Army assault on Camara Hill

quadsofflug

Was up lug yesterday and shocked to see the damage on Camara which I suspect was done by the army. Photo below. They've been driving something large up there and causing a lot of damage. They have also been up and down table track although that's a bit more robust so the damage isn't as bad. It looks like they are putting up new signs - which is another cause for concern as they seem to be putting up an awful lot of them (4 on the last climb up to the plateau).

They aren't finished (there are some poles up but a lot more marked out for putting up) which means they will be back up there again causing even more damage. As anyone who has been out recently will know the ground condition are very wet at the moment, why can't they wait until it dries out a bit? Or better still put up the signs without using a vehicle - they're not exactly short of manpower. Or best of all don't put up any more signs!

The boards community managed to get those orange paint markers removed from Lug by causing a fuss, so what about trying to prevent them doing any more damage to Camara Hill?

You can phone Coolmoney Camp, Glen of Imaal on (045) 404626 - www.military.ie

The area is a Special Area of Conservation so Wicklow Mountain National Park have a responsibility to protect it, contact them here http://www.wicklowmountainsnationalpark.ie/contact.html

Alun

Camara Hill is within the firing range area though, isn't it? Do the rules regarding the SAC still apply then?

As far as the signs go, a lot of people seem to have no clue regarding the presence of the firing range, and many stray off the main paths either on purpose or by accident. There have been a few cases where the MR teams have had to rescue people who've drifted off down into the Slaney valley, so maybe that's the reason.

EDIT: I've forwarded on a link to this thread to Helen Lawless of MI. She should know what steps can be taken, if any, in this case.

quadsofflug

Alun wrote: »

Camara Hill is within the firing range area though, isn't it? Do the rules regarding the SAC still apply then?

Yes, it is in the firing range. The firing range was there long before the SAC was designated, so there wouldn't have been much point in including it if the rules weren't going to apply. And even if the 'rules' don't apply they should show due respect for the area .

What's happening seems heavy handed and unnecessary damage is being caused. There is really no need to use vehicle's to put up the signs. They have access to Helicopters through the air corp to transport the (ridiculously large) poles, they have a whole pile of soldiers who should be fit enough to walk up and dig the holes. Why do they need to bring vehicles into a fragile area that is already suffering the effects of erosion by walkers?

Alun

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you 100% that they shouldn't be doing what they're doing, I was just thinking aloud as to the actual legality of it all. If the firing range is considered to be outside of the SAC, then legally they're within their rights to do what they want,so any attempt to persuade them of the error of their ways will have to appeal to their sense of responsibility rather than getting legal on them, that's all.

Conmaicne Mara

The war is on hold until better weather arrives

Alun

I got a reply from Helen and she's looking into it. I'll report back with any news when I get any.

Alun

I've been asked by Helen Lawless to post the following statement regarding this issue ...

Mountaineering Ireland met with Defence Forces staff in the Glen of Imaal yesterday to express concern about the new signage, and particularly the vehicle damage on Camarahill and along the ridge towards Lugnaquilla. A further meeting will take place on Monday with the Camp Commandant. As this land is within the Wicklow Mountains Special Area of Conservation (SAC) discussions have also taken place with National Parks and Wildlife Service staff.

She also mentioned that it wouldn’t do any harm if a few more people could get out over the weekend to see what’s happening and make their views known here on Boards or directly to the Defence Forces.

Donny5

Alun wrote: »

I've been asked by Helen Lawless to post the following statement regarding this issue ...



She also mentioned that it wouldn’t do any harm if a few more people could get out over the weekend to see what’s happening and make their views known here on Boards or directly to the Defence Forces.

Well, if they think posting opinions here will help, then I'll throw in behind the DF. It's their land and firing range, and they should do whatever is required to keep civilians out and to allow training to continue. The DF needs ranges and training areas.

Alun

It's not so much what they're doing, although I've not seen the signs they're erecting so can't comment on that aspect, but how they're going about it, i.e. running vehicles up there in wet, muddy conditions and making an already eroded and mucky path even worse. As the OP pointed out it's not as if they're exactly short of manpower to carry a few poles up Lug by hand.

Donny5

Alun wrote: »

It's not so much what they're doing, although I've not seen the signs they're erecting so can't comment on that aspect, but how they're going about it, i.e. running vehicles up there in wet, muddy conditions and making an already eroded and mucky path even worse. As the OP pointed out it's not as if they're exactly short of manpower to carry a few poles up Lug by hand.

That's a fairly derogatory comment about the DF, there. Between training, duties, courses, overseas and leave, and the extremely restricted recruitment, there's definitely a shortage of manpower, and soldiers aren't dogsbodies to be used in lieu of trucks. Helicopters, too, are expensive when an all-wheel drive truck could do the same job at a fraction of the fuel and maintenance cost.

I'm probably about as firm a believer in protecting our natural landscape as you can get, but Camara is part of a military training area. I say let them shell, drive over, dig into, set alight and otherwise use whatever land they want in their area.

Alun

Fair enough. However it's not up to you and I to decide what is allowable or not, but a matter between the Defence Forces, the NPWS and other interested parties. That discussion is thankfully now taking place, and I'll await the outcome with interest.

hmmm

Donny5 wrote: »

I'm probably about as firm a believer in protecting our natural landscape as you can get, but Camara is part of a military training area. I say let them shell, drive over, dig into, set alight and otherwise use whatever land they want in their area.

Camara is still part of the landscape of this country, and the Army have temporarily been given exclusive access to it. I'd expect them to respect the environment as much as is practical in an army range, it's not theirs to do as they see fit as there has to be some limits (e.g. even if they decided it was a good place to store nuclear waste, there are limits).

quadsofflug

The army are obliged, like everyone else, to obey the laws of the land. Farmers and homeowners have severe restrictions placed on them as to what they can do with their property. This land is designated as Special Area of Conservation, it was a firing range when it was designated so obviously it is not considered exempt from protection.

Farmers were given a derogation on slurry spreading dates this year because the land was considered too wet to go onto with machinery. If good agricultural land is too wet to work on then boggy hills are definitely too wet. Why couldn't they have delayed the operation for a couple of months?

This is public land (in the care of the defence forces), it is public money that is being spent, and it is the same public purse that will be paying fines to the EU because we have failed to protect designated areas.

The signs won't stop people from entering the firing range. People go in there knowingly or when they get lost. The former will continue to ignore signs and the latter won't see the signs coz they're lost in the mist or the dark. They are a complete waste of money and on top of that their erection is causing unnecessary damage to an already damaged area.

therealgirl

"Public land, public money being spent"...also public money spent when the army had to dig out the concrete step over that the hillwalkers group put in on the sly (after they were told not to when they asked)...as long as the army have the range there, there will always be someone giving out, whether it be the conservationists or hillwalkers or farmers.
Its a range, guess what they are doing to the land there anyway?
I think getting trucks up there to do the job ten times faster is cheaper than transporting loads of soldiers up and down every day for days on end to get the job done.

hmmm

therealgirl wrote: »

also public money spent when the army had to dig out the concrete step over that the hillwalkers group put in on the sly

The what?

And yeah of course they can drive their trucks up there. They could also erect a 10 metre high fence lined with mines and watch-towers. Just because they could do something doesn't mean it's a good idea.

mikka631

quadsofflug wrote: »

The signs won't stop people from entering the firing range. People go in there knowingly or when they get lost. The former will continue to ignore signs and the latter won't see the signs coz they're lost in the mist or the dark. They are a complete waste of money and on top of that their erection is causing unnecessary damage to an already damaged area.

It is those same people, both the former and the latter, who will be very quick to make a claim for compensation when they are unfortunate enough to step on some unexploded ordnance and make their way to some ambulance chasing solicitor (if they manage to survive the explosion) because the Defence Forces did not provide enough warning of the dangers inherent. These signs are most definitely not a complete waste of money and I would also imagine they are a legal requirement.
A few 4x4 or tracked vehicles making their way up to erect warning notices on a few occasions during the year are not likely to make a huge impact on the landscape, this immediate damage normally returns to nature in a short time. It would be a different case if they were using it like a thoroughfare on a regular basis.
More damage is caused and is most evident on the "popular" hillwalking trails throughout the country by people on foot.

nomdeboardie

Going off on a probably naïve tangent here, but I wonder, given the popularity of Lug as a recreational area, whether it would be feasible for the army to relocate their activity elsewhere. I’ve no idea about the logistics and economics of this myself, so this is at the moment just an open question from me.

hiddenmongoose

How many places in the country do you think its feasible to use as an artillery range ?After all the ordinance that has been fired into that zone how much would it cost to clear it out?how much Tax payers money do you think would be spent in doing so.The DF budget has been slashed to nothing in the last few years, even though it is the only government body that comes in on budget every year.
The DF have strict rules on off-roading so as to preserve the land and not tear it up.That being said the DF still have to train troops ,especially for overseas missions.Between mission readiness exercises,live fire,and various other exercises the Glen is an extremely busy area and sees hundreds of troops exercised in various ways all year round.With all this activity there is still very little damage done to this area.
As for The signs not being necessary,Thats just plain ignorant.Imagine the uproar if a foreign hill walker here on holiday walked into the impact zone and set off some unexploded ordinance and died, and there had been no signs or warnings or information office to warn them.If anything there needs to be more signs placed out warning hillwalkers of the dangers of straying into the impact zone.Just because some will choose to ignore these signs is irrelevant .We see idiots like that in all aspects of life.Darwinism at its best.
saying the DF should place the signs on the hills by hand as there should be plenty of troops to do so is also ignorant.firstly logistically that would require alot of time/manpower.The DF has had its budget slashed to nothing,it has had its numbers slashed,And yet under these strains the DF is still doing all its previous taskings,Cash in transit escorts,prison security,prisoner escorts,explosive escorts,overseas missions,vital instilation security,aid to civil authority.There is enough work without making simple jobs more difficult (and longer)like carrying poles up mountain tracks by hand instead of in trucks,This is not the stone age.What damage do you think would be caused by a company of troops dragging signs up the track ?
With all that is going on in this country and genuinely threatening and damaging our wildlife and beautiful countryside a bit of a muddy track that will dry up in summer and have grass grow back over it caused in the name of trying to make it safer for hillwalkers should be the least of peoples worries.
Then again some people are never happy

Alun

I agree that once a place has been used as a range like that, it's destined to remain one forever. However I must take issue with the comment regarding it being just a muddy track that'll dry up in summer ...

Due to the fragile nature of the ground there, and in many places in Wicklow, the 'grass' (actually a mix of various grasses, heather, fraughan and other plants) doesn't just grow back magically and restore itself though. There's a thinnish layer of peat on top of a rocky substrate, and what generally happens when the peat layer is gouged up, especially by wheeled vehicles, is that channels form which then channel rainwater making the channel deeper and eventually washing away most of the peat layer right down to the rock. No amount of drying out, not that ever really happens to any great extent, will help restore the damage done.

Surely this will dry out in the Spring and nature will take over again. If so, it's no big deal for me.

newmug

Alun wrote: »

Due to the fragile nature of the ground there, and in many places in Wicklow, the 'grass' (actually a mix of various grasses, heather, fraughan and other plants) doesn't just grow back magically and restore itself though. There's a thinnish layer of peat on top of a rocky substrate, and what generally happens when the peat layer is gouged up, especially by wheeled vehicles, is that channels form which then channel rainwater making the channel deeper and eventually washing away most of the peat layer right down to the rock. No amount of drying out, not that ever really happens to any great extent, will help restore the damage done.

Cop yourself on will ye. It was a track before the army jeep drove up there anyway, water channelled down it for millenia and it recovered. You'd think this was the last piece of peat on Earth the way some people are going on. I'd rather have a bit of a mucky track than a dead body.

hmmm

hiddenmongoose wrote: »

As for The signs not being necessary,Thats just plain ignorant..

No-ones said that, don't create straw-men arguments. The argument is whether it is necessary to do as much damage in the way they were erected. Just because you don't care for this country's environment, doesn't mean the rest of us don't.

As for having an artillery range on the side of one of the most popular outdoor recreation areas in the country, yes that's insane, but we'll have to blame the British and live with it I think

hiddenmongoose

hmmm, maybe you didnt read all the posts but actually they did say that , direct quote from quadsofflug
''The signs won't stop people from entering the firing range. People go in there knowingly or when they get lost. The former will continue to ignore signs and the latter won't see the signs coz they're lost in the mist or the dark. THEY ARE A COMPLETE WASTE OF MONEY and on top of that their erection is causing unnecessary damage to an already damaged area.''
They are far from a complete waste of money, they are an important safety aspect.As I allready said Imagine if you were hill walking abroad with your family or friends and strayed into a military impact zone and one of you were injured or killed .Then you found out there was no signs anywhere to warn you of this danger.Imagine the media frenzy here back home,imagine the lawsuits.As another poster said cop yerselves on.
Big assumption on your behalf that I care not for this countries enviroment,Why do you feel the need for such a personnel insult ?I have not insulted you.
I have planted hedgerows for small birds this year , I have helped clean out a local river of rubbish and debris and put in gravel to encourage trout and salmon to spawn(I dont fish for either species)I have helped put feeders out for game birds in harsh winter and planted crops for cover for them(I dont shoot pheasants.Iv helped in local litter walks where locals gather rubbish from the roadside thrown by careless individuals .
I hillwalk,shoot and fish and as such care alot for this countries enviroment which gives me such joy.
I however am able to differentiate between what is of real concern and what is trivial.

hmmm

hiddenmongoose wrote: »

They are far from a complete waste of money, they are an important safety aspect.As I allready said Imagine if you were hill walking abroad with your family or friends and strayed into a military impact zone and one of you were injured or killed .Then you found out there was no signs anywhere to warn you of this danger.Imagine the media frenzy here back home,imagine the lawsuits.As another poster said cop yerselves on.

Again with the arguing about the signs themselves whereas the rest of us are arguing about the damage done by those who went up to erect the signs. If they want to put up signs (I've no problem with that), then at least have the cop on not to churn up the hillside in the process. It's bad enough that there is a range there without them adding to the damage.

I was part of a group that encountered an ould lad who got lost in the range last year as he was making his way up towards Lug. No sign was going to stop him making his way home that way, and I saw on the news he had to be rescued.

I'll tell you why it's important seeing as some people think "it's only a small bit of damage". Some parts of the Wicklow mountains are now quagmires thanks to the activity of quad bikers & scramblers. At least with walkers, runners, bikers the ground has some chance to recover, but the motorised stuff does huge damage and creates huge muddy ruts. Each of these bikers and quads may do "only a small bit of damage", but it often lasts years (or forever in some cases). The last thing we need in the fight against this destruction is state agencies also doing "just a small bit of damage", which sets a fine example for the rest of us.