Is this wrong.

I can't go in to much detail about this but as there are a lot of young people on after hours it might be interesting to here opinions on this.

A tradesman is ruining a one man show and he has there or there abouts enough work to keep himself fully employed sometimes a bit more that that sometimes a bit less than that.

The tradesman is approved by a father he knows, and is asked would he take that persons son on as an apprentice now the young lad in question says he will work for much much less than the legal agreed rate for first year apprentices and will keep this quiet.

The tradesman in question is pondering this but is wary.

Big Nasty

If 'he' wants to take him on as an apprentice why not pay him the full apprentice rate. It's fvck all anyhow.

Hulk Hands

In before the 'ruining' joke

SunnyDub1

The way things are today, I'd say the young lad should be grateful to be given the opportunity to be kept busy, gain some experience and getting a few quid for it.

SEPT 23 1989

He will need extra insurance for the lad

donegal_road

is he on the rock n' roll?

He does not want to take him on as such and although he has has apprentices before he has not had one in a few years because of the recession he does not really need one as such, but the father who approached him is looking for a favourer and it would be just for the first year just so he can get a start if that make sense.

El Guapo!

Apprentice rates are little or nothing so I'd pay the proper rate if I was in his position. If that's still too much then don't take him on.
Sure, everything is amicable at the moment and everyone will keep it quiet, but what happens if there's an argument and they fall out? Who knows whether the apprentice will be spiteful and tell the authorites. The tradesman could be in serious trouble.
Either pay the full rates, or nothing at all.

iamstop

If he doesn't pay him properly what evidence is there that he was an apprentice at all? Wouldn't this make the whole thing a bowling ball, i.e. pointless?

Big Nasty

At a guess I would imagine that the father wants the best of both worlds. I.e. his son is out working, learning a trade and getting a few bob while also claiming the dole. The reason I say this is because a) apprentice fees are very low as is (cq. €200 a week?) and b) if the father is offering his sons services at less than this it will probably be cash-in-hand without any paper trail. The thing is if the son is not registered with FAS and with the OP or 'his friend' as an employee his years service will count for nothing.

westendgirlie

He would have to register the apprentice with FAS otherwise, it's just work experience. If he did register him, he would have to pay him the going rates, have employers insurance, pay for training, etc.

There is a scheme called RAPS (redundant apprentice placement scheme) and the apprentice would be paid by FAS and not the employer. The young lad would have to check with his FAS training adviser if he was eligible though. You would still need the correct level of employers insurance though.

davet82

mariaalice wrote: »

but the father who approached him is looking for a favourer and it would be just for the first year just so he can get a start if that make sense.

get a start in a profession that probably has no future (unless he is emigrating), the father should talk some sense into him :cool:

granturismo

mariaalice wrote: »

I can't go in to much detail about this but as there are a lot of young people on after hours it might be interesting to hear opinions on this.

A tradesman is running a one man show and he has there or there abouts enough work to keep himself fully employed sometimes a bit more that that sometimes a bit less than that.

The tradesman is approached by a father he knows, and is asked would he take that persons son on as an apprentice now the young lad in question says he will work for much much less than the legal agreed rate for first year apprentices and will keep this quiet.

The tradesman in question is pondering this but is wary.

FYP

sfwcork

pay him the going rate but make him do stupid hours unpaid or else sexual favours

AnarchistKen

It is wrong. End of.

Apprentice rates since Feb 11 are €5.73/per hour. Which is feck all when you factor in inflation.

I hope someone gets caught by the short and curlys for employing somebody below this rate and gets hauled before the LRC.

Faolchu

will the young lad be forced to use the tradesmens entrance?

Micky Dolenz

The redundant scheme is no good here as the apprentice isn't a redundant apprentice.

1st years are a liability , the tradesman would be crazy to take him on now. Better off to use the redundant scheme, get a fourth year apprentice for a few months and have FAS pay them.

With regard to drawing the dole. If the apprentice is signed up on to FAS they cannot cliam the dole. If he isnt signed up to FAS then he isn't an apprentice.

pontia

theres tradesmen on app rates with subbies,mainly northies coming in doing jobs for f all.employing eastern europeans and irish guys who are stuck.union throws a few shapes but does sfa,trades finished,get out or dont start

westendgirlie

pontia wrote: »

theres tradesmen on app rates with subbies,mainly northies coming in doing jobs for f all.employing eastern europeans and irish guys who are stuck.union throws a few shapes but does sfa,trades finished,get out or dont start

I really don't get why people bring up eastern Europeans or northies and in the same sentence tell tradesmen from Ireland to go look in other countries for work

Czarcasm

The father in this case is the one in the wrong for approaching his friend and asking him to put himself in that positon. The father should be old enough to understand the possible legal rammifications of what he is asking of his friend.

The son is just as naive to be offering to work for less than the going apprentice rates and should anything happen to him from a health and safety perspective, he is not insured or covered for sick pay.

I can't be sure but would his time served in this shamprenticeship even be recognised by any qualifying body? If he isn't registered and everything isn't above board and on the books, then surely he is only just helping the guy out for cash in hand and not working towards any kind of qualification?

It sounds like it has the potential to become a complete mess of a situation best avoided by the guy saying "hell no!", and leave it at that if he doesn't want to put his business and his reputation at risk.

SwanEater

mariaalice wrote: »

now the young lad in question says he will work for much much less than the legal agreed rate for first year apprentices and will keep this quiet.

Fecking eastern europeans, sick of them already!!! :rolleyes:

Topper Harley

granturismo wrote: »

FYP

This is AH, not Creative Writing. The OP wasn't looking for a critique of his post.

Remmy

He has no liathroidi, I want warriars !!

NegativeCreep

So, am I the only one who didn't understand a word of the OP?

Capt'n Midnight

A good deed never goes unpunished.

If he can't afford to pay the apprentice the legal rate, and insurance and registrations ect. then walk away. He's taking all the risk and by the sound of it for little benefit.

YouTookMyName

I wanna know what trade.

philologos

mariaalice wrote: »

I can't go in to much detail about this but as there are a lot of young people on after hours it might be interesting to here opinions on this.

A tradesman is ruining a one man show and he has there or there abouts enough work to keep himself fully employed sometimes a bit more that that sometimes a bit less than that.

The tradesman is approved by a father he knows, and is asked would he take that persons son on as an apprentice now the young lad in question says he will work for much much less than the legal agreed rate for first year apprentices and will keep this quiet.

The tradesman in question is pondering this but is wary.

Yes, it's immoral to give someone less than the minimum wage for their work. If you are the person in question, if you accept being pushed over once, what's to say you won't get pushed over again in a similar manner?

Micky Dolenz

philologos wrote: »

Yes, it's immoral to give someone less than the minimum wage for their work. If you are the person in question, if you accept being pushed over once, what's to say you won't get pushed over again in a similar manner?

Job bridge schemes?

longhalloween

Topper Harley wrote: »

This is AH, not Creative Writing. The OP wasn't looking for a critique of his post.

He wasn't looking for it but he definitely needed it.

I didn't have a clue what he was on about.

SeantheMan

Aren't we in a recession because of people in the building industry chancing their arm all over the place ?

kfallon

Whenever I hear or see the word 'Tradesman' I seem to turn into a cross between Benny Hill and Kenneth Williams

I know its After hours but seriously.

I can't spell get over it!

I was trying to be discreet so I am sorry if my post did not make complete sense to every one. Although it make sense to every one who gave a sensible reply.

I am a woman.

Topper Harley

mariaalice wrote: »

I know its After hours but seriously.

I can't spell get over it!

I was trying to be discreet so I am sorry if my post did not make complete sense to every one. Although it make sense to every one who gave a sensible reply.

I am a woman.

Oops. Only noticed your username now. Sorry.

PickledLime

Topper Harley wrote: »

This is AH, not Creative Writing. The OP wasn't looking for a critique of his post.

Yes, but the use of the word 'ruining' instead of 'running' renders the entire idea of written communication pointless, as I also had not a clue what they were on about.

Micky Dolenz

mariaalice wrote: »

I know its After hours but seriously.

I can't spell get over it!

I was trying to be discreet so I am sorry if my post did not make complete sense to every one. Although it make sense to every one who gave a sensible reply.

I am a woman.

You are trying to be discreet but post on, arguably, the biggest website in the country and on their biggest forum?

Not seeing how your sex is relevant.

Tell your husband/partner to just say no.

m.j.w

AnarchistKen wrote: »

It is wrong. End of.

Apprentice rates since Feb 11 are €5.73/per hour. Which is feck all when you factor in inflation.

I hope someone gets caught by the short and curlys for employing somebody below this rate and gets hauled before the LRC.

hi where did you see this information? i got paid 172 euro a week in first year of my apprenticeship and thats what the current first year is on as well.

Nedser101

I don't think there is a legal rate to pay an apprentice while he is doing his training ,just a recommended rate from fas so there is no obligation to pay this !

Micky Dolenz

m.j.w wrote: »

hi where did you see this information? i got paid 172 euro a week in first year of my apprenticeship and thats what the current first year is on as well.

This will give you a very rough guide line. Apprentices loving doing block release as wages jump up dramatically. Funny how some 4th years get €600 + from FAS, Qualified guys in the real world are lucky to be clearing that.

Topper Harley

PickledLime wrote: »

Yes, but the use of the word 'ruining' instead of 'running' renders the entire idea of written communication pointless, as I also had not a clue what they were on about.

Wlel I urdenotsod the pnoit she was tyrnig to cmioncumate in the OP, rgealdrses of slpelnig and garmamr.

3ndahalfof6

So the tradesman knows his father, baffled.

El Guapo!

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

You are trying to be discreet but post on, arguably, the biggest website in the country and on their biggest forum?

Not seeing how your sex is relevant.

Tell your husband/partner to just say no.

I think it was because people kept saying HE when referring to her posts.

Also, by being discreet, I think she meant that's why she didn't want to give the full details in case anybody got into trouble.

m.j.w

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

This will give you a very rough guide line. Apprentices loving doing block release as wages jump up dramatically. Funny how some 4th years get €600 + from FAS, Qualified guys in the real world are lucky to be clearing that.

yea thats for the block releases, i dont think there is a minimum wage for an apprentice

Micky Dolenz

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

This will give you a very rough guide line. Apprentices loving doing block release as wages jump up dramatically. Funny how some 4th years get €600 + from FAS, Qualified guys in the real world are lucky to be clearing that.

Surly that indicates that there is something way out of kilter with how apprentice's are paid? if 4 year apprentice's are paid more that qualified people.

Micky Dolenz

m.j.w wrote: »

yea thats for the block releases, i dont think there is a minimum wage for an apprentice

Yeah, trainees and apprentices are exempt from the national minimum wage agreement. FAS would have a recommended pay scale though, that no one would follow.

m.j.w

mariaalice wrote: »

Surly that indicates that there is something way out of kilter with how apprentice's are paid? if 4 year apprentice's are paid more that qualified people.

We got paid 530 a week in fas in 4th year and thats electrical and its the highest paid as far as I know. Dont think anyone gets 600.

Micky Dolenz

Did you read the link?

If you are 4th year and at FAS I.E phase 6, then thats what some trades get. According to FAS's own website.

Micky Dolenz

mariaalice wrote: »

Surly that indicates that there is something way out of kilter with how apprentice's are paid? if 4 year apprentice's are paid more that qualified people.

It's FAS and only they would pay it while an apprentice was on block release. Would be interested to know how much FAS pay 4th years on the redundant scheme.

m.j.w

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

Did you read the link?

If you are 4th year and at FAS I.E phase 6, then thats what some trades get. According to FAS's own website.

That 4th year thing is wrong, most of my class were in 4th year in phase 6 and we all got phase 6 rates 525 euro, as did all the aprentices that i work with ahead of me aswell. Dont know what that 4th year rate is all about

m.j.w

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

It's FAS and only they would pay it while an apprentice was on block release. Would be interested to know how much FAS pay 4th years on the redundant scheme.

200 something euro, we had a lad in our place on it and he was getting a little more than the dole

Davy r

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

It's FAS and only they would pay it while an apprentice was on block release. Would be interested to know how much FAS pay 4th years on the redundant scheme.

€320 for 39 hrs. Did RAPs scheme for 3 months

Davy r

mariaalice wrote: »

Surly that indicates that there is something way out of kilter with how apprentice's are paid? if 4 year apprentice's are paid more that qualified people.

Hold on Maria. Apprentices get paid sweet fanny adams in there first and second year. third year no so bad and it only in phase 2 4 6 fas pay. I agree fas pay alot in phase 6. But times have changed apprentices in their 1st and 2nd year getting paid **** money and when there 3rd or 4rd years most employers wont take them on cause they wont pay them the rate. So Fas made these Raps scheme. Phase 5 on the job €280 Phase 7 on the job €320. There getting paid Buttons... I know i have been there i have done all my Phases. Been there done that. ....

Hope your the chap ya know gets caught by the bollox.