liberalism.

Secondly, Ireland is a representative democracy, which isn't a pure democracy. It is a "liberal representative democracy". Ireland is as far from pure democracy as the Soviets were from pure socialism, unfortunately.

I suppose you could argue from a civil liberties and human rights perspective: the unavailability of gay marriage, the inaccessibility of abortion, how mothers are favoured over fathers, the influence of the Catholic Church on the Irish school system (the Church operates over 90% of primary schools), and so on.

Thirdly, many people (myself NOT included) would disagree that allowing homosexual union would result in modernity. Many people would (myself INCLUDED) also disagree that allowing abortion leads to modernity in society. Nor does the availability of both lead to liberalism. I would also like sourced examples for the bolded part, if you could? Thanks.

The Church operates so many schools due to tradition and its not really illiberal. Does following tradition not make a country modern or what?