vrt-quick question

farawaygrass

http://cars.donedeal.ie/for-sale/cars/4192600
anyone have any idea on the vrt of this car? thanks

bazz26

You can calculate it yourself here:
https://www.ros.ie/evrt-enquiry/vrtenquiry.html?execution=e1s1

colm_mcm

Personally I wouldn't buy a car on uk plates in Ireland unless it was a dealer, too many chancers out there getting stuff fom the uk and sticking it on donedeal.

It's also illegal

BnB

I'd agree with you RE buying siomething on UK plates here. Why pay some chancer a cut (and take the chance that he hasn't clocked it) when you can just go get it yourself.

But I don't think it's illegal.

Esel

BnB wrote: »

I'd agree with you RE buying siomething on UK plates here. Why pay some chancer a cut (and take the chance that he hasn't clocked it) when you can just go get it yourself.

But I don't think it's illegal.

It is illegal unless the dealer has a TAN number from Revenue.

mathepac

Esel wrote: »

It is illegal unless the dealer has a TAN number from Revenue.

+1.

M three

Esel wrote: »

It is illegal unless the dealer has a TAN number from Revenue.

Ah is that another thing the SIMI has gotten out of the government from lobbying?
Along with the excessive vrt cost itself?

The sh*tes

Esel

M three wrote: »

Ah is that another thing the SIMI has gotten out of the government from lobbying?
Along with the excessive vrt cost itself?

The sh*tes

It has always been the case since VRT was introduced. Whether or not it came about as a result of lobbying by SIMI is not relevant, imo (I don't know if this is the case or not).

I think it is a perfectly reasonable regulation which protects the Exchequer and deters people from engaging in black economy dealing, and allows for prosecution of those caught doing so - especially in the current economic climate.

It also protects buyers, as a dealer is obliged, afaik, to provide a minimum 3 month warranty when selling a used car (unless it is explicitly sold 'as seen'). The dealer also has to VRT the car as part of the sale, which ensures that the buyer cannot be left owning a car which will not pass the test. Obviously, the buyer will have to re-imburse the dealer for the VRT charge.

M three

Why shouldnt people be allowed to buy a car in England or anywhere else overseas if they want?
Without being hit with a totally excessive "VRT" tax. It was brought in to protect irish car dealers who needed to keep their inflated prices.

Even still, anyone buying a new car is still better off in a lot of cases buying it in england, and paying the vrt on it.
Its still works out cheaper than buying it here!
What does that tell you about how much you are being ripped off my Irish motor dealers

Esel

M three wrote: »

Why shouldnt people be allowed to buy a car in England or anywhere else overseas if they want?

They can.

M three wrote: »

Without being hit with a totally excessive "VRT" tax. It was brought in to protect irish car dealers who needed to keep their inflated prices.

No, VRT was instituted to protect state revenue.

M three wrote: »

Even still, anyone buying a new car is still better off in a lot of cases buying it in england, and paying the vrt on it. Its still works out cheaper than buying it here!

It tells me that the Exchequer is protected.

M three wrote: »

What does that tell you about how much you are being ripped off by Irish motor dealers

It tells me that the manufacturer, not the main dealer, is the rip-off artist. Unless you can prove that the mark-up applied by Irish motor dealers does not approximate to the mark-up in other countries.

OT: It really galls me that VRT is calculated to be a percentage of the Open Market Selling Price (OMSP) of the vehicle. The OMSP (of a new car) is the out-the-door price (less delivery, number plates etc.). In (maybe) all other cases (VAT etc.) tax refers to an addition to the tax-free price.

Take a hypothetical example:

Manufacturer cost: €10,000
VAT @ 23% €2,300
Total so far €12,300

Say the VRT rate is 25%. You would expect the VRT to be 25% of €12,300 or €3075, right? So, you would expect to pay €15,375, right?

Not so! The VRT rate of 25% refers to a percentage of the OMSP. (see above).

So, the amount of VRT payable is actually 33.3% (in this hypothetical case only) of €12,300 or €4096 !

How this sleight of hand works is: €12,300 + €4096 = €16,396 - this is the OMSP price you pay (disregard delivery charges etc. - another rip-off).

WTF, you say? Well, work backwards. What is €4096 as a percentage of €16,396 (the famous OMSP)? Work it out - it's 25% - the VRT rate in question!!!

So, creative accounting has actually cost you €1,021 more than you might have expected.

In what other business transaction would it be allowed to use a pricing structure like that?

In the case of a used import, the same 'smoke and daggers' (Howya, Bertie?) formula applies.

Just because you are paranoid does not mean that there is not a kebab (Any tips, Bertie?) out to get you...

mathepac

Esel wrote: »

... It also protects buyers, as a dealer is obliged, afaik, to provide a minimum 3 month warranty when selling a used car (unless it is explicitly sold 'as seen'). ...

This part is not true. Dealers are not obliged to supply warranties. Some do and see the supply of a (usually undocumented) warranty as a way of weaselling out of their obligations under the Sale of Goods and Supply of Services Act. In simple terms the Act states a car must be of merchantable quality, fit for purpose and as described.

Esel wrote: »

... The dealer also has to VRT the car as part of the sale, which ensures that the buyer cannot be left owning a car which will not pass the test. Obviously, the buyer will have to re-imburse the dealer for the VRT charge.

I think you mean NCT instead of VRT here.

Esel

mathepac wrote: »

This part is not true. Dealers are not obliged to supply warranties. Some do and see the supply of a (usually undocumented) warranty as a way of weaselling out of their obligations under the Sale of Goods and Supply of Services Act. In simple terms the Act states a car must be of merchantable quality, fit for purpose and as described.

I think you mean NCT instead of VRT here.

Interesting! I thought a warranty of 3 months minimum was mandatory, unless 'sold as seen'.

I was thinking of the NCT/VRT combination, in the case of a car more than 4 years old.

Reloc8

Esel wrote: »

They can.
No, VRT was instituted to protect state revenue.

It tells me that the Exchequer is protected.

It tells me that the manufacturer, not the main dealer, is the rip-off artist. Unless you can prove that the mark-up applied by Irish motor dealers does not approximate to the mark-up in other countries.

OT: It really galls me that VRT is calculated to be a percentage of the Open Market Selling Price (OMSP) of the vehicle. The OMSP (of a new car) is the out-the-door price (less delivery, number plates etc.). In (maybe) all other cases (VAT etc.) tax refers to an addition to the tax-free price.

Take a hypothetical example:

Manufacturer cost: €10,000
VAT @ 23% €2,300
Total so far €12,300

Say the VRT rate is 25%. You would expect the VRT to be 25% of €12,300 or €3075, right? So, you would expect to pay €15,375, right?

Not so! The VRT rate of 25% refers to a percentage of the OMSP. (see above).

So, the amount of VRT payable is actually 33.3% (in this hypothetical case only) of €12,300 or €4096 !

How this sleight of hand works is: €12,300 + €4096 = €16,396 - this is the OMSP price you pay (disregard delivery charges etc. - another rip-off).

WTF, you say? Well, work backwards. What is €4096 as a percentage of €16,396 (the famous OMSP)? Work it out - it's 25% - the VRT rate in question!!!

So, creative accounting has actually cost you €1,021 more than you might have expected.

In what other business transaction would it be allowed to use a pricing structure like that?

In the case of a used import, the same 'smoke and daggers' (Howya, Bertie?) formula applies.

Just because you are paranoid does not mean that there is not a kebab (Any tips, Bertie?) out to get you...

The 'scam' is that the VRT is charged on OMSP inclusive of VAT, hence you're paying tax on tax. That's if you think its a scam at all - I know I paid mine, just sayin'. Anyway, that's the objection which most people put up against VRT. Your way of doing sums makes my head hurt.

There's nothing odd about calculating the VRT by reference to OMSP. An objective reference point is the only sensible way to make the calculation. Why would it be calculated on the manufacturers cost ?

To illustrate the ridiculousness of using the 'manufacturers cost', this would result on the VRT on older vehicles being sky high relative to the market value of the car - which you presumably wouldn't want.

OMSP adjusted for mileage, spec and condition is the only sensible criteria.

Esel

Reloc8 wrote: »

The 'scam' is that the VRT is charged on OMSP inclusive of VAT, hence you're paying tax on tax. That's if you think its a scam at all - I know I paid mine, just sayin'. Anyway, that's the objection which most people put up against VRT. Your way of doing sums makes my head hurt.

There's nothing odd about calculating the VRT by reference to OMSP. An objective reference point is the only sensible way to make the calculation. Why would it be calculated on the manufacturers cost ?

To illustrate the ridiculousness of using the 'manufacturers cost', this would result on the VRT on older vehicles being sky high relative to the market value of the car - which you presumably wouldn't want.

OMSP adjusted for mileage, spec and condition is the only sensible criteria.

I think you missed the point I was making, which was that the OMSP includes the VRT amount, and stating it as a percentage of that amount is very misleading. The OMSP is arrived at by applying the real VRT rate (33.3% in my example) to the previous base amount (incl. dealer markup, VAT etc.). There is no other way to arrive at the OMSP...

It would be like giving a VAT inclusive price of say €123, and claiming that the VAT rate is therefore 18.7% (which €23 is of €123) when it is actually 23% (of the ex-vat price of €100).

Anyway, I made the post to highlight the issue of the real and apparent rates, as a lot of people are unaware of how it is done. If you knew it already, sorry I hurt your head.