solicitors fee's

dupedithink

ok long story short, had a rta 2 years ago, went to a solicitor, told me his fees would be 1-1.5k approx, assessed by piab at 14k, solicitor charges close to 4k, i feel i have been duped by him

Jacknory

dupedithink wrote: »

ok long story short, had a rta 2 years ago, went to a solicitor, told me his fees would be 1-1.5k approx, assessed by piab at 14k, solicitor charges close to 4k, i feel i have been duped by him

Did your solicitor furnish you with a section 68 letter when you engaged with him? By law he has to provide you with this as it outlines his charges. If he didn't I'd highlight this to him and refuse to pay the €4K. Are PIAB sending you a cheque or have you signed anything to pay it to your solicitor first?

dupedithink

have found a copy of the section 68 document, it more or less says i agree to reimburse solicitor for doctors reports ect. but doesn't say anything about his fee, his fee is 2500 + 575 vat. postage, correspondence, medical report, injury bord fee, garda asstract, motor tax office search all adds up to over 700, no problem with the expenses part but he never gave me a figure of over 3000 as his professional fee, also checked my paperwork and when i engaged solicitor 2 years ago i signed a letter drafted to injuries bord saying sloicitor was acting on my behalf, so i guess the money will be paid to my solicitor

ResearchWill

dupedithink wrote: »

ok long story short, had a rta 2 years ago, went to a solicitor, told me his fees would be 1-1.5k approx, assessed by piab at 14k, solicitor charges close to 4k, i feel i have been duped by him

What does that 4k fee relate to. Is it all solicitors fees or is there also medical reports, any other report plus final bill would also have VAT.

Example Solicitors Fee 2,000 plus PIAB fee €50 plus Medical Report 350 plus report from Eng 400 plus 200 postage and petties total 3000 plus VAT @23% total 3690.

Jacknory

dupedithink wrote: »

have found a copy of the section 68 document, it more or less says i agree to reimburse solicitor for doctors reports ect. but doesn't say anything about his fee, his fee is 2500 + 575 vat. postage, correspondence, medical report, injury bord fee, garda asstract, motor tax office search all adds up to over 700, no problem with the expenses part but he never gave me a figure of over 3000 as his professional fee, also checked my paperwork and when i engaged solicitor 2 years ago i signed a letter drafted to injuries bord saying sloicitor was acting on my behalf, so i guess the money will be paid to my solicitor

You could look to appeal the fee to the taxing master in the law society (I think thats what he's called). The 700 you mentioned is for expenses incurred by your solicitor so is the remaining 1800 made up of his time? What is his hourly rate according to the section 68 and based on that how many hours has he completed.

ResearchWill

dupedithink wrote: »

have found a copy of the section 68 document, it more or less says i agree to reimburse solicitor for doctors reports ect. but doesn't say anything about his fee, his fee is 2500 + 575 vat. postage, correspondence, medical report, injury bord fee, garda asstract, motor tax office search all adds up to over 700, no problem with the expenses part but he never gave me a figure of over 3000 as his professional fee, also checked my paperwork and when i engaged solicitor 2 years ago i signed a letter drafted to injuries bord saying sloicitor was acting on my behalf, so i guess the money will be paid to my solicitor

So he charged a professional fee of 2500, which is 500 more than you agreed, I would if I was you explain he said between 1500 to 2000 you think the 500 is too much.

dupedithink

Jacknory wrote: »

You could look to appeal the fee to the taxing master in the law society (I think thats what he's called). The 700 you mentioned is for expenses incurred by your solicitor so is the remaining 1800 made up of his time? What is his hourly rate according to the section 68 and based on that how many hours has he completed.

his time was 2500 + vat, the 700 is on top of this, he doesnt have an hourly rate on the section 68

dupedithink

ResearchWill wrote: »

So he charged a professional fee of 2500, which is 500 more than you agreed, I would if I was you explain he said between 1500 to 2000 you think the 500 is too much.

he said between 1000 to 1500, he never mentioned vat (but i guess they never do) so from expecting to pay up to 1500 i am paying 3075

ResearchWill

dupedithink wrote: »

he said between 1000 to 1500, he never mentioned vat (but i guess they never do) so from expecting to pay up to 1500 i am paying 3075

I agree with you about the VAT, solicitors and many others in business never mention it but then again they don't have to as all the get to keep is their fee.

Jacknory

dupedithink wrote: »

his time was 2500 + vat, the 700 is on top of this, he doesnt have an hourly rate on the section 68

I'd ask for a breakdown of his time to see where the figure came from

McCrack

Any practitioner doing PIAB work for €1,000-1,500 plus VAT is underselling themselves.

I would say to the OP that you are being charged the upper end but by no means excessively provided that fee includes outlay already mentioned by Researchwill, things such as medical report fees that your are responsible for.

dupedithink

McCrack wrote: »

Any practitioner doing PIAB work for €1,000-1,500 plus VAT is underselling themselves.

I would say to the OP that you are being charged the upper end but by no means excessively provided that fee includes outlay already mentioned by Researchwill, things such as medical report fees that your are responsible for.

no the fee is 2500 + vat, it doesn't include things such as medical report fees, these additional fees are over 700 bring the total charge to just under 3800

ResearchWill

McCrack wrote: »

Any practitioner doing PIAB work for €1,000-1,500 plus VAT is underselling themselves.

I would say to the OP that you are being charged the upper end but by no means excessively provided that fee includes outlay already mentioned by Researchwill, things such as medical report fees that your are responsible for.

While I will not nor should I comment on the charge for work without any knowledge of what was done. I do think the OP has a fair point on the €500 as he was told the charge would be €1,500 to €2,000 to go 25% over budget needs explaining.

dupedithink

ResearchWill wrote: »

While I will not nor should I comment on the charge for work without any knowledge of what was done. I do think the OP has a fair point on the €500 as he was told the charge would be €1,500 to €2,000 to go 25% over budget needs explaining.

it was actually 1000 to 1500 he told me on taking the case, check my op

ResearchWill

dupedithink wrote: »

it was actually 1000 to 1500 he told me on taking the case, check my op

I am still agreeing with you.

McCrack

ResearchWill wrote: »

While I will not nor should I comment on the charge for work without any knowledge of what was done. I do think the OP has a fair point on the €500 as he was told the charge would be €1,500 to €2,000 to go 25% over budget needs explaining.

Yes but I was basing that on what the OP said at the beginning; he was quoted €1,000-1,500 plus VATfor the IB stage.

To quote that is very much on the low side particularly if the client goes onto accept the assessment if there is one.

Personally I think it's an acceptable fee if the matter rolls onto proceedings and the solicitor can recoup on his party/party costs but otherwise it's too low.

Reloc8

dupedithink wrote: »

ok long story short, had a rta 2 years ago, went to a solicitor, told me his fees would be 1-1.5k approx, assessed by piab at 14k, solicitor charges close to 4k, i feel i have been duped by him

If not happy to pay him go to law society and complain.

Jacknory

It wouldn't be the first time that a solicitor initially quotes one sum but charges a very different one. From supplying services to the legal sector I learned that its one profession not to thrust no matter what the adds say about your solicitor being on your side. They're only on one side......their own!!!!

ResearchWill

McCrack wrote: »

Yes but I was basing that on what the OP said at the beginning; he was quoted €1,000-1,500 plus VATfor the IB stage.

To quote that is very much on the low side particularly if the client goes onto accept the assessment if there is one.

Personally I think it's an acceptable fee if the matter rolls onto proceedings and the solicitor can recoup on his party/party costs but otherwise it's too low.

The usuall fee I have heard for a standard PIAB claim is from €1000 to €2000, with many at or around €1500 plus VAT. Without knowing the work involved I can not say if this fee of €2500 was fair or other wise. It may very well be cheap. My only point is after giving a price there would have to be very good reasons to exceed it.

Procrastastudy

Jacknory wrote: »

It wouldn't be the first time that a solicitor initially quotes one sum but charges a very different one. From supplying services to the legal sector I learned that its one profession not to thrust no matter what the adds say about your solicitor being on your side. They're only on one side......their own!!!!

Don't know about solicitors but there are plenty of barristers I'd thrust given half a chance

McCrack

ResearchWill wrote: »

The usuall fee I have heard for a standard PIAB claim is from €1000 to €2000, with many at or around €1500 plus VAT. Without knowing the work involved I can not say if this fee of €2500 was fair or other wise. It may very well be cheap. My only point is after giving a price there would have to be very good reasons to exceed it.

I am of the view €2,500 plus VAT is reasonable for IB work where the IB makes an Assessment as the OP has indicated has happended.

If the IB has made as Assessment it means the application went through the motions and the work that goes with that.

I would suggest a fee of €2k plus VAT at a minimum in such a situation. €2.5k plus VAT is not excessive.

For a solicitor to quote €1,000 to €1,500 plus VAT for PIAB work at the outset to a client is silly, he/she will not know at that point what stance the proposed respondents will adopt to the IB. There are also other reasons why it's silly but I think I've said enough here!.

Jacknory

Procrastastudy wrote: »

Don't know about solicitors but there are plenty of barristers I'd thrust given half a chance

.........very good

Jacknory

McCrack wrote: »

I am of the view €2,500 plus VAT is reasonable for IB work where the IB makes an Assessment as the OP has indicated has happended.

If the IB has made as Assessment it means the application went through the motions and the work that goes with that.

I would suggest a fee of €2k plus VAT at a minimum in such a situation. €2.5k plus VAT is not excessive.

For a solicitor to quote €1,000 to €1,500 plus VAT for PIAB work at the outset to a client is silly, he/she will not know at that point what stance the proposed respondents will adopt to the IB. There are also other reasons why it's silly but I think I've said enough here!.

At the very least a solicitor should contact his/her client to inform them when the suggested fee has been exceeded. I suppose that would not be acting in their invoices......sorry I mean clients best interests

Jacknory

dupedithink wrote: »

ok long story short, had a rta 2 years ago, went to a solicitor, told me his fees would be 1-1.5k approx, assessed by piab at 14k, solicitor charges close to 4k, i feel i have been duped by him

Your first mistake was going to a solicitor as there is not that much to do if you did it yourself

Pat Mustard

Jacknory wrote: »

From supplying services to the legal sector I learned that its one profession not to thrust no matter what the adds say about your solicitor being on your side. They're only on one side......their own!!!!

Hey man, I'm selling some tinfoil hats, interested?

Jacknory wrote: »

Your first mistake was going to a solicitor as there is not that much to do if you did it yourself

Some super advice here. I diagnosed myself with an obscure disease last week and I cured it myself with some snake oil from the internet. I saved a fortune in doctor's fees. What a shower of money grubbing quacks.

dupedithink wrote: »

ok long story short, had a rta 2 years ago, went to a solicitor, told me his fees would be 1-1.5k approx, assessed by piab at 14k, solicitor charges close to 4k, i feel i have been duped by him

dupedithink wrote: »

have found a copy of the section 68 document, it more or less says i agree to reimburse solicitor for doctors reports ect. but doesn't say anything about his fee, his fee is 2500 + 575 vat. postage, correspondence, medical report, injury bord fee, garda asstract, motor tax office search all adds up to over 700, no problem with the expenses part but he never gave me a figure of over 3000 as his professional fee, also checked my paperwork and when i engaged solicitor 2 years ago i signed a letter drafted to injuries bord saying sloicitor was acting on my behalf, so i guess the money will be paid to my solicitor

You still have your s.68 letter. That's good. I think that you should go and have a chat with your solicitor, show him the letter and remind him of his verbal estimate of fees. It could be that that he has forgotten that conversation.

At the very least, you should ask him why his fee has increased from the estimate he gave you.

Communication is key.

Jacknory

The Mustard wrote: »

Some super advice here. I diagnosed myself with an obscure disease last week and I cured it myself with some snake oil from the internet. I saved a fortune in doctor's fees. What a shower of money grubbing quacks.

.

It was a statement not advice :rolleyes:

Glad to see that you are in to alternative medicine although that obscure disease has you spouting some awful rubbish!!!!

Pat Mustard

Jacknory wrote: »

It was a statement not advice :rolleyes:

Glad to see that you are in to alternative medicine although that obscure disease has you spouting some awful rubbish!!!!

It seems that you espouse alternative legal advice. Good for you!

Answer me this - if someone applies to the Injuries Board for assessment of damages, how do you suggest that they should gauge whether an assessment is fair or not?

McCrack

The Mustard wrote: »

It seems that you espouse alternative legal advice. Good for you!

Answer me this - if someone applies to the Injuries Board for assessment of damages, how do you suggest that they should gauge whether an assessment is fair or not?

I really would not bother, just look back over his posts on this thread.

Jacknory

The Mustard wrote: »

It seems that you espouse alternative legal advice. Good for you!

Answer me this - if someone applies to the Injuries Board for assessment of damages, how do you suggest that they should gauge whether an assessment is fair or not?

By going to a solicitor perhaps......the very profession that PIAB was setup to remove from these type of cases due to these type of situations. Hence my previous statement. :rolleyes:

I suppose someone has to stand up for their own!!!

Pat Mustard

In summary so:

Jacknory wrote: »

Your first mistake was going to a solicitor as there is not that much to do if you did it yourself

1. It is a mistake to go to a solicitor in relation to an Injuries Board application, "as there is not that much to do if you did it yourself."

The Mustard wrote: »

if someone applies to the Injuries Board for assessment of damages, how do you suggest that they should gauge whether an assessment is fair or not?

Jacknory wrote: »

By going to a solicitor perhaps

2. If an assessment is made, you should go to a solicitor after all, notwithstanding point 1.

Jacknory wrote: »

Hence my previous statement.

3. You refer to your previous statement, that you should not go to a solicitor after all, "as there is not that much to do if you did it yourself", never mind point 2.

Super advice here.

Jacknory

1. Try the process yourself as that's what its there for.

2. If you have a question over an assessment which cannot be answered by the process, then you should seek legal advice if you feel it is required. Legal expense incurred will not be covered by the board and will come out of the assessment hence the reason to try the process yourself.

3. There are times that you really need to go to a solicitor and there are others that you can DIY.

The Jaw

ResearchWill wrote: »

So he charged a professional fee of 2500, which is 500 more than you agreed, I would if I was you explain he said between 1500 to 2000 you think the 500 is too much.

Well his professional fee is € 2,500 as agreed. He cant keep the VAT obviously so his ultimate fee is as suggested. I would bet that is says " not inclusive of VAT" somewhere on the Sec 68?

Also, if he paid the Doctors reports, engineers reports etc does that mean that you were not out of pocket for these costs at that time? If so he bsically leant you the money to progress your case, that ultimately got you € 14,000. ( Obviously I dont know your circumstances, but you may not have been in a position to pay those costs at that time) You also said that you found a letter from 2 years ago. Therefore he took the case on, incurred outlays himself and backed it over 2 years to win it. I dont think that it is massively unfair of him.

Your first mistake was going to a solicitor as there is not that much to do if you did it yourself

It is easy to rag on the Solicitors. The fact of the matter is that 87% of PIAB cases go through Solicitors now. One of the reasons is that they are experiences enough to know if it is a good settlement or not. Another is because of their experties in finding the correct Plaintiff. So what if you get hit on the road by white van man with the name of a large company on it. You presume that it is that large company who own it and lodge a PIAB claim against them. Given time for the injury to settle down, getting reports together etc, they can draw it out for a couple of years and they say " sorry, wrong plaintiff names". You are then statute barred from going any further.
The Sol's fees are cheap enough then

Jacknory

The Jaw wrote: »

Well his professional fee is € 2,500 as agreed. He cant keep the VAT obviously so his ultimate fee is as suggested. I would bet that is says " not inclusive of VAT" somewhere on the Sec 68?

Also, if he paid the Doctors reports, engineers reports etc does that mean that you were not out of pocket for these costs at that time? If so he bsically leant you the money to progress your case, that ultimately got you € 14,000. ( Obviously I dont know your circumstances, but you may not have been in a position to pay those costs at that time) You also said that you found a letter from 2 years ago. Therefore he took the case on, incurred outlays himself and backed it over 2 years to win it. I dont think that it is massively unfair of him.

Your first mistake was going to a solicitor as there is not that much to do if you did it yourself

It is easy to rag on the Solicitors. The fact of the matter is that 87% of PIAB cases go through Solicitors now. One of the reasons is that they are experiences enough to know if it is a good settlement or not. Another is because of their experties in finding the correct Plaintiff. So what if you get hit on the road by white van man with the name of a large company on it. You presume that it is that large company who own it and lodge a PIAB claim against them. Given time for the injury to settle down, getting reports together etc, they can draw it out for a couple of years and they say " sorry, wrong plaintiff names". You are then statute barred from going any further.
The Sol's fees are cheap enough then

I wasn't trying to have a go at Solicitors........just saying that its something that should be tried and if you feel its too much for you then by all means get advice.

I managed to get through it and was very happy with the outcome. The process should be looked at if its now seen as too complex, as per your quoted 87% feeling the need to seek legal adivce, or removed as its not what the board was intended for when setup.

Pat Mustard

Jacknory wrote: »

There are times that you really need to go to a solicitor and there are others that you can DIY.

When can you DIY safely?

Jacknory

When things are straight forward

Jacknory

Some Divorce and Probate can be handled safely if straight forward.......but if issues arise then you can get advice.

Conveyancing should also be on the list.

Pat Mustard

Jacknory wrote: »

There are times that you really need to go to a solicitor and there are others that you can DIY.

The Mustard wrote: »

When can you DIY safely?

Jacknory wrote: »

When things are straight forward

So, in a straight forward case, let us assume that an assessment has been made in favour of the applicant. We went through this previously, and you advised that a person should take advice on such assessment in the following manner:

Jacknory wrote: »

By going to a solicitor perhaps......

You then suggested that in certain circumstances one should take professional legal advice but in other circumstances, one would not need such advice:

Jacknory wrote: »

If you have a question over an assessment which cannot be answered by the process, then you should seek legal advice if you feel it is required. Legal expense incurred will not be covered by the board and will come out of the assessment hence the reason to try the process yourself.

Even in the most straightforward situation, an assessment of damages may be made. Should a person take legal advice on whether an assessment is fair, or should they persist in the idea that the matter is 'straight forward' and decide for themselves?

Which is it?

Jacknory

Why shouldn't they decide for themselves???

People are more capable and resourceful then you seem to think. Information is easier to obtain today than it ever has been to help make decisions that were otherwise harder to make.

Getting way off what this thread is about.

Contact your solicitor and look to meet with him to discuss his costs....if that doesn't work try the law society.

Pat Mustard

Jacknory wrote: »

Why shouldn't they decide for themselves???

People are more capable and resourceful then you seem to think. Information is easier to obtain today than it ever has been to help make decisions that were otherwise harder to make.

The Mustard wrote: »

if someone applies to the Injuries Board for assessment of damages, how do you suggest that they should gauge whether an assessment is fair or not?

Jacknory wrote: »

By going to a solicitor perhaps......

Looking back over your posts on this thread, there are some nagging inconsistencies:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOmp3HpAGgM

Jacknory

And thats for you to mull over!!!!! Enjoy

OP - hope you get the result you are looking for.

Procrastastudy

Jacknory wrote: »

Some Divorce and Probate can be handled safely if straight forward.......but if issues arise then you can get advice.

Conveyancing should also be on the list.

One of the most complex areas of Law and you're suggesting it should be done by a lay person?

Jacknory

Conveyancing shouldn't be complex.

If there is issue over title then fair enough but if I'm selling my house and buying another one then I don't see the reason that there should be complexities. If the law was progressive then areas such as this could be made simple for the lay person to complete through a standard process. Solicitors expertise could be utilised when required if something non standard arises.

Just my opinion based on managing over 100 Irish legal practices from a software perspective and the realisation that conveyancing wasn't always handled directly by a solicitor even though it was their time charged to the client.

Pat Mustard

Jacknory wrote: »

If the law was progressive then areas such as this could be made simple for the lay person to complete through a standard process.

If.

Procrastastudy

Jacknory wrote: »

Conveyancing shouldn't be complex.

If there is issue over title then fair enough but if I'm selling my house and buying another one then I don't see the reason that there should be complexities. If the law was progressive then areas such as this could be made simple for the lay person to complete through a standard process. Solicitors expertise could be utilised when required if something non standard arises.

Just my opinion based on managing over 100 Irish legal practices from a software perspective and the realisation that conveyancing wasn't always handled directly by a solicitor even though it was their time charged to the client.

You clearly have no idea of the history to Land in this country. Lawyers did complicate things but, generally, only in trying to get around statues imposed by feudal kings. The land searches etc. and checks that need to be done need to be insured - it doesn't matter of the tea-boy did them as long as if it goes tits-up you can recover your damage.

I understand people's tight fistedness when to comes to paying a professional but I assume when you were managing these hundreds of legal practises you weren't doing it for free? Surely if we made computers simpler we'd have no need for your services?

The Jaw

Any many medical operations are not performed 100% by the Consultant you employ but some of his team with him supervising.

Yes the Solicitors might not do the work but his executive with 20 years experience might. The trainee who walks in the door on day 1 will not be given a conveyance because he does not have the experience in it. He will however have the same experience as the "lay person" trying it out.

Also, if there is a Bank involved they will not let a lay person go near the transaction because they want their interest protected.

Why would anyone jeopardise one of the biggest tranactions that any person undertakes in their life to save a couplf of grand?

Jacknory

Of course I wasn't working for free and you are right with your assessment of my land history but thats not to say that it couldn't be changed.....if ( as you pointed out The Mustard) there was a will to do it!!!!!

I found the legal profession to be quite Luddite in their approach to technology and thats with the most basic applications so I'm not sure how they could be made simpler. Maybe more of a technology focus to educate new entrants??

Kosseegan

Jacknory wrote: »

Of course I wasn't working for free and you are right with your assessment of my land history but thats not to say that it couldn't be changed.....if ( as you pointed out The Mustard) there was a will to do it!!!!!

I found the legal profession to be quite Luddite in their approach to technology and thats with the most basic applications so I'm not sure how they could be made simpler. Maybe more of a technology focus to educate new entrants??

Changing the conveyancing system is a matter for politicians, not lawyers. Attempts have been made to change it since the 13th century. Most of the changes have often added complexity rather than remove it.
Reluctance technology has nothing to do with it either. The implementation of technology in conveyancing is a matter for the administrative authorities.
The biggest hindrance to simplifying conveyancing is the fact that not all titles are registered. The cause of this is political inertia. It would take a major effort to achieve universal registration. SO far the politicians have only gone a short way towardds achieving that.
Until then the conveyancing system is becoming more complicated.
There were guys on the radio a few months ago who took a lease of a commercial unit. After a few months they were sued by the Council for arrears of rates.
They entered the lease without a solicitor and didn't know they would be held liable. DIY is all very well but you Do It At Your Peril.

Procrastastudy

Jacknory wrote: »

I found the legal profession to be quite Luddite in their approach to technology and thats with the most basic applications so I'm not sure how they could be made simpler. Maybe more of a technology focus to educate new entrants??

I'm not sure what technology could offer in all honesty. The advent of online legal databases has been heralded by some as the saviour of the Common Law system - I'm not sure I'd go that far but it has certainly revolutionised legal research. All law students would be taught legal research methods. As for modernising the court room - I assume you've never been in the CCJ, Scotty would feel at home. That said I would be delighted to hear your views - Technology and Law is an area I have a massive interest in.

I was under the impression that the e-conveyancing system was now up and running? Not that I have a clue what it does in all honesty. You have to bear in mind that there have been massive changes to Land Law including the removal of over 100 separate acts by the LCLRA 2009. Almost a thousand years of history can't be changed over night - neither should it. The other issue is that Land Law moves very slowly. People can own a live in a property for decades. The life estate is an example - these became trusts under the LCLRA 2009 but it will take decades for them to die out under the old principles as if you have one you might continue with it for years.

As regards the actual law and IT - yes there do seem to be some odd notions. That's for the legislator, and there for politicians not lawyers, though and presumably there hasn't been an issue or it would have been dealt with (yes I know high hopes!).