Upgrade or new build

The Black Oil

Hey all,

Currently considering updating the family machine which my parents have. It's over 8 years old now. Still generally runs fine, save from the odd dose of malware. Anyway, its spec are as follows -

Operating System - MS Windows XP Professional 32-bit SP3
CPU - Intel Pentium 4 Northwood 0.13um Technology
RAM - 2.00 GB Single-Channel DDR @ 201MHz (3-3-3-8)
Motherboard - Springdale-PE (Socket 478)
Graphics - SyncMaster (1280x1024@60Hz)
128MB - SAPPHIRE RADEON 9200SE ATLANTIS (Sapphire/PCPartner)
Hard Drives - 244GB SAMSUNG SAMSUNG SP2514N (PATA)
Optical Drives - RICOH DVD+RW MP5240 & MITSUMI CD-ROM FX320S !B
Audio - C-Media AC97 Audio Device

I can't recall what PSU is has, sorry.

This was built by a friend of mine, I helped a little (mid-2004). Have played around with the internals of other computers over the years, but am rather out of practice when it comes to a full build.

A few questions first. Is anything here worth holding onto in the event of a new build, or would I likely run into driver and compatability issues? E.g., I presume the monitor would be OK since it's simply a VGA cable, if I were to keep the hard drive, do newer motherboards now no longer use IDE connections? The current case...I don't know if it would be adequate, would I need to measure it? Btw, if buying new parts, do you generally get thermal paste/compound with, eh, the CPU I think it is?

Re a new build, it doesn't need to be gaming PC, but decent graphics and accessible USB ports would help. I'd go for at least 4GB RAM anyway, probably more.

Anyway, here are some of the answers.

1. What is your budget? €950. Doesn't have to be that high, but I could go a little more or even less, if possible!

2. What will be the main purpose of the computer? Core uses are documents, pictures, internet, kindle, scanning, printing, etc.

3. Do you need a copy of Windows? I'm undecided on Windows 7 or 8. A quick scout around online told me that 7 seems a bit on the pricey side, tbh.

4. Can you use any parts from an old computer? Possibly, not sure.

5. Do you need a monitor? Probably not, though go larger than the current "17 one, but I suppose it may then no longer work on a new setup, if there are not adequate drivers?

5b.

6. Do you need any of these peripherals? Currently have wireless keyboard and mouse, will have to have check compatability issues. Eh, what else - slot for SD card, but not essential.

7. Are you willing to try overclocking? N/A

8. How can you pay? Credit Card/Cash

9. When are you purchasing? Not hugely urgent, but it would be a fun Winter project.

What else...going by the posts on here, there are places other than amazon et al that are out there. Newegg is one I've heard of, happy to hear about others, though.

Any pointers would be appreciated.

Monotype

Newegg are American. You won't be able to order from them without incurring heavy import duties.

I think that you should do a new build. That old pentium 4 is... well old.

When you say "decent graphics", do you mean like a bit of gaming on the side, runs most games well, top games might need to turn down the detail a bit?

If so, I think you should get AMD's Trinity APUs. The top one is around the €120 mark if you buy it at a good price. 5800K. It's a decent performer. Any office stuff would be no problem at all. You'd probably be many times as powerful in comparison to the P4. A build around it would only be around the €500ish mark, maybe €550. You could have a good sized SSD in there as well.
If your budget is up to €900, €200 would get you a very nice monitor upgrade to go with it too.

I'll put a build together if I have time tomorrow, but I'm too tired now.
If anyone else wants to step in, go ahead.

The Black Oil

Hey,

Thanks for that, fair play.

Yeah, it wouldn't need to be a top end graphics card at all.

One thing I forgot, what's the story with 64-bit? I'm a bit clueless on that in terms of how it benefits the running of the OS, if at all. Is it not necessary for average home users?

ScumLord

The Black Oil wrote: »

A few questions first. Is anything here worth holding onto in the event of a new build, or would I likely run into driver and compatability issues? E.g., I presume the monitor would be OK since it's simply a VGA cable,

VGA is dead and gone, as is IDE.

You need a new build, everything in your PC is out of date, even the data and power cables are outdated. I would have though IDE and VGA were on the way out even in 2004 as I have a ten year old PC that doesn't use them (although I bought in at the higher end of the market back then).

The good news is PCs have become so much easier to put together and you'll get much more bang for your buck these days. €950 will get you a monster of a PC by your old PCs standards.

Serephucus

Right, so this build is at the high end of what you'd need. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like the most graphically intensive thing you'd be doing with this is maybe watching a movie or something? If so, you won't even need a graphics card, as the processor's integrated graphics will do fine.

Item|Price
Intel Core i3-3220T Box, LGA1155|€113.19
ASRock B75M-GL, Sockel 1155, mATX|€53.43
Crucial M4 256GB SSD 6,4cm (2,5")|€176.10
Microsoft Windows 7 Home Premium 64-Bit (SB-Version)|€82.85
8GB G.Skill PC3-10667U CL9|€28.08
FRACTAL DESIGN Gehäuse Define Mini|€85.24
Thermalright True Spirit 120|€26.99
Super Flower 400W Golden Green Pro 80plus|€55.99
Samsung SH-224BB bare schwarz|€18.08
Shipping|€18.99
Total|€658.94

I've gone for low power, and silence with this. It's overkill for a family PC really, but it'll be very quick, last a long time in terms of performance, and not make a lot of noise at all, as well as run pretty damn cool.

The Black Oil

Thanks. Yeah, probably not even a film. Although, if some video editing was being undertaking, that would require a card, right?

Would probably need to update the keyboard and mouse, but will have to check on that. What's the story with wireless adapters, etc - how is that done? Could probably drop the storage capacity of the SSD and still be OK at 128GB and put the change from the 256 towards a new monitor.

That's the link to Windows 7 disc in German (found the English one anyway). :pac:

Am a touch confused by their dispatch set up. Is the 18.99 reflecting the Irish VAT rate or is it done through DHL/CoD?

Serephucus

Video editing is actually CPU intensive, not GPU, so no, that would still be fine. If you're going to be going it even semi-regularly, a quad core CPU would help though.

Wireless is taken care of via an adapter. A USB one is the handiest thing, though there's also internal ones if you want to do it that way. They're basically the same thing, installed the same way (Plug in, install drivers, done).

Could drop to 128GB. Bearing in mind though that it'll be just under 120GB once formatted, and about 95GB once you've got Windows installed.

The Windows version was intentionally in German, as it's cheaper than the English version. All you're paying for there is the key, so you can just download and burn an image from Digital River (You want Home Premium x64), and use the key you get with the German one. You can of course just use the English one if it's easier for you though.

As regards monitors, this is a good value one, perfectly fine for everything you'll be doing, and this is a more high-end model, with better colour reproduction and viewing angles.

As regards cost, the price quoted in the table above is the end price you'll have to pay. No extra VAT or hidden fees on delivery or anything like that.

The Black Oil

Ah, OK. Thanks.
Yep, Windows takes up a bit of space alright. I'll see if higher is needed (or rather, the one you linked to above), but from memory, they don't have any huge files on the current PC and there as an external HD my mother uses for photos.

I can see only about 80 cent in the price difference in the copies of Windows they, but the German one seems to be in stock, so it would probably be wise to go for it if all you require is the key and can grab and ISO as you mentioned. Not worth being fussy over 80 cent.

Re the cost, what confused me was - The prices stated on the product pages include German value-added tax, currently at the rate of 19 per cent, and currently at 7 per cent for books and magazines. They do not include shipping costs or any surcharges for bulky goods. Different rates of value-added tax for countries in which hardwareversand.de remits value-added tax in the destination country are shown in the table below:

I think the bulky thing confused me was the word bulky since I figured something a little more would apply to the monitor and a case, but maybe not since the links to their respective pages says - incl. VAT and excl. shipping costs.

Serephucus

Ah right, well people order from HWVS every day here almost (I never have, yet) and I've never heard of any pricing anomalies.

I thought there was more of a difference than .80, used to be close to a fiver at one point, guess it's shrunk.

The Black Oil

The Intel processor is shown as 'delivery date unknown'. Does that mean a delay with stock, or it may not be available? If I need to find an alternative, will any i3 do?

Need to throw a keyboard and mouse in there, too.

The Black Oil

Went ahead and ordered on the 11th. They received payment yesterday, so hopefully they'll dispatch the items soon.

Will probably use this video to help with the build.

Serephucus

DO NOT follow his advice for adding thermal paste.

He's using way too much in the video, and using a screwdriver isn't a good idea. Your best bet is to simply put a small dot in the middle (about as much as a spherical blob of toothpaste) and let the heatsink spread it out.

The Black Oil

Alrighty, thanks.
It is one of those aspects that seems to divide people.

Monotype

Nah, the thermal paste makers themselves tell you to only use the size of ~1.5 grains of rice and tests show that small amounts work fine. Excessive amounts can increase temperatures. The paste's job is just to give good contact between both surfaces, not serve as a sandwich filling. I think it's just ignorance that the people put excessive amounts on - thinking that's what you're supposed to do or that more is always better.

The Black Oil

Good to know, thanks.

The parts are with UPS now - they're saying Monday, but hopefully it'll be Friday.

The Black Oil

No sign of UPS yet. Do they really deliver up to 7pm in Ireland, or is that just a US thing? The tracking hasn't updated since 5:30am this morning.

Edit, they just delivered, typical. :pac:

The Black Oil

Eh, OK.

Try to hook up the USB 3.0 and there doesn't appear to be a place for it on the motherboard. There are 2.0 and 3.0 ports, I have the 2.0 hooked up and whilst 3.0 is written on the motherboard and the manual says it supports 3.0, there is a cable in the case for it...I can't see where to plug it in. It's not in the motherboard layout in the manual.

WTF?!

ETA, no 3.0 header on the motherboard, so only the rear 3.0 ports will be operational.

Monotype

Yeah, that's a problem with many motherboards below that €100 mark. You don't get USB 3 headers unless you buy the Z77 motherboards at around that price.

This should solve the problem if you want those ports.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Uspeed-2-ports-Express-Connector-Included/dp/B007SJGGAE/

The Black Oil

Thanks.

Well, machine built successfully. Windows 7 installed.

Installing the heatsink was a bit of a pain as the instructions weren't great. Thankfully everything powered up on the first attempt - I was dreading it not working due to incorrect wiring and not being able to figure it out. Slightly wary that the thermal paste may not hold, but that's because I'm somewhat of a n00b.

There was also a problem in that the test keyboard I was using meant the PC wouldn't go past the motherboard logo/splash. Tried another keyboard and that worked fine. I'm not 100% sure I've set up the boot sequence or BIOS correctly, and again, the instructions are a bit iffy.

I haven't checked the sound or connected it to wireless yet. I didn't get a disk with the DVD drive, so I'm not sure what burning software to use.

For those of you who are more used to this, do you hang on to the boxes of parts in the event of RMA, etc?

Serephucus

I usually do. Not necessarily for RMA purposes (depends on the company; they're not always necessary) but more for reselling components later on (Most stuff I own lasts two years, max. GPUs and the like usually only a year)

tuxy

Serephucus wrote: »

Right, so this build is at the high end of what you'd need. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like the most graphically intensive thing you'd be doing with this is maybe watching a movie or something? If so, you won't even need a graphics card, as the processor's integrated graphics will do fine.

Item|Price
Intel Core i3-3220T Box, LGA1155|€113.19
ASRock B75M-GL, Sockel 1155, mATX|€53.43
Crucial M4 256GB SSD 6,4cm (2,5")|€176.10
Microsoft Windows 7 Home Premium 64-Bit (SB-Version)|€82.85
8GB G.Skill PC3-10667U CL9|€28.08
FRACTAL DESIGN Gehäuse Define Mini|€85.24
Thermalright True Spirit 120|€26.99
Super Flower 400W Golden Green Pro 80plus|€55.99
Samsung SH-224BB bare schwarz|€18.08
Shipping|€18.99
Total|€658.94

I've gone for low power, and silence with this. It's overkill for a family PC really, but it'll be very quick, last a long time in terms of performance, and not make a lot of noise at all, as well as run pretty damn cool.

I see you picked a single memory dimm for this build.
Why pick that over 2 4gb dimms for the same price and take advantage of dual channel?

Serephucus

Because dual channel RAM doesn't actually help anything. Memory bandwidth is ridiculously far ahead of everything else in a system, and is never going to be a bottleneck, so I opted to leave the possibility of 16GB of memory as an upgrade option.

tuxy

Serephucus wrote: »

Because dual channel RAM doesn't actually help anything. Memory bandwidth is ridiculously far ahead of everything else in a system, and is never going to be a bottleneck, so I opted to leave the possibility of 16GB of memory as an upgrade option.

Fair enough

Monotype

Got up to date evidence to back that up? There's significant real world gains to be had in moving up RAM speeds with an overclocked system (e.g., 2500K overclocked to above 4Ghz). We're talking about a lighter system here, so you wouldn't see those gains - however, I question writing off dual channel like that and I would be very reluctant to pick a single when the price is nearly the same unless you plan for upgrades or there's a heatsink in the way, etc.

Serephucus

Should have been a bit more clear. For his build it won't do anything. For decent-ish and above gaming rigs it's somewhat beneficial.

http://www.legitreviews.com/article/1779/3/

The Black Oil

I've only installed Office 2007 so far - installation was very quick. Boot time is zippy, too.

Regarding motherboard software (not drivers), are some these generally junk? Not the main ones, but things like USB Express/Fast USB free software or something? Part of the bundle was also Norton, but I didn't install it! There's some annoying games thing pinned to the taskbar that I probably installed by accident as well, though it's not listed in Add/Remove Progs.

Monotype

Serephucus wrote: »

Should have been a bit more clear. For his build it won't do anything. For decent-ish and above gaming rigs it's somewhat beneficial.

http://www.legitreviews.com/article/1779/3/

Hmm... interesting article, but I'm not entirely convinced. Needs more results to be conclusive. If I have time over Christmas and I have my HTPC motherboard back from RMA, I'll run a few tests to see if I can find a difference.

@The Black Oil - sounds like extra junk. You probably don't need a lot of it. You'll be needing the USB 3 drivers though and sometimes they come under software.

Serephucus

Agreed, though it's the only article I could find that actually tested it. I'd be interested to see those results as well.

The Black Oil

Tried an old Belkin wireless adapter (F57000), but I understand there are no Win 7 drivers available. T'internet suggests that there might be a workaround of sorts. I can see from the rear of the PC that there's a yellow light on it, iirc it should be green. It's not showing in Device Manager, though...hmmm. I'll probably just go to a bricks and mortar place to get a new card. What should I look out for here - spec, we're at N, right, and is mbps important? Such as here or here?

Have installed Microsoft Security Essentials, Malwarebytes, browsers, etc and getting system updates now. That is, after connecting to the router with a LAN cable.

Edit, OK now the Belkin card is working and I can get a wireless signal...strange. Can't see anything about its status in Device Manager.