Who can do what !!

miketheboyoo

Hi lads a question to ask. Sorry if I have some information wrong. I got my immersion changed recently. The neighbor next door was getting a new steam boiler installed. Your man had heating engineer on the van. After having a row with the last plumber I said I would get the engineer next door and he changed the immersion. A few months later I had a leak on my cylinder. I called the insurance company. They send out someone for I needed a new floor and a few bits.
After they looked they said it was leaking under the immersion. A few weeks later I got a letter saying I was not covered because your man was not a qualified plumber. I rang you man and had it out. He said he was not a plumber but an oftec engineer. I had to pay for a new floor and cylinder and bits.

So whats the story lads.........who can do what ???????
My neighbor wants to know would his new boiler be covered ?
Can you become an oftec engineer without being a plumber or something else ?
Was your man a spoofer ?
Was the insurance company chancing their arm ?
I cant afford to get other help after my bill. All info would for me and Paddy will be helpful.

If I am wrong about anything let me know.
Your man has all the signs gone of his van.

corkgsxr

Bit of a retarded system, all you need is to be is qualified at something to do oil gas solar panel courses

shane0007

If the OFTEC took on the job, he therefore deemed himself to be suitably competent to do so. If it leaked, the probable cause was that when tightening, he over-tightened it and tore the washer. A common issue.
You should not have gone through your insurance company as it was the fault of the installer. You should have the installer make good or pay for all corrections. The installer must have insurance and if he does not wish to claim on his insurance he must pay to have it corrected and all damage made good.

On the point of the insurance company, you do not have to be a qualified plumber to change an immersion. Does a plumber have to be a qualified electrician to wire it? RGI's are certified to work on the electrical components of a heating system if they have undertook the electrical module of GID. It seems as always they were looking for a get out clause.

miketheboyoo

Thanks for the replys lads.
The report said that their was a hairline crack under the rim off the immerision and if he was a qualified plumber this may not have occured.
0007 you write good but you have me confused.
Does that mean the oftec man does not have to be qualified at anything ?
Where do you to train to be a heating engineer ?

Are you more interested in who does what which is a pointless conversation or what to do with your problem;) if you had any tradesman in your house he would have public liability insurance, if he wasn't a tradesman then it would be the small claims court you would be paying a visit to.

shane0007

Under the rim of the immersion? Was it the seal or the immersion itself, as if the latter it could have been a manufacturer defect? It is not rocket science to change an immersion, drain a little from the cylinder, isolate electrical supply, disconnect 3 or 4 wires depending in how many elements, unscrew and fit new immersion in reverse actions. You just must be very careful with the washer. They can be easily damaged if over-tightened.
An OFTEC technician is not a Heating Engineer. He is qualified as an oil boiler technician. There is no formal qualification in Ireland for Heating Engineers but there is in the UK, so he may have studied there as I did.
In a court of law, competency may be deemed by experience alone. It would depend on the judge of the day so it would be incorrect for an insurance company to decline for the reason they gave.
My point was that a plumber may install an immersion but is he competent to wire it? Can he recognise the correct diameter of cable required and is it heat resistant? Is an electrician competent to work in the wet side? The answer, of course, is deemed by the installer, if he agrees to carry out the works, he is in fact stating to you that he is competent to do so and therefore your claim is with him.

miketheboyoo

Sure the immerision came with a wire on it.

I got my cylinder changed by a plumber and boy god I made sure he was.

I supposed me and Paddy is trying to figure out is,
a plumber trains for 4 years. Does a oftec man do the same ? or what doe he do to train ?

miketheboyoo

The leak was under the immersion rim on the cylinder.

miketheboyoo

miketheboyoo wrote: »

I supposed me and Paddy is trying to figure out is,
a plumber trains for 4 years. Does a oftec man do the same ? or what doe he do to train ?

all due respect but why?

It's pointless question because OFTEC is a add on and not a stand alone qualification, I'm a gasman and I'm OFTEC accredited so discussing the OFTEC side of my certs only tells a small story of my qualifications.

If you have a tradesman in front of you ask him about his quilfications and if you don't like the answer find someone else.

shane0007

miketheboyoo wrote: »

Sure the immerision came with a wire on it

I know it does, but on many occasions it is not long enough to reach the immersion switch and must be re-wired. So does the installer have the correct cable, etc.

miketheboyoo wrote: »

a plumber trains for 4 years. Does a oftec man do the same ? or what doe he do to train ?

An OFTEC Technician is not learning the whole trade of plumbing, such as heating, hw, cw, drainage, etc. They are only learning about oil storage, supply, combustion and related oil boiler technicals.
I am afraid only 10 days but with some centres it can be done in 5 days.
In defence, the process is only part of the whole picture. It is giving a basis from which ground guided experience is built upon, hopefully under the supervision of a suitably trained, qualified and experienced operative.
It works both ways, a plumber is not a boiler technician and is not taught so under their apprenticeship process. Nor is he taught to wire an immersion! This is why quality experience counts for so much.

shane0007

miketheboyoo wrote: »

The leak was under the immersion rim on the cylinder.

There is a few things under the rim, such as the underside of the rim (manufacturer defect), the washer (installer issue) and of course the cylinder itself (flange issue).

With that in kind, what was the exact cause of the leak? Which part leaked? Unless the insurance company knows, the arguement is futile.

miketheboyoo

My nephew is a electrican and it took him 4 years to trian. The plumber took 4 years.
Your are oftec trained how man years does it take ? And are you allowed to plumb ?
I am asking because everyone in the pubs says something different and thats pub talk. It would nice to know the truth. And maybe go back to my insurance company.
Thanks
Does it take long to be a gasman ?

miketheboyoo

miketheboyoo wrote: »

Does it take long to be a gasman ?

Me, 4 years

shane0007

The basis for entry is to hold an associated trade (or be a taxi driver, sorry private joke with some here).
There are many sectional certified courses, for example, somebody with an associated or allied trade may wish to do an Electrical Minor Works course. This will enable them to wire from spurs, extend socket and lighting circuits but NOT wire into the fuse board. This can only be done by a qualified electrician who has done their time. OFTEC and RGI and the like are all add-on certified courses that all should have supervision following them.

DGOBS

I am afraid the industry (unfortunately) does not give you transparency on this issue (and it should!)

RGI - Registered Gas Installer, may or maynot be a qualified plumber, you will find associated trades such as electricians and fitters taking the (short) training course of GAS competence to allow them to work on gas installations. Does this may them qualified to plumb, of course not. But the RGI membership confuses customers in this regard, IMHO it should have always been a 'tiered' system, that provides clear distinction between 'technicians' and 'installers' the later being qualified plumbers only, but it doesn't.

The exact same situation applies to Oftec, you may find the technician has certification as '101' (service and commissioning technicians) 105e (installer) and 600a (oil tank installation) but still not be a qualified plumber.

The system is flawed from the point of view of the consumer IMHO, plumbers are the only trade that should be allowed hold an 'installer' status (they earned it during their 4 years), there rest should be labeled as technicians only.

As for 'engineers' this is a technical term that describes someone who is registered with the engineers guild, and applies to NONE of the above. And I would find it highly unlikely you would find any engineer in your house changing immersions, they would be more likely employed designing systems etc.

But, to your original question, your insurance in this matter is supplied by the installer (his/her insurance) and thats where you claim should be, not you own insurance company, although they should in turn claim against the installer if you go down that path.

im invisible

You're a gas man Gary!

im invisible

im invisible wrote: »

You're a gas man Gary!

I have my moments:D

JohnnieK

Well here's my situation.
I served a 4 year apprenticeship (usually 5 by the time i got through the back log with collage) as a plumber. I then done a 2 year Diploma in Mechanical building services.
Then I done my GID to work on gas (always worked on gas but was not a legal requirement back then). I then done a GIFF cert to get that on paper too.
Then I done my OFTEC.
During my apprenticeship when ever I was installing a gas line or appliance (mainly industrial units) I was watched like a hawk when doing it until such a time that my mentor was happy that I was competent to do it unsupervised.

At the moment there is nothing in place to stop anyone from pulling up in there taxi and going at gas once they have a peice of paper saying GID or OFTEC with oil (the taxi is a long story that I just dont want to explain again).
The public's perception of this whole industry is in the gutter too and it's down to no legislation or standard in the industry over the years.

I've always said it, after working in industrial and commercial installations for years if something was not right or to standards you where pulled up on it, it seems that when it comes to private homes anything goes the dollar rules not the quality.

OP the buck stops with the guy who put the immersion in, his excuse to you is laughable.

corkgsxr

Apparently one of the problems with magnetic van signage is people were suddenly becoming all sorts of technician/worker at a drop of a hat, to what ever seemed to be a money winner