Second penalty fare

ILoveParamore

As the title suggests,i received my second fine this morning in drumcondra train station.
I get on in broombridge where there are no ticket machines. I appealed this the last time and they sorted it out for me. Now it's happening again!
Irish rail do not provide a service for me to pay for my ticket, i don't use it every morning so the weekly tickets are useless. I bought a leap card but i have nowhere to tag on so that's useless.

Anyone know if I'll get away with this again.. The fine is €101.80

corktina

Can you show that you live or work adjacent to Broombridge station? Lots of people claim to have boarded there when caught as they know there are no facilities and thats why IE tend not to believe people making such claims. If you can show them that it is your local station, you'll be OK with an appeal I would have thought.

foggy_lad

corktina wrote: »

Can you show that you live or work adjacent to Broombridge station? Lots of people claim to have boarded there when caught as they know there are no facilities and thats why IE tend not to believe people making such claims. If you can show them that it is your local station, you'll be OK with an appeal I would have thought.

Unless they had someone checking every single passenger onto trains in broombridge there is no way they can prove you intended to evade paying your fare. You travelled without a ticketbut oonly because one was not available to purchase in your station. You don't have to show you live near the station as you might have been visiting or dropped off there to get the train.

Until Irish fail sort out that station or shut it down they can't issue fines or refuse to accept people at their word when they claim to have boarded at broombridge

foggy_lad

ILoveParamore wrote: »

As the title suggests,i received my second fine this morning in drumcondra train station.
I get on in broombridge where there are no ticket machines. I appealed this the last time and they sorted it out for me. Now it's happening again!
Irish rail do not provide a service for me to pay for my ticket, i don't use it every morning so the weekly tickets are useless. I bought a leap card but i have nowhere to tag on so that's useless.

Anyone know if I'll get away with this again.. The fine is €101.80

Fight it all the way to the court! If you legitimately boarded at broombridge then how can they say you must have a ticket when they have not allowed you buy a ticket at the station booking office or even at a tvm.

Saruman

There are stations like that in the UK, their solution is to have an inspector on the train that goes around after such stations and issues tickets.

foggy_lad

Saruman wrote: »

There are stations like that in the UK, their solution is to have an inspector on the train that goes around after such stations and issues tickets.

Irish rail used to do that but stopped as the inspectors cost money while fining people indiscriminately only costs in lost passengers.

Losty Dublin

I'm aware that some mornings sees staff hand out supplementary slips out to passengers at Broombridge to prove that it is where you boarded; maybe it was your unlucky day and you missed out on one of these passes. Contact the phone number on the ticket and talk to them about it. If it happened to you before they may take it as a going concern or they may consider yourself to be chancing your arm; either way only they can make the call.

foggy_lad

Losty Dublin wrote: »

either way only they can make the call.

A judge can also make the call on this which could easily be seen as demanding money with menaces

Grandeeod

Losty Dublin wrote: »

I'm aware that some mornings sees staff hand out supplementary slips out to passengers at Broombridge to prove that it is where you boarded; maybe it was your unlucky day and you missed out on one of these passes. Contact the phone number on the ticket and talk to them about it. If it happened to you before they may take it as a going concern or they may consider yourself to be chancing your arm; either way only they can make the call.

The station has no means by which to purchase a ticket, therefore the company have no right to fine you. Its up to them to prove you intended to evade the fare. Staff being present on "some mornings" isn't good enough and as someone else already pointed out, Irish Rail should just sort out the station or close it.

If any passenger uses Broombridge station and cannot buy a ticket and is then fined on arrival at Connolly etc. it's absolutely disgraceful and is indefensible.

Losty Dublin

Grandeeod wrote: »

The station has no means by which to purchase a ticket, therefore the company have no right to fine you. Its up to them to prove you intended to evade the fare. Staff being present on "some mornings" isn't good enough and as someone else already pointed out, Irish Rail should just sort out the station or close it.
.

Except Irish Rail doesn't issue fines; it issues fixed penalty fare to those who have no ticket at the time of asking and who could have had gotten one. If a passenger is issued with a fixed penalty fare and feel they are in the right then they are more than welcome to appeal it or to not pay the fare and to take it to court; it's not as if you have no choice but to pay it.

Our man in Havana

I take there is no obligation to appeal to IE before it goes to court?

I would be inclined to allow them to waste money on a pointless court case. Maybe then they would get the message.

Grandeeod

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Except Irish Rail doesn't issue fines; it issues fixed penalty fare to those who have no ticket at the time of asking and who could have had gotten one. If a passenger is issued with a fixed penalty fare and feel they are in the right then they are more than welcome to appeal it or to not pay the fare and to take it to court; it's not as if you have no choice but to pay it.

Ok so, its a fixed penalty fare. But can you not see that it is utterly stupid/unfair/rediculous even, to issue a fixed penalty fare to a passenger travelling from a station where the company knows its not possible to purchase a ticket? And furthermore its done on the basis that the passenger may be telling a lie? I accept it can and is used as a way to evade a fare, but it is simply not good enough for the company to react in what is a lazy and careless fashion by issuing the penalty fare and then expecting the passenger to go through the motions even though a legitimate passenger has obeyed the company's by laws. The onus is absolutely on Irish Rail to ensure that their facilities are provided in accordance with their bye laws, conditions of travel etc. ensuring their passengers are given the opportunity to obey them and not put through the inconvenience of appealing, going to court etc.

Put simply, if you can't purchase a ticket in Broombridge, you shouldn't be fined and the company needs to address the matter in a more professional manner and certainly not via a blanket fixed penalty fare approach.

Our man in Havana

Let a judge give them a dressing down in public for it.

Our man in Havana

Saruman wrote: »

There are stations like that in the UK, their solution is to have an inspector on the train that goes around after such stations and issues tickets.

Rathdrum is permanently unmanned and there is no TVM. However an inspector will happily sell you a ticket on the train.

Why can't they do that with Broombridge?

Grandeeod

Our man in Havana wrote: »

Rathdrum is permanently unmanned and there is no TVM. However an inspector will happily sell you a ticket on the train.

Why can't they do that with Broombridge?

Broombridge is on a route that has TVMs (except for BB) and barriers at all stations I assume. This has supposedly eliminated the need for checkers and lead to savings. Supposedly.

Losty Dublin

Our man in Havana wrote: »

I take there is no obligation to appeal to IE before it goes to court?

I would be inclined to allow them to waste money on a pointless court case. Maybe then they would get the message.

No obligation to appeal; if it remains unpaid and it hasn't been stuck out then it will go to court. You'd want to be very silly or reckless to risk a conviction and the day off in court for something that can be sorted out beforehand via a phone call or a letter.

The fare evasion cases are held in bulk sittings so there's not much additional cost in them prosecuting if they lose and zero if the prosecution is successful (They will get costs in the event of a win).

Our man in Havana

Witness expenses. They would need the RPU chap to give evidence.

I would only adopt such an attitude for a sure fire situation where IE are 100% wrong.
And I would get my costs also.

Hilly Bill

foggy_lad wrote: »

Irish rail used to do that but stopped as the inspectors cost money while fining people indiscriminately only costs in lost passengers.

They dont fine people for no reason Foggy and you know it. If someone is not in possession of a valid ticket when checked then they will be fined simple as.

Thats a response to your post only before you reply mentioning Broombridge.

Losty Dublin

Our man in Havana wrote: »

Witness expenses. They would need the RPU chap to give evidence.

I would only adopt such an attitude for a sure fire situation where IE are 100% wrong.

I'd say they attend as part of their working day a al Gardai in court.

I take your point but other citizens may not be as sensible as you

Hilly Bill

ILoveParamore wrote: »

As the title suggests,i received my second fine this morning in drumcondra train station.
I get on in broombridge where there are no ticket machines. I appealed this the last time and they sorted it out for me. Now it's happening again!
Irish rail do not provide a service for me to pay for my ticket, i don't use it every morning so the weekly tickets are useless. I bought a leap card but i have nowhere to tag on so that's useless.

Anyone know if I'll get away with this again.. The fine is €101.80

Pop round to the RPU office in Connolly ( its at the top of the car park just out through the arch off platform 2) and tell them what happened and explain that you have all ready won an appeal the last time it happened and show proof if possible. It might get sorted there and then for you.

Victor

foggy_lad wrote: »

A judge can also make the call on this which could easily be seen as demanding money with menaces

I think this is an exaggeration

Moderator

ILoveParamore

Yeah the last time this happened the checked the CCTV at Broombridge and confirmed that i got on there.

They gave me a big speech about travelling for free is not permitted that i should pay when i get to drumcondra.. but they never even give you a chance to go through and buy a ticket from the guy in the station.

I'm just worried because it's the second fine they have given me now. But still... THERE IS NO TICKET MACHINE! Broombridge station, if you can even call it that, is an open area. No gates, just two platforms and burnt out shelters.

i hate irish rail!

ps. thanks for all the replies.. set my mind at ease anyways!

foggy_lad

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Except Irish Rail doesn't issue fines; it issues fixed penalty fare to those who have no ticket at the time of asking and who could have had gotten one. If a passenger is issued with a fixed penalty fare and feel they are in the right then they are more than welcome to appeal it or to not pay the fare and to take it to court; it's not as if you have no choice but to pay it.

"Issues fixed penalty fares to those................who could have got one".

Seriously what planet ar you on that you think tickets are in any way available at broombridge station?

G-unit10

post a letter to the address given stating what has happened/your position on this, end by saying you look forward to them confirming the issue has been closed. enclose the applicable fare in the envelope. that will be that

foggy_lad

Victor wrote: »

I think this is an exaggeration

Moderator

I honestly don't think it is.
They are issuing fixed penalty fines which is demanding money from people using the threat of criminal conviction when they know and have always known that it is not possible to buy or otherwise obtain a ticket at broombridge station. How else can it be described?

Hilly Bill

ILoveParamore wrote: »

Yeah the last time this happened the checked the CCTV at Broombridge and confirmed that i got on there.

They gave me a big speech about travelling for free is not permitted that i should pay when i get to drumcondra.. but they never even give you a chance to go through and buy a ticket from the guy in the station.

I'm just worried because it's the second fine they have given me now. But still... THERE IS NO TICKET MACHINE! Broombridge station, if you can even call it that, is an open area. No gates, just two platforms and burnt out shelters.

i hate irish rail!

ps. thanks for all the replies.. set my mind at ease anyways!

Like i said, pop into the rpu office in connolly and explain to them that you got on in Broombridge and got fined before you got the first opportunity to pay the fare in Drumcondra and explain to them about the first fine.
After that, go to the info desk in connolly and ask for a customer feedback form and fill it in there and then and hand it in.
The Rpu would have been right to issue you with a fine because at that point they wouldnt have know that you actually did board at Broombridge without reviewing the cctv which would have delayed you further. Its a pain in the backside for you to having to go through the same hassle every time until they get proof that you got on in Broombridge .
Dont waste your time phoning or e-mailing, go and speak with them face to face.

Hilly Bill

foggy_lad wrote: »

I honestly don't think it is.
They are issuing fixed penalty fines which is demanding money from people using the threat of criminal conviction when they know and have always known that it is not possible to buy or otherwise obtain a ticket at broombridge station. How else can it be described?

Anyone can just say that they got on at Broombridge Foggy i think you may have already sussed that one out. The problem will only be solved when either the station gets pulled or they come up with another solution to deal with this issue.

Losty Dublin

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Anyone can just say that they got on at Broombridge Foggy i think you may have already sussed that one out. The problem will only be solved when either the station gets pulled or they come up with another solution to deal with this issue.

Stupid but true fact. A guy was recently issued with a fixed penalty fare after getting off an ex Midleton train. His plead to the RPU agent for not having a ticket?

I got on at Broombridge.

AlekSmart

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Anyone can just say that they got on at Broombridge Foggy i think you may have already sussed that one out. The problem will only be solved when either the station gets pulled or they come up with another solution to deal with this issue.

Ermmmm...I thought we already have a solution...it's called Luas BXD is it not ?

Hilly Bill

AlekSmart wrote: »

Ermmmm...I thought we already have a solution...it's called Luas BXD is it not ?

Ok, let me rephrase it. Until a new solution is put in place.

Wicklowandy

Might be good time to 'talk to joe'

Hilly Bill

Does he work in the RPU?

foggy_lad

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Like i said, pop into the rpu office in connolly and explain to them that you got on in Broombridge and got fined before you got the first opportunity to pay the fare in Drumcondra and explain to them about the first fine.
After that, go to the info desk in connolly and ask for a customer feedback form and fill it in there and then and hand it in.
The Rpu would have been right to issue you with a fine because at that point they wouldnt have know that you actually did board at Broombridge without reviewing the cctv which would have delayed you further. Its a pain in the backside for you to having to go through the same hassle every time until they get proof that you got on in Broombridge .
Dont waste your time phoning or e-mailing, go and speak with them face to face.

But the Irish rail gob****es know that the only proof any passenger can have of boarding at a particular station is the ticket from that station but if no ticket is available there can be no proof! How thick can these rpu agents get without being moved on to management positions?

foggy_lad

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Anyone can just say that they got on at Broombridge Foggy i think you may have already sussed that one out. The problem will only be solved when either the station gets pulled or they come up with another solution to deal with this issue.

Until they come up with a solution it is their problem not that of innocent passengers so they must take people at their word unles they are in possession of definitive proof that the person did not board at broombridge. They can't accuse passengers of stealing just because they can't prove that they are innocent!

foggy_lad

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Stupid but true fact. A guy was recently issued with a fixed penalty fare after getting off an ex Midleton train. His plead to the RPU agent for not having a ticket?

I got on at Broombridge.

Could they prove he didn't?

Losty Dublin

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Does he work in the RPU?

Threatening to be ringing Joe Duffy seem to be the modern day equivalent of "I'll tell me brother; he'll batter ye".

Hilly Bill

foggy_lad wrote: »

Until they come up with a solution it is their problem not that of innocent passengers so they must take people at their word unles they are in possession of definitive proof that the person did not board at broombridge. They can't accuse passengers of stealing just because they can't prove that they are innocent!

ah here foggy ,calm down.

Hilly Bill

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Threatening to be ringing Joe Duffy seem to be the modern day equivalent of "I'll tell me brother; he'll batter ye".

its either joe or boards.ie. Both are good but pointless to complain on.

Our man in Havana

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Stupid but true fact. A guy was recently issued with a fixed penalty fare after getting off an ex Midleton train. His plead to the RPU agent for not having a ticket?

I got on at Broombridge.

What must have been some journey.

Losty Dublin

Hilly Bill wrote: »

its either joe or boards.ie. Both are good but pointless to complain on.

Joe Duffy is better. Some day you might just get the chance to punch him in the face

schemingbohemia

ILoveParamore wrote: »

Yeah the last time this happened the checked the CCTV at Broombridge and confirmed that i got on there.

They gave me a big speech about travelling for free is not permitted that i should pay when i get to drumcondra.. but they never even give you a chance to go through and buy a ticket from the guy in the station.

I'm just worried because it's the second fine they have given me now. But still... THERE IS NO TICKET MACHINE! Broombridge station, if you can even call it that, is an open area. No gates, just two platforms and burnt out shelters.

i hate irish rail!

ps. thanks for all the replies.. set my mind at ease anyways!

Perhaps you should hate the scumbags who destroy and burn everything put in at Broombridge within days of its installation?

ILoveParamore

Well.. Just got off the phone with the guy who said because I've travelled more than once this week and probably other weeks and not paid they can take me to court.

Im just gonna pay it and be done with it.

Anyone know how much a monthly ticket is?? Ha

Our man in Havana

Well.. Just got off the phone with the guy who said because I've travelled more than once this week and probably other weeks and not paid they can take me to court.

Holy Sh1t!

Probably don't cut the mustard in a court of law.
Fight on and don't let them bully you.

schemingbohemia

So do you never pay when you get to Drumcondra? Or only offer to pay when detained by an RPU official?

foggy_lad

ILoveParamore wrote: »

Well.. Just got off the phone with the guy who said because I've travelled more than once this week and probably other weeks and not paid they can take me to court.

Im just gonna pay it and be done with it.

Anyone know how much a monthly ticket is?? Ha

What you did on other occasions has nothing to do with what they are fining you for now and they can't claim with any certainty that you have failed to pay on previous occasions as they would need to show you had been stopped and found not to have a ticket on those occasions. They fined you because their failing company can't be bothered to sell you a ticket for your journey.

Hilly Bill

ILoveParamore wrote: »

Well.. Just got off the phone with the guy who said because I've travelled more than once this week and probably other weeks and not paid they can take me to court.

Im just gonna pay it and be done with it.

Anyone know how much a monthly ticket is?? Ha

why didnt you go into them instead. If you got away with it the first time then why are you willing to pay the fine now if its the same situation? Im not sure if you are giving us the full story here.

sligotrain

ILoveParamore wrote: »

Well.. Just got off the phone with the guy who said because I've travelled more than once this week and probably other weeks and not paid they can take me to court.

Im just gonna pay it and be done with it.

Anyone know how much a monthly ticket is?? Ha

€190 for a monthly tax saver ticket for the Dublin Area.

Broombridge is an interesting case because of the reason why there isn't a ticket machine there. There is a part time ticket office in a container, but I have no doubt that if a ticket machine was installed there it would be destroyed within a day. After all Broombridge isn't Ireland's first combat-ready station for nothing you know.

For that reason Broombridge is a very popular calling point for fare dodgers. Simply claim you've got on at Broombridge and hey presto, instant fare dodging justification!

If I were setting policy at IE I would have a zero tolerance policy towards fare dodging at Broombridge. There are Leap terminals and if the ticket office was closed then tough. No chance to buy a ticket? Don't get on the train.

This admittedly tough policy could be alleviated somewhat by encouraging local newsagents in the Broombridge area to sell one day bus rail and LUAS tickets, so no one in the area can't say they didn't have the opportunity to buy a ticket.

Cue squeals of outrage!

ILoveParamore

Hilly Bill wrote: »

why didnt you go into them instead. If you got away with it the first time then why are you willing to pay the fine now if its the same situation? Im not sure if you are giving us the full story here.

I am telling the full story, I've had a bad week and i want to.forget about this and just pay it.

Hilly Bill

You say that you had a leap card so why didnt you show it and tell them that you couldnt tag on?

schemingbohemia

sligotrain wrote: »

€190 for a monthly tax saver ticket for the Dublin Area.

Broombridge is an interesting case because of the reason why there isn't a ticket machine there. There is a part time ticket office in a container, but I have no doubt that if a ticket machine was installed there it would be destroyed within a day. After all Broombridge isn't Ireland's first combat-ready station for nothing you know.

For that reason Broombridge is a very popular calling point for fare dodgers. Simply claim you've got on at Broombridge and hey presto, instant fare dodging justification!

If I were setting policy at IE I would have a zero tolerance policy towards fare dodging at Broombridge. There are Leap terminals and if the ticket office was closed then tough. No chance to buy a ticket? Don't get on the train.

This admittedly tough policy could be alleviated somewhat by encouraging local newsagents in the Broombridge area to sell one day bus rail and LUAS tickets, so no one in the area can't say they didn't have the opportunity to buy a ticket.

Cue squeals of outrage!

There aren't Leap terminals there.

Tarabuses

ILoveParamore wrote: »

I am telling the full story, I've had a bad week and i want to.forget about this and just pay it.

But then aren't you condeming yourself to paying it every time in future that this happens?

How many people board at Broombridge everyday? Do they all get penalty fares at their destination?