NTA: New Urlingford - Portlaoise bus service with M&A Coaches

monument

Press release from the NTA:

National Transport Authority enters new contract for Urlingford - Portlaoise service with M & A Coaches

First new contract issued by Authority since its establishment
November 19th, 2012

The National Transport Authority is pleased to announce the launch of a new bus service between Urlingford and Portlaoise. The service starts today (November 19, 2012) as Route number 828. It is operated by M&A Coaches of Ballyraggett, Co.Kilkenny, who won the Public Transport Services Contract with the Authority following a tender competition.

This Contract marks the first new contract entered into by the Authority since its establishment on December 1, 2009. The Authority has previously entered into direct award public service obligation (PSO) contracts with Bus Éireann, Dublin Bus and Irish Rail for the provision of socially necessary but commercially unviable public transport services.

The new service provides two round trips every day between Urlingford and Portlaoise via Johnstown, Cullahill, Durrow, and Abbeyleix and serves Portlaise train station and Portlaoise Hospital as well as Laois Shopping Centre. Onward public transport connections are available in Portlaiose towards Newbridge, Naas, Dublin Airport and Dublin City. Connections are also available at Urlingford for journeys towards Cashel, Cahir and Cork City.

“This new service is being introduced following commercial decisions by both Aircoach and Bus Éireann to withdraw services from the intermediate towns and villages between Urlingford and Portlaoise. We identified that it was essential for these communities to continue to have public transport services available and are very pleased that M&A Coaches has commenced this new service today”, said Gerry Murphy, CEO of the National Transport Authority.

ENDS

Full details of the new service are available from M&A Coaches at www.mandacoaches.com

L1011

Where are the route numbers coming from? Are we finally getting a unified nationwide system? 828 is very high/odd to be an operator code

Victor

MYOB wrote: »

Where are the route numbers coming from? Are we finally getting a unified nationwide system? 828 is very high/odd to be an operator code

Gradually things are being aligned, e.g. in Galway, City Direct's route numbers are a continuation of the BÉ numbers.

foggy_lad

http://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/National-Transport-Authority-enters-new-contract-for-Urlingford-Portlaoise-service-with-M-A-Coaches-.pdf

This Contract marks the first new contract entered into by the Authority since its establishment on
December 1, 2009. The Authority has previously entered into direct award public service obligation
(PSO) contracts with Bus Éireann, Dublin Bus and Irish Rail for the provision of socially necessary but
commercially unviable public transport services.

This is not a public service obligation contract, so why are they even mentioning the PSO contracts when what they have done is to replace the previous Bus Éireann services on which free travel was accepted with this fully commercial service which charges all passengers including those with free travel?

“This new service is being introduced following commercial decisions by both Aircoach and Bus
Éireann to withdraw services from the intermediate towns and villages between Urlingford and
Portlaoise. We identified that it was essential for these communities to continue to have public
transport services available and are very pleased that M&A Coaches has commenced this new
service today”, said Gerry Murphy, CEO of the National Transport Authority.

If it is so essential for these communities to have public transport services available surely they should be provided under a PSO contract!

LXFlyer

Dramatically poorer frequency than Bus Eireann offered.

Down from 6 services each way to 2, together with starting later and finishing later.

But sure things will always be better with a private operator according to many posters here!! Be careful what you wish for!

monument

lxflyer wrote: »

Dramatically poorer frequency than Bus Eireann offered.

Down from 6 services each way to 2, together with starting later and finishing later.

But sure things will always be better with a private operator according to many posters here!! Be careful what you wish for!

Surely better than withdrawn service (ie nothing)?

foggy_lad

monument wrote: »

Surely better than withdrawn service (ie nothing)?

For those who can afford the €12 each way fare yes it is better, but there are many who are not in a position to afford even the reduced fares being offered to free travel pass holders by the service operator M&A coaches, who are to be commended for offering concession fares for some passsengers.
http://www.mandacoaches.com/Routes.html

markpb

lxflyer wrote: »

Dramatically poorer frequency than Bus Eireann offered.

Down from 6 services each way to 2, together with starting later and finishing later.

But sure things will always be better with a private operator according to many posters here!! Be careful what you wish for!

If BE withdrew their service, surely the new service is vastly better than the zero service alternative?

AlekSmart

foggy_lad wrote: »

For those who can afford the €12 each way fare yes it is better, but there are many who are not in a position to afford even the reduced fares being offered to free travel pass holders by the service operator M&A coaches, who are to be commended for offering concession fares for some passsengers.
http://www.mandacoaches.com/Routes.html

I believe it's quite an auspicious occasion and marks a turning-point in Irish Public Transport provision.

There are quite a few unknowns about this,but since the actual terms of the Contract are not (as yet) in the public domain one can only speculate.

It appears interesting that any notion of complying with the Accessibility requirements of the Equal Status Act 2000 no longer apply as the vehicles seem to be standard height midi bus or coach style.

The acceptance of the DSP Free Travel Pass on a concessionary-fare only basis,is also,I feel,a sign of things to come very soon indeed.

We do not,as yet,know whether M&A are funding the DSP concession themselves or whether the NTA are subsidising M&A to offer the concession,either way the DSP's position on Free Travel Scheme funding being frozen at 2010 levels remains.

I suspect that the mantra of Commercially Sensitive Information will be invoked before long in response to questioning about the terms of the contract.

I would also be interested to know just how many expressions of interest the NTA recieved for this route as, from what I can deduce,there was no need to barricade the doors against the rush of applicants....

Still a momentous day all round ??

paddyland

lxflyer wrote: »

Dramatically poorer frequency than Bus Eireann offered.

Down from 6 services each way to 2, together with starting later and finishing later.

But sure things will always be better with a private operator according to many posters here!! Be careful what you wish for!

Who pays for a more regular service if the takings on the door don't cover it?

LXFlyer

Eh, that's been my point all along on this board, but several posters don't seem to see it that way.

LXFlyer

AlekSmart wrote: »

I believe it's quite an auspicious occasion and marks a turning-point in Irish Public Transport provision.

There are quite a few unknowns about this,but since the actual terms of the Contract are not (as yet) in the public domain one can only speculate.

It appears interesting that any notion of complying with the Accessibility requirements of the Equal Status Act 2000 no longer apply as the vehicles seem to be standard height midi bus or coach style.

The acceptance of the DSP Free Travel Pass on a concessionary-fare only basis,is also,I feel,a sign of things to come very soon indeed.

We do not,as yet,know whether M&A are funding the DSP concession themselves or whether the NTA are subsidising M&A to offer the concession,either way the DSP's position on Free Travel Scheme funding being frozen at 2010 levels remains.

I suspect that the mantra of Commercially Sensitive Information will be invoked before long in response to questioning about the terms of the contract.

I would also be interested to know just how many expressions of interest the NTA recieved for this route as, from what I can deduce,there was no need to barricade the doors against the rush of applicants....

Still a momentous day all round ??

The contract is in the public domain and is here:
http://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Contract-NTA-MA-Coaches.pdf

paddyland

lxflyer wrote: »

Eh, that's been my point all along on this board, but several posters don't seem to see it that way.

But are you suggesting the taxpayer should subsidise Bus Éireann to provide it? Is the patronage there to pay for six journeys a day, or whatever it used to be? I doubt it.

dowlingm

I wonder how many people commute in every morning from Abbeyleix/Durrow would take a reasonably priced feeder bus to Portlaoise to pick up the train?

markpb

lxflyer wrote: »

The contract is in the public domain and is here:
http://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Contract-NTA-MA-Coaches.pdf

Thanks for that. It's Interesting to see
- they let the operator keep the fares (less a retention percentage) instead of paying them a set fee and retaining all the fares themselves
- don't require integrated ticketing with bus Eireann or Irish Rail.

Not offering integrated fares with IR on a route serving a train station seems poor.

AlekSmart

lxflyer wrote: »

The contract is in the public domain and is here:
http://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Contract-NTA-MA-Coaches.pdf

Thanks LX,but I'm more interested in the € figures,particularly the DSP related elements.

Equally I find it odd that some 12 years after the introduction of Disabled Access leglislation the NTA can omit such a requirement from a service contract....I tend to see this as a failure to grasp an opportunity to be pro-active on these issues .

BenShermin

Fantastic lesson here on how not to provide rural transport in Ireland. When BÉ ran the 008 service one could buy a ticket on the bus in Durrow for anywhere on the 008 route. Now you have to buy two tickets if you want to get from Durrow to Dublin. Why didn't the NTA demand integrated ticketing between BÉ and M&A??? All is okay though, the service has a number:rolleyes:!

Ireland is so small that we should at this stage have fully integrated fares for all rail and bus operations. I can walk into Kent Station Cork tomorrow morning and get a ticket straight through to London Euston for immediate travel, one ticket for travel with four different companies over two different countries!! Yet the same IÉ staff would look at me as if I'd ten heads on me if I asked for a single to Abbeyliex via Portlaoise railway station and M&A coaches. It's beyond a joke.

foggy_lad

AlekSmart wrote: »

Thanks LX,but I'm more interested in the € figures,particularly the DSP related elements.

Equally I find it odd that some 12 years after the introduction of Disabled Access leglislation the NTA can omit such a requirement from a service contract....I tend to see this as a failure to grasp an opportunity to be pro-active on these issues .

From reading the contract there is no payments to the company not even if they don't get any passengers. They are not entitled to any payments and have no claim apart from whatever they make on the service themselves. So much for being required to have a large notice on the front of the bus stating the service is provided by m&a coaches on behalf of the nta.

AlekSmart

foggy_lad wrote: »

From reading the contract there is no payments to the company not even if they don't get any passengers. They are not entitled to any payments and have no claim apart from whatever they make on the service themselves. So much for being required to have a large notice on the front of the bus stating the service is provided by m&a coaches on behalf of the nta.

Indeed Foggy,I'm not so sure that the Contract Document,as available on the NTA site,is any more than the legally required amount of such info.

Unless M&A Coaches have been granted Charity Status I would be confident that some form of remuneration is part of the contract....?

If not then we most certainly are looking at the return of the "Irish answer to an Irish problem" scenario ?

foggy_lad

AlekSmart wrote: »

Indeed Foggy,I'm not so sure that the Contract Document,as available on the NTA site,is any more than the legally required amount of such info.

Unless M&A Coaches have been granted Charity Status I would be confident that some form of remuneration is part of the contract....?

If not then we most certainly are looking at the return of the "Irish answer to an Irish problem" scenario ?

Have you evidence of them receiving remuneration apart from the fares? There is enough evidence in the legally binding contract signed and dated by both parties that no other remuneration is payable and also no claims may be entered for any losses arising out of operating the service.

LXFlyer

I don't think any new services/operators are being funded by the DSP.

Our man in Havana

The fare levels are crazy. €12 for a single, no mention of return fares either. €24 for a round trip is crazy.

Conway635

Our man in Havana wrote: »

The fare levels are crazy. €12 for a single, no mention of return fares either. €24 for a round trip is crazy.

If I were a cynic, I would say it is almost as if it is being set up to fail, so that the NTA can then say "no demand" and quietly walk away . . .

C635

munchkin_utd

just for reference before the timetable disapears, the forerunner to this service number 128 ran 5 times a day monday to Sunday
0920 1120 1320 1520 1720 1920 leaving Portlaoise
and 0840 1040 1240 1440 1625 1840 leaving Johnstown
taking a half hour for the journey.

LXFlyer

Presumably that is what needs to be charged to cover costs and deliver a profit to the operator.

Remember - it's not subsidised.

AlekSmart

lxflyer wrote: »

I don't think any new services/operators are being funded by the DSP.

Indeed LX,but Im curious as to what (or who) funds the 50% discount for DSP customers...or is there some new form of DSP scheme now in place to replace the FREE Travel Scheme countrywide ?

As Foggy_Lad points out,the legally binding contract appears to point to no actual money changing hands at all

Our man in Havana

It will promptly die in that case. No one will pay €24 for a round trip.

LXFlyer

Welcome to the new world where the state is shifting the cost of providing public services onto the end user rather than raising taxes (and I'm applying that as a general comment).

I think you're being selectivd though. I'd question how many people would travel Urlingford/Portlaoise on it when BE provide a far more comprehensive services between those points. Most people will only be travelling between intermediate points and Portlaoise.

For the record BE fares are €11.80 single and €16 return.

LXFlyer

AlekSmart wrote: »

Indeed LX,but Im curious as to what (or who) funds the 50% discount for DSP customers...or is there some new form of DSP scheme now in place to replace the FREE Travel Scheme countrywide ?

As Foggy_Lad points out,the legally binding contract appears to point to no actual money changing hands at all

Again Alek I assume its being borne by the operator.

road_high

Our man in Havana wrote: »

It will promptly die in that case. No one will pay €24 for a round trip.

€24 for Urlingford to Portlaoise? Fcuking hell, what's that like 40KM or so? Christ I can get to Dublin and back for less from Kilkenny, they're off their trollies.

foggy_lad

I heard a rumour that this service is being stopped soon because of poor passenger numbers. Anyone else hear this?

devnull

road_high wrote: »

€24 for Urlingford to Portlaoise? Fcuking hell, what's that like 40KM or so? Christ I can get to Dublin and back for less from Kilkenny, they're off their trollies.

What bus do you get? It may be subsdised? This service is not.

monument

Play the ball and not the man or risk getting banned.

Please back on topic now and DO NOT REPLY TO THIS POST -- you will be banned if you do.

road_high

devnull wrote: »

What bus do you get? It may be subsdised? This service is not.

Does it matter what bus I get? JJ Kavanagh do the run for €16 return...115km vs 40 km for €24. Even the train is only €27.50 online KK-Dublin. That's just one example...
This service is madly overpriced in comparison to any routes subsidised or not. No surprise whatsoever to see it dropped potentially.

Victor

foggy_lad wrote: »

I heard a rumour that this service is being stopped soon because of poor passenger numbers. Anyone else hear this?

Any basis for this?

foggy_lad

Victor wrote: »

Any basis for this?

Just a rumour heard from a driver on another private bus. Prices have been reduced slightly from the original fares at start-up.

Also a Google search brought up this discussion on another furum http://irishtransport.yuku.com/topic/4717/New-Private-Urlingford-Portlaoise-service

It seems that subvention may be restored for this route but will it be worth any company's time servicing the route?

LXFlyer

From the Oireachtas committee on Public Accounts:
http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/Debates%20Authoring/DebatesWebPack.nsf/committeetakes/ACC2013012400012?opendocument

Deputy Sean Fleming: The NTA gives a figure of €265 million paid to Iarnród Éireann, Dublin Bus and Bus Éireann in public service obligation. Is any of that available to private operators or is it confined to CIE group companies?

Mr. Gerry Murphy: The concept is that if subsidies are available for public transport they can go to whomever one has a contract with so they could go to other companies. The reality, however, is that the money is needed for the services the CIE companies currently provide. Last year we tendered the Durrow service which the Deputy mentioned, on the basis that the operator would contract with us on the basis of the fares revenue. The operator advises us now that he cannot survive on that basis and that he will pull out in February. We will advertise that contract again and there will be a subsidy included in that tender competition.

Deputy Sean Fleming: That is excellent news for us in Laois and for the Roscommon people I heard on "Morning Ireland", and all over the country. Does the NTA have much of a fund for this? Rural communities would love to hear the news this morning that there is a PSO subsidy for some of these new routes. Is this new?

Mr. Gerry Murphy: Yes it is new. This is the first time we have done this. It is a modest sum and we could not replicate it across the country. We are doing it on this service because we regard these as significant towns.

Deputy Sean Fleming: The strength of the representations did this.

Mr. Gerry Murphy: The representations were strong but also the points were well made.

AlekSmart

An interesting debate indeed,but also revealing a somewhat disjointed policy....

Deputy Sean Fleming: Information on Sean Fleming Zoom on Sean Fleming That is excellent news for us in Laois and for the Roscommon people I heard on "Morning Ireland", and all over the country. Does the NTA have much of a fund for this? Rural communities would love to hear the news this morning that there is a PSO subsidy for some of these new routes. Is this new?

Mr. Gerry Murphy: Yes it is new. This is the first time we have done this. It is a modest sum and we could not replicate it across the country. We are doing it on this service because we regard these as significant towns.

Deputy Sean Fleming: Information on Sean Fleming Zoom on Sean Fleming The strength of the representations did this.

Mr. Gerry Murphy: The representations were strong but also the points were well made.

The origins of the NATIONAL Transport Authority,as opposed to the DUBLIN Transport Authority are,by now,well known.

At the time of the original metamorphisis,some people wondered aloud as to whether the two aspects were entirely compatible.

Now we have the CEO of the NTA openly stating that it is unable to operate this significant Public Transport Policy element Nationally,save for in "Significant Towns".

Oh dear...are we now to have a long and fruitful exchange on the definition of a "Significant Town" in much the same vein as the old "Travel Club" arguement of the 1970's.

I'm afraid that this latest revelation,as with the ongoing Leapcard scenario,continues to underline our National reluctance to see the term AUTHORITY as being of actual substance.

parsi

If there is a subsidy (albeit a small modest one) does that in itself open the door to the use of golden tickets on the service as it is now not solely being funded by the fare box ?

I also agree with the point above - on what basis does the NTA decide on the significance of towns ? Will it be based on closeness to the Pale ? Natural catchment areas ? Socio-economic factors ?

ThreeLineWhip

I can confirm that golden tickets are not accepted on this route.

Victor

DSP Free Travel Pass holders are entitled to a 50% discount.

http://www.mandacoaches.com/Routes.html

parsi

Victor wrote: »

DSP Free Travel Pass holders are entitled to a 50% discount.

http://www.mandacoaches.com/Routes.html

However my point was whether the payment of a subsidy by the State will obligate full free travel for golden passes and at who's cost ?

AlekSmart

parsi wrote: »

However my point was whether the payment of a subsidy by the State will obligate full free travel for golden passes and at who's cost ?

It's an interesting point Parsi,and one which the various parties are dancing around as if it were a pair of handbags on Tamango's floor.

Given the non-statutory nature of the entire Free Travel Scheme,and the freezing of it's budget at 2010 levels it's apparent that something's gotta give,and soon.

With actual Passholders now approaching 750,000 and total entitlement to Free Travel c.1.3 Million,the figures are not adding up.

The sheer number of new DSP passes now being presented by NON OAP holders is something which has a significant bearing on whether this scheme can continue at all.

AlekSmart

Victor wrote: »

DSP Free Travel Pass holders are entitled to a 50% discount.

http://www.mandacoaches.com/Routes.html

Note Victor,the use of that word..."concessionary".....oddly enough not a sign of the term..."entitlement"

That alone,is indicative of a sea-change in attitude.;)

parsi

AlekSmart wrote: »

It's an interesting point Parsi,and one which the various parties are dancing around as if it were a pair of handbags on Tamango's floor.

Given the non-statutory nature of the entire Free Travel Scheme,and the freezing of it's budget at 2010 levels it's apparent that something's gotta give,and soon.

With actual Passholders now approaching 750,000 and total entitlement to Free Travel c.1.3 Million,the figures are not adding up.

The sheer number of new DSP passes now being presented by NON OAP holders is something which has a significant bearing on whether this scheme can continue at all.

Those figures are shocking and have a terrible affect on the public purse.

I dont think that any poster (even the protected one) have problem with the needy receiving free travel to bring themselves or their kid or their parents th the hospital.

What people have problems with is those passholders who travel the length and breadth of the country buying and selling but at the taxpayers cost.

(and these passholder are such frequent travellers...

Victor

parsi wrote: »

What people have problems with is those passholders who travel the length and breadth of the country buying and selling but at the taxpayers cost.

(and these passholder are such frequent travellers...

Knock it off

Moderator

foggy_lad

AlekSmart 0717 wrote:

Note Victor,the use of that word..."concessionary".....oddly enough not a sign of the term..."entitlement"

That alone,is indicative of a sea-change in attitude.;)

This whole route licence and contract was nothing to do with any change in the way the nta are looking at subsidised transport or pso contracts. They wanted a single route which they did not want to have to pay subsidy on because if they do it for this route there will be a flood of councillors beating down their door to have all their local routes given similar status.

Bus eireann dont want to operate the route and nobody else will operate it because the main passenger base is free travel pass holders. Others use their cars. The problem for the nta now is that they cant have a freeze on new subsidised routes yet allow this one to slip through.