Golf membership 2013

oliverwoof

Hi, is anyone considering membership in Carton for 2013? I think subs are €2,300 for the year. If so, please contact me, i'd be interested in hearing from you.

Thanks

Dr_Colossus

Not at €2300, far too expensive for me when you factor in travel time and money also. Killeen Castle is €2000 (€1000 if you're under 30)
As an FYI got a text from Luttrellstown Castle today and they're reducing their 2013 subs from €2000+Vat to €1700+Vat. An improvement but still too expensive, if they had it all in for €1500 would have to give it serious consideration.

scubapro

oliverwoof wrote: »

Hi, is anyone considering membership in Carton for 2013? I think subs are €2,300 for the year. If so, please contact me, i'd be interested in hearing from you.

Thanks

Why would you be interested in hearing from prospective members, referral fee?

oliverwoof

i'd be interested in splitting the referral fee with any prospective new members scuba.

Appreciate your opinion Colossus. You have to bear in mind that Luttrellstown has very few members now so comp days are poor also, you get two courses with Carton and with the Irish Open being played there in 2013, its a fair price. It's just out of my pricepoint now but if i could share a referral fee then maybe.

Dr_Colossus

oliverwoof wrote: »

Appreciate your opinion Colossus. You have to bear in mind that Luttrellstown has very few members now so comp days are poor also.

Agreed and it's a big negative factor concerning Luttrellstown. Can't understand why they don't set their membership at something like €1500 and increase member numbers to 400 from their existing base of something like 100. It's a pity as the course is class and it would be very convenient for me travel wise.

oliverwoof

Where are you based Colossus? I agree that travel is a factor. I have being looking at alternative options but there are so many things to factor in when making a choice. The worst thing is to decide on somewhere based solely on price. I would hate to pay subs for a course with poor comps, with temporary winter greens in play for 3 months of the year, limited access to busy teetimes (Castleknock) and a whole host of other factors. I do find Carton to be very fairly priced considering that for the subs you get unlimited access to 2 championship courses. It just seems impossible to get somewhere accessible and quality for under 2k. Now if I could just get Carton for about €1,800-€1,900 then i think thats a very decent deal.

pauldoo

I think your comp fees are also covered and you might get free range balls!

If I had the time, I would love to do this

oliverwoof

You have to pay comp fees on top of subs paul, but thats pretty much the same with every course. They do have a free range area which is open from apr-oct.

IanPoulter

I believe the Comp fees are €150 per year which is quite reasonable as it covers you for all comps in the year. I pay about €350 in comp fees per year

oliverwoof

Comp fees are €120 per year and cover you for all weekend and midweek competitions. Prizes are generous too, which is money onto your card that you can use in the pro-shop or bar. €350 seems to be the norm for most comp fees, or a tenner for each comp you play, which works out approx the same if you play for 8 months a year.

TheFarneyman

795 for full membership in Hollystown, obviously not Carton House standard but for that sort of money in Co Dublin is excellent i think!

Nedser101

TheFarneyman wrote: »

795 for full membership in Hollystown, obviously not Carton House standard but for that sort of money in Co Dublin is excellent i think!

Played hollystown last week ,very poor I think there getting it ready for the national ploughing championship next year .no fairways just rough

GreeBo

Ok lets bring this conversation back to membership chat only please.
I dont like the direction it was heading and dont want to have to lock it.

gmcevoy

Rathcore golf club is a smashing course at only 859. payment options available through standing order over a period of time or pay in full by end of feb and get it for 759. never in need of temporary greens and will only close due to severe frost. 5 euro comp fees and great prizes... well worth the money for the condition of the course

valc

Carton Subs confirmed at 2,300 for 2013.
A 5% discount will apply if paid before 31 Dec.
Also incl if paid before 31 Dec is 4 free green fees & overnight voucher for Carton hotel.
Membership of GUI academy is incl for all members.
20% discount in clubhouse & pro shop also applies.
Plus free green fees at Mount Juliet & Fota on weekdays only.

For 2013 there will also be free tickets for Irish Open.

A new deal introduced in 2013 - A couple / partners membership subscription for 3,450.

valc

superhooper

Interesting article in Examiner on entrace charges. The race to the bottom is a concern for clubs!!

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/saying-goodbye-to-golf-clubs-hello-money-213673.html

FixdePitchmark

Thanks for that article.

It show the problem with anybody paying any joining fee. The clubs with them are even dropping, Look at The Island , was 20 K now 7 K.

It is a high risk putting that sort of money into something dropping that fast.

Also , if you put 10 K + into something and it ends up at 2 or 3 K , you would be sick. Not to mention it could even close.

GreeBo

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Thanks for that article.

It show the problem with anybody paying any joining fee. The clubs with them are even dropping, Look at The Island , was 20 K now 7 K.

It is a high risk putting that sort of money into something dropping that fast.

Also , if you put 10 K + into something and it ends up at 2 or 3 K , you would be sick. Not to mention it could even close.

Why is it high risk?
As long as the club survives then you got exactly what you paid for.
You cant complain if someone 2 years later pays less than you did. The guys 2 years earlier probably paid more.

Also, unless you are buying a share then its not a financial investment, you cant and shouldnt track the value of it as such.

FixdePitchmark

GreeBo wrote: »

Why is it high risk?
As long as the club survives then you got exactly what you paid for.
You cant complain if someone 2 years later pays less than you did. The guys 2 years earlier probably paid more.

Also, unless you are buying a share then its not a financial investment, you cant and shouldnt track the value of it as such.

I'd call losing money on something worth nothing a problem. Particularly if the dogs on the street , you and everybody was telling you it is worth nothing.

I'm sure the lads who paid 20 , 30 K can look at it the way you do , (I doubt it).

GreeBo

How are you losing this money?
You paid to join a club, you joined and are now a member...you have lost nothing?

FixdePitchmark

GreeBo wrote: »

How are you losing this money?
You paid to join a club, you joined and are now a member...you have lost nothing?

Ok , if you want to think that grand (or 17 grand).

I won't be spending / losing money to be in a club. I'l pay as I go or join somewhere with no joining fee - then I will buy a car with the money I did not spend/lose.

IanPoulter

GreeBo wrote: »

Why is it high risk?
As long as the club survives then you got exactly what you paid for.
You cant complain if someone 2 years later pays less than you did. The guys 2 years earlier probably paid more.

Also, unless you are buying a share then its not a financial investment, you cant and shouldnt track the value of it as such.

It's high risk putting any money into any golf club. It can go belly up after you've paid your money. Even annual subs are risky now. Probably better off paying by direct debit - that way you get what you pay for.

Webbs

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Ok , if you want to think that grand (or 17 grand).

I won't be spending / losing money to be in a club. I'l pay as I go or join somewhere with no joining fee - then I will buy a car with the money I did not spend/lose.

And in 10yrs time how much is your 'investment' in the car worth?

I can see the argument for both sides, but if a club is in a healthy position and they charge joining fee that will only benefit the club and hence its members then if you can afford it good luck to people and the club.

GreeBo

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Ok , if you want to think that grand (or 17 grand).

I won't be spending / losing money to be in a club. I'l pay as I go or join somewhere with no joining fee - then I will buy a car with the money I did not spend/lose.

I dont think you are getting my point.

If the club remains open then whats the problem? Someone else is getting the same thing for cheaper then you? That happens all the time. That car that you bought instead will be way cheaper in two years time than it is now, so you just "lost" money there too.

Again, explain how, other than the club folding, you lose this money if the club remains open and you remain a member?

Jaysoose

GreeBo wrote: »

I dont think you are getting my point.

If the club remains open then whats the problem? Someone else is getting the same thing for cheaper then you? That happens all the time. That car that you bought instead will be way cheaper in two years time than it is now, so you just "lost" money there too.

Again, explain how, other than the club folding, you lose this money if the club remains open and you remain a member?

Its the same logic applied be people that are in negative equity..they are paying the same mortgage but the perception is they have lost something even though they are still living in the exact same set of bricks they invested in.

Its up to the individual if they want to pay entrance fees and you cant then turn round and complain if somebody else gets a better deal in a few years.

pinkdoubleeagle

Joined Carton about three weeks ago. So far so good. Two smashing courses in great condition

thewobbler

Jaysoose wrote: »

Its the same logic applied be people that are in negative equity..they are paying the same mortgage but the perception is they have lost something even though they are still living in the exact same set of bricks they invested in.

Its up to the individual if they want to pay entrance fees and you cant then turn round and complain if somebody else gets a better deal in a few years.

I wouldn't say it's the same.

A house, when it is paid off, is an asset. It can (normally) be turned into cash relatively quickly. You might receive less than what you paid for it, but it's still an asset.

Entrance fees are a cost of membership. It is only when you quit or die, that the full cost of amortisation becomes clear. I'd like to think that the majority of golfers will reach that point and regard it as money well spent and enjoyed, and not dwell on someone else having enjoyed a smaller cost.

Some people did get badly burned during the Tiger years. But they weren't paying membership fees, they were making investments. The two things should be understood separately.

Jaysoose

thewobbler wrote: »

I wouldn't say it's the same.

A house, when it is paid off, is an asset. It can (normally) be turned into cash relatively quickly. You might receive less than what you paid for it, but it's still an asset.

Entrance fees are a cost of membership. It is only when you quit or die, that the full cost of amortisation becomes clear. I'd like to think that the majority of golfers will reach that point and regard it as money well spent and enjoyed, and not dwell on someone else having enjoyed a smaller cost.

Some people did get badly burned during the Tiger years. But they weren't paying membership fees, they were making investments. The two things should be understood separately.

Obviously there are differences but its the logic of somebody getting a better rate down the line im talking about more-so than the perceived investment and or return/loss.

If somebody has paid an entrance fee then a guy comes along in completely different market conditions and gets a better rate did the initial member get a bad deal or was he simply operating in a different market?

rafared

oliverwoof wrote: »

Hi, is anyone considering membership in Carton for 2013? I think subs are €2,300 for the year. If so, please contact me, i'd be interested in hearing from you.

Thanks

Cheap at half the price;). Jokes aside I couldnt afford it. Factor in travel and comps cost on top. I know its two courses but still too expensive in my opinion.

Redzah

GreeBo wrote: »

I dont think you are getting my point.

If the club remains open then whats the problem? Someone else is getting the same thing for cheaper then you? That happens all the time. That car that you bought instead will be way cheaper in two years time than it is now, so you just "lost" money there too.

Again, explain how, other than the club folding, you lose this money if the club remains open and you remain a member?

Greebo, its the fact that for the most part you could join a equal if not better course with maybe an extra 15-20mins commute that has no joining fee and a similiar if not cheaper annual sub. Then you are left with the cash that you would have spent on the club and you still are a member of a golf club.

If I had a choice of spending 10-20k on joining a golf club that is most convenient and in decent condition or spend nothing to join a golf club in equal condition that requires an extra 15 mins commute then it is a no brainer to keep the cash and join the club with no joining fee.

Also, life is uncertain and there are loads of scenarios where it would be a silly investment to spend 10-20k on a joining fee when there are so many options out there for nil;

1. As mentioned above by you, the club closes.
2. You lose your job and cannot afford annual membership and therefore cannot make use of your joining investment.
3. You are required to move to a different county or country and can no longer avail of your membership.
4. You sustain an injury that you cannot play golf anymore
5. You die suddenly and your loved ones have 10-20k less to help with their annual and necessary expenditure.
6. One of your loved ones gets into financial trouble (eg. personal injury cost, loss of job, gambling addiction, drugs etc.) and you may not have the significant funds to help as it was spent on a golf club.
7. You have another child and as a result a new house is needed. The 10-20k which would have been a significant down payment is gone on your golf.

Unless you are loaded and single (or just selfish) then it may be difficult to justify spending this sort of cash on a golf club when you can join a competitor for nothing

GreeBo

Redzah wrote: »

Greebo, its the fact that for the most part you could join a equal if not better course with maybe an extra 15-20mins commute that has no joining fee and a similiar if not cheaper annual sub. Then you are left with the cash that you would have spent on the club and you still are a member of a golf club.

If I had a choice of spending 10-20k on joining a golf club that is most convenient and in decent condition or spend nothing to join a golf club in equal condition that requires an extra 15 mins commute then it is a no brainer to keep the cash and join the club with no joining fee.

Also, life is uncertain and there are loads of scenarios where it would be a silly investment to spend 10-20k on a joining fee when there are so many options out there for nil;

1. As mentioned above by you, the club closes.
2. You lose your job and cannot afford annual membership and therefore cannot make use of your joining investment.
3. You are required to move to a different county or country and can no longer avail of your membership.
4. You sustain an injury that you cannot play golf anymore
5. You die suddenly and your loved ones have 10-20k less to help with their annual and necessary expenditure.
6. One of your loved ones gets into financial trouble (eg. personal injury cost, loss of job, gambling addiction, drugs etc.) and you may not have the significant funds to help as it was spent on a golf club.
7. You have another child and as a result a new house is needed. The 10-20k which would have been a significant down payment is gone on your golf.

Unless you are loaded and single (or just selfish) then it may be difficult to justify spending this sort of cash on a golf club when you can join a competitor for nothing

Other than #1 (which I already covered) what do any of your other points have to do with "losing" money by joining a club? The same argument could be applied to purchasing anything.
With respect, I think you have missed the point of this conversation.

strokes1

GreeBo wrote: »

Other than #1 (which I already covered) what do any of your other points have to do with "losing" money by joining a club? The same argument could be applied to purchasing anything.
With respect, I think you have missed the point of this conversation.

I've been dipping in to this thread for the last few days... Good god greebo your an arrogant sod! See yis all in 3 weeks post ban!! Redzah your post is spot on btw!

Peterdalkey

Ah lads, golf is supposed to be our happy time. One guy might be happy to drive a Micra but his twin nothing less than an executive saloon. The same applies to a suit from M&S or Hugo Boss. It is all about personal preference and how one can match that to one's own financial circumstances.
I recently left a fabulous golf club to join another superb course 35 miles nearer to home and work, no joining fee but double the annual sub. Driving a 22 mpg diesel guzzler and playing twice a week, I am 3K a year better off and have to devote 90 minutes less to each round. They are both member owned traditional clubs.
The debate that we perhaps should be having is in relation to the longer term security of any club we are thinking of joining. In the main, but not exclusively, the major financial peril seems to hang over the heavily borrowed commercially owned courses, where the club is effectively only a tenant. The actual owner is in it purely for the money, and God only knows what debt they have secured against it. The club itself has effectively no assets to borrow against in these hard times and spread the financial pain over a longer term. Contrast this to what happens in the typical member owned traditional sporting golf club at times of financial pressure.

At the end of the day each person will weigh up all the considerations and choose the option that suits themselves best. What anyone else thinks of their decision is simply irrelevant!

On a brighter note, there has never been a better time to join or switch to a new club with all the deals out there. Many options that were closed even to the well healed in the boom are now within the budget of many more true golfing enthusiasts, that can only be good.


Cheers

Peter

FixdePitchmark

Peterdalkey wrote: »

Ah lads, golf is supposed to be our happy time. One guy might be happy to drive a Micra but his twin nothing less than an executive saloon. The same applies to a suit from M&S or Hugo Boss. It is all about personal preference and how one can match that to one's own financial circumstances.
I recently left a fabulous golf club to join another superb course 35 miles nearer to home and work, no joining fee but double the annual sub. Driving a 22 mpg diesel guzzler and playing twice a week, I am 3K a year better off and have to devote 90 minutes less to each round. They are both member owned traditional clubs.
The debate that we perhaps should be having is in relation to the longer term security of any club we are thinking of joining. In the main, but not exclusively, the major financial peril seems to hang over the heavily borrowed commercially owned courses, where the club is effectively only a tenant. The actual owner is in it purely for the money, and God only knows what debt they have secured against it. The club itself has effectively no assets to borrow against in these hard times and spread the financial pain over a longer term. Contrast this to what happens in the typical member owned traditional sporting golf club at times of financial pressure.

At the end of the day each person will weigh up all the considerations and choose the option that suits themselves best. What anyone else thinks of their decision is simply irrelevant!

On a brighter note, there has never been a better time to join or switch to a new club with all the deals out there. Many options that were closed even to the well healed in the boom are now within the budget of many more true golfing enthusiasts, that can only be good.


Cheers

Peter

Peter , great post. I'm getting the whole freedom thing now.

But , can you please explain the 22 mpg thing :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek: - What was it , a diesel F1 car.

How much was that costing, never mind the golf.

Peterdalkey

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Peter , great post. I'm getting the whole freedom thing now.

But , can you please explain the 22 mpg thing :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek: - What was it , a diesel F1 car.

How much was that costing, never mind the golf.

The only difference between men and boys is the price of their toys. It is an auld 3.5 diesel V8 jeep. Like I said it is all about personal preferences and priorities, like the golf. You will note I kept women/wives out of it, but I do have an ex that makes the golf, jeep and another toy look positively parsimonious!,,

Cheers

Peter

FixdePitchmark

Peterdalkey wrote: »

The only difference between men and boys is the price of their toys. It is an auld 3.5 diesel V8 jeep. Like I said it is all about personal preferences and priorities, like the golf. You will note I kept women/wives out of it, but I do have an ex that makes the golf, jeep and another toy look positively parsimonious!,,

Cheers

Peter

Fair enough, I will go along with that -

(if i knew what the **** persimmon golf clubs had to do with it)

Peterdalkey

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Fair enough, I will go along with that -

(if i knew what the **** persimmon golf clubs had to do with it)

Let me clarify, it is a state of being not a hitting stick

par·si·mo·ny   [pahr-suh-moh-nee] Show IPA
noun
extreme or excessive economy or frugality; stinginess; niggardliness.

Peter :pac:

Redzah

GreeBo wrote: »

Other than #1 (which I already covered) what do any of your other points have to do with "losing" money by joining a club? The same argument could be applied to purchasing anything.
With respect, I think you have missed the point of this conversation.

All points have to do with losing money by joining a golf club with a significant joining fee. Golf club with huge membership fees cannot be compared to purchasing anything as most things that you purchase either add value to an existing item or have a residual value with a saleable market. Furthermore, many purchases can be taken with somebody upon a relocation or passed on upon death or incapacity. These golf clubs that charge extortionate joining fees do not have any of these options. This is then made worse by the fact that there is a substitute good with nil cost(I.e no joining fee).

I fully understand the point of this conversation greebo. I struggle to understand your justification of paying joining fees in the current market with so many other options, it seems to be borne by a bitterness that perhaps you may have been stung by this and you have coped with it by justifying it to yourself to the point that you believe you we're right to pay an extortionate amount.

kiers47

Redzah wrote: »

All points have to do with losing money by joining a golf club with a significant joining fee. Golf club with huge membership fees cannot be compared to purchasing anything as most things that you purchase either add value to an existing item or have a residual value with a saleable market. Furthermore, many purchases can be taken with somebody upon a relocation or passed on upon death or incapacity. These golf clubs that charge extortionate joining fees do not have any of these options. This is then made worse by the fact that there is a substitute good with nil cost(I.e no joining fee).

I fully understand the point of this conversation greebo. I struggle to understand your justification of paying joining fees in the current market with so many other options, it seems to be borne by a bitterness that perhaps you may have been stung by this and you have coped with it by justifying it to yourself to the point that you believe you we're right to pay an extortionate amount.

+1
Spot on!! Great post!!

GreeBo

Redzah wrote: »

All points have to do with losing money by joining a golf club with a significant joining fee. Golf club with huge membership fees cannot be compared to purchasing anything as most things that you purchase either add value to an existing item or have a residual value with a saleable market. Furthermore, many purchases can be taken with somebody upon a relocation or passed on upon death or incapacity. These golf clubs that charge extortionate joining fees do not have any of these options. This is then made worse by the fact that there is a substitute good with nil cost(I.e no joining fee).

You are not losing this money, you are buying something, a service/amenity/membership.
If you pay for a service, receive that service and then the price of that service drops, how have you lost money?
My gym has cut prices, have I now suddenly lost money from the years where I paid and frequented the gym?
Several golf clubs offer a share, which can be sold and/or passed on.
Substitute are just that. They are not the same as the original item.
I could not find another club that would equate to my own club (for less OR more of a joining fee)

Redzah wrote: »

I fully understand the point of this conversation greebo. I struggle to understand your justification of paying joining fees in the current market with so many other options, it seems to be borne by a bitterness that perhaps you may have been stung by this and you have coped with it by justifying it to yourself to the point that you believe you we're right to pay an extortionate amount.

Justification doesnt come into it, there was a claim that money was being lost.
I categorically refute this, you are still a member. You have lost nothing.

You seem to think that I am arguing that there are cheaper options available, I'm not, but that doesnt equate to losing money. You might save money by going to another club, but thats a totally different argument.
/edit As for justifying joining fees, its trivial for a club to justify them, they need the money. End of.

As for being bitter, my joining fee is currently working out at about €600/year and perhaps €8/round since I paid it.
Its also getting lower and lower as time goes by, if thats cause for bitterness then count me in!

blue note

I've just read this page, but I think it's enough to get the gist of the argument. Essentially, Greebo is entirely right. Don't get me wrong, I'd have sympathy for a guy who paid a large entrance fee that was abandoned. Indeed, I played with a guy in my home course that joined a couple of months before we got rid of it. I felt a bit sorry for him that he paid that few grand that people now don't have to pay, however, that was the price and he was happy to pay it. I don't buy a jumper before Christmas and ask for a refund after Christmas because they're now selling them for less!

And with regard to points 2-7 above - what's your point? Someone willingly spent money on something and their circumstances change. It happens all the time, you can't go back then and request refunds because the price has gone down and you could do with the money back. Or if you can please correct me, because I could go collecting!

IanPoulter

If you pay €5k to join a club and then 3 months later the joining fee is abolished I would say you've lost €5k. Simply put - you've jumped the gun and if you waited 3 months you could have avoided wasting €5k.

On the other hand, if you've paid €5k and then some years later (say 5 or 6 years) the joining fee is abolished - well thats just changing times and you've got some value for your fee over that 5/6 years (which happened to me).

You would want to be some class of an idiot ( or very wealthy)to pay a joining fee today when courses like Kileen Castle, Carton House, Moyvalley who charged exhorbitant joining fees in their day have ditched the joining fee. The Malahides of this world will have to follow suit in time as their older members retire.

blue note

IanPoulter wrote: »

If you pay €5k to join a club and then 3 months later the joining fee is abolished I would say you've lost €5k. Simply put - you've jumped the gun and if you waited 3 months you could have avoided wasting €5k.

On the other hand, if you've paid €5k and then some years later (say 5 or 6 years) the joining fee is abolished - well thats just changing times and you've got some value for your fee over that 5/6 years (which happened to me).

What if you bought a driver for €300 and then a new model came out and yours was reduced to €200? Have you then lost €100?

Ah, it's a disagreement over a definition anyway. Maybe we just mean different things by "lost".

IanPoulter

blue note wrote: »

What if you bought a driver for €300 and then a new model came out and yours was reduced to €200? Have you then lost €100?

Ah, it's a disagreement over a definition anyway. Maybe we just mean different things by "lost".

It's all down to the timing. If it's reduced the next day then yes you've lost €100 because you only got 1 day's play with it for that €100. If it's reduced 6 months later then no I don't think you've lost anything.

GreeBo

IanPoulter wrote: »

It's all down to the timing. If it's reduced the next day then yes you've lost €100 because you only got 1 day's play with it for that €100. If it's reduced 6 months later then no I don't think you've lost anything.

I dont think that argument works though.
Where is the line?
3 months? 1 month? 1 week but you played every day that week?
Either you believe you have somehow lost money or you havent, I dont believe time can alter the argument.

Here's another way of looking at it; if I pay 5k to join and next month its 10k, have I "found/made" 5k? (assuming I stay a member of the club and we are not talking about selling a share/membership/etc)
If not then I cant possibly have lost 5k if the price goes down.
There was a price, I was "happy" to pay it and I paid it. What the price does after that is irrelevant, we are not trading on the stock market here.

brick tamland

IanPoulter wrote: »

The Malahides of this world will have to follow suit in time as their older members retire.

This is the thing for me. The vast majority of younger golfers wont pay joining fees, not now not 20 years time. The clubs that have these joining fees will be struggling too just further down the line, when the older membership they have all leave/retire/whatever.

IanPoulter

GreeBo wrote: »

I dont think that argument works though.
Where is the line?
3 months? 1 month? 1 week but you played every day that week?
Either you believe you have somehow lost money or you havent, I dont believe time can alter the argument.

Here's another way of looking at it; if I pay 5k to join and next month its 10k, have I "found/made" 5k? (assuming I stay a member of the club and we are not talking about selling a share/membership/etc)
If not then I cant possibly have lost 5k if the price goes down.
There was a price, I was "happy" to pay it and I paid it. What the price does after that is irrelevant, we are not trading on the stock market here.

I forgot - you're alway right.

PARlance

Jaysus lads!

If a bear ****s in the woods, has he just gone for a nice dump
Or lost his last meal?

rafared

GreeBo wrote: »

I dont think that argument works though.
Where is the line?
3 months? 1 month? 1 week but you played every day that week?
Either you believe you have somehow lost money or you havent, I dont believe time can alter the argument.

Here's another way of looking at it; if I pay 5k to join and next month its 10k, have I "found/made" 5k? (assuming I stay a member of the club and we are not talking about selling a share/membership/etc)
If not then I cant possibly have lost 5k if the price goes down.
There was a price, I was "happy" to pay it and I paid it. What the price does after that is irrelevant, we are not trading on the stock market here.

I can see your point Greebo although I dont totally agree. Its not that you loose money but you pay lets say 5k to join and one year later the same package is 2k. By holding on for a year your initial outlay is less.
Example in practice.....a year and a half ago I paid 1500E for annual membership in a local club. As part of joining up I had a meeting with the captain, vice captain and then comittee. We had an informal chat about golf, my golfing history, course etiquette ect. During the chat the guys encouraged me to consider share membership for 5K instead of annual membership which I declined. They were of the opinion that the cost was as low as it could ever go and represented great value at 5k. I declined and opted for annual membership. Now I was tempted to bite but Im glad I didnt because two months ago I got a letter offering the share for 2K.
Had I paid 5k it would have pissed me off to know that just over a year later I could have gotten the same share for 3K less.
I know you are looking at the broader picture of paying the cost at the time regardless of what happens in the future but not everyone looks at it that way.

FixdePitchmark

GreeBo wrote: »

I dont think that argument works though.
Where is the line?
3 months? 1 month? 1 week but you played every day that week?
Either you believe you have somehow lost money or you havent, I dont believe time can alter the argument.

Here's another way of looking at it; if I pay 5k to join and next month its 10k, have I "found/made" 5k? (assuming I stay a member of the club and we are not talking about selling a share/membership/etc)
If not then I cant possibly have lost 5k if the price goes down.
There was a price, I was "happy" to pay it and I paid it. What the price does after that is irrelevant, we are not trading on the stock market here.

When we are talking 5, 10 , 20 K - it is at a level of trading on the stock market. It is a life times worth of money for some.

In the stock market you would not buy high and sell low. That is why nobody with any sort of head would pay 20 K for something that is reducing by half every year at the moment.

It is just a choice for some people to wait for the January sales.

GreeBo , would you really tell a freind to put 20 K into a golf club in the morning. A point made by Redzah was very good. Who can say they will have a good job or be living near a golf club they have put 20 K into in 5 years.

Milkers

GreeBo wrote: »

There was a price, I was "happy" to pay it and I paid it. What the price does after that is irrelevant, we are not trading on the stock market here.

In fairness to Greebo he is making a good argument based along the lines of the emotional attachment/feeling of "losing" vs "gaining" money. I'd imagine this is how the majority of people view money and utility. Of course while not being truly rational it does seem logical to them.

However in a truly rational sense it makes no difference if you are spending it on the stock market, a golf membership, milk, a car, insurance etc. money is money. Your expectation of what utility you are receiving in exchange for the money might be different but that's just psychology. If you pay for a good or service and either at the same time or a short time later an equivalent good/service is available for significantly less you are financially a net loser*. If you don't accept this then you can probably make an argument that nothing in life causes you financial loss (yes I burnt that big pile of cash in the bonfire on Halloween but at the time I was happy to burn it and the green smoke was worth it). Rationally there is no debate.

*you can of course argue the semantics of "equivalent" and "short time" etc.