A4 riders, self upgrade to A3 for 2013 or earn it?

colm_gti

A question for all the other A4 riders amongst us....With the option to self upgrade to A3 at the beginning of the 2013 season, what will you be doing?

buffalo

Make your mark as best you can in A4 first. Get a few points here and there, and maybe an outright win, then go up on that.

killalanerr

for me its a no brainer.have the option to ride longer races and have the choice of stage races or join the mass sprint lucky bag that is a4

daragh_

I think everyone should upgrade to A3 except me.

C3PO

Where's the "I'm grand where I am thanks!" option?

joker77

I'm conflicted on this, keeping changing my mind.

When will the actual decision need to be made?

Beasty

From what I recall was said at the AGM, there will be a window of a few weeks to "opt-up", as they will only then be able to distribute licences and back numbers.

However given this was only agreed on Saturday, I'm sure they are still working through some of the practicalities at CI. For example, as I understand it, the current application process on the website will need to be changed (as there is no option currently in the system to do this). They want all applications to be made online (to save significant admin costs), so I'm guessing they will need to tweek the system

They originally indicated that new memberships and renewals will be accepted from 12 November, but whether that remains feasible or not I'm not sure

morana

1st December will be cut off date

CaoimH_in

Howdy,

First year racing and have been told I have to get an a4 race license. The lads in my club seem confident in me to get points as an a4 and appeal to be upgraded (or something), but I'm still kinda unsure. Can I start racing as an a3? What can/should I do?

Beasty

CaoimH_in wrote: »

What can/should I do?

Try out some club races before open races if you can. Then you should really start in A4. There will be a review of how the grading works next year anyway, and I'm sure you will have further options for 2014 should you prove yourself capable in your first year (assuming you don't get promoted based on points gained)

Peterx

morana wrote: »

1st December will be cut off date

Given there is already a process/system in place for the upgrading of riders mid-season why implement a cut-off date?

colm_gti

I'm pretty torn between the two at the minute myself, only started racing in July, but raced twice a week every week between then and the Charleville 2 day. Didn't pick up any points, but having done the mass start intervarsity RR, I feel I've learned what was wrong about how I raced in 2012, and what I need to do to get out of A4 next year....but putting that into practice may not be as easy, with the inevitable bunch sprint for the finish line, misplacing yourself could lead to a long season of picking up 1 point per race...I thought with a good winter season behind me I'd have been able to do some damage at A4 and potentially upgrade early on to start doing the races I'd like to do, but with the optional self upgrade, and a large amount of clubmates taking this route, it really has thrown a spanner in the works...the prospects of entering an A3 team into a few stage races throughout the season is very enticing...

michael196

morana wrote: »

1st December will be cut off date

do you mean the cut off date to upgrade to A3 from A4 ?

petethedrummer

The points from this year carry don't they?

I have 7, so I'm going to stay in A4 for the remaining 3.

buffalo

petethedrummer wrote: »

The points from this year carry don't they?

I have 7, so I'm going to stay in A4 for the remaining 3.

Points in A4 were always carried across afaik. A3 points used to be halved from one season to the next, but they're all being carried across now, from what I understand from the AGM.

Beasty

Peterx wrote: »

Given there is already a process/system in place for the upgrading of riders mid-season why implement a cut-off date?

The only way to upgraded mid-season is by getting enough points

michael196 wrote: »

do you mean the cut off date to upgrade to A3 from A4 ?

IIRC you can upgrade one category, which means you can go to A2 from A3 if you wish

petethedrummer wrote: »

The points from this year carry don't they?

Yes

Sr. Assumpta

petethedrummer wrote: »

The points from this year carry don't they?

Yup, A4 points carry year to year.

CI Technical Doument, page 24.

Chapter T3. Section 2 (d):

(d) An A4 rider on amassing 10 points, cumulative across years will be upgraded to A3.

And, as discussed at CI AGM, from now on points acquired in A3 & A2 will also carry fully into the following year (not halved, as previously).

DirkVoodoo

I think you're kidding yourself sticking in A4 IF:

1) You think you can be competitive in A3 and don't want to waste more time chasing placings that not appear as quickly as you would like.

2) You don't think you can learn any more from riding around in A4 and would like to be with the slightly more experienced A3 riders to bring you along.

Of course, if you think you are strong enough (there always seems to be a few each year) to simply ride away from any A4 bunch and guarantee promotion before any of the big races next year, then by all means hang around. I can't see why some misplaced sense of having to "earn" the right should stop you.

Like Kevin Doyle when Reading first got to the premiership, sometimes you need to be pushed against tougher opposition to really progress. To me, that's far more important than hoping for an A4 win next year.

Lusk Doyle

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

I think you're kidding yourself sticking in A4 IF:

1) You think you can be competitive in A3 and don't want to waste more time chasing placings that not appear as quickly as you would like.

2) You don't think you can learn any more from riding around in A4 and would like to be with the slightly more experienced A3 riders to bring you along.

Of course, if you think you are strong enough (there always seems to be a few each year) to simply ride away from any A4 bunch and guarantee promotion before any of the big races next year, then by all means hang around. I can't see why some misplaced sense of having to "earn" the right should stop you.

Like Kevin Doyle when Reading first got to the premiership, sometimes you need to be pushed against tougher opposition to really progress. To me, that's far more important than hoping for an A4 win next year.

You've obviously never gotten one so! :pac:

colm_gti

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

....sometimes you need to be pushed against tougher opposition to really progress....

THIS! This is what I have always found in any sport I've played, and this is what has me thinking the most about upgrading to A3 for 2013. Back when I played rugby, if we played a sh1t team, we'd play at their level, but playing a great team would force us to play well. When I first started cycling with a bigger group, I progressed far far quicker, when I first started racing, I experienced another jump in the level I could stick with, so surely the same could be said for riding with A3's? Surely the best way to improve your own riding is to ride with people better/stronger than you are?

petethedrummer

colm_gti wrote: »

Surely the best way to improve your own riding is to ride with people better/stronger than you are?

To what end? If a person is not getting points in the lowest category what is the point in going up to the next? Just to say they're not an A4 anymore?

killalanerr

colm_gti wrote: »

I'm pretty torn between the two at the minute myself,

just take the upgrade,
like your rugby days always go forward

Alot of the current A3s took a free upgrade when the new grading system was introduced so nothing new here really

killalanerr

petethedrummer wrote: »

To what end? If a person is not getting points in the lowest category what is the point in going up to the next? Just to say they're not an A4 anymore?

With the risk of repeating myself,the end would be to be allowed to ride longer races (which would suit some) and have a choice of entering more stage races,saying your not A4 anymore has nothing to do with it

Aodho

petethedrummer wrote: »

To what end? If a person is not getting points in the lowest category what is the point in going up to the next? Just to say they're not an A4 anymore?

Agreed.

Having previously raced A4 & been upgraded to A3 last year I don't buy this argument that there's A4 riders who would be competitive at A3 but unable to upgrade through current points system. Those people will be pack fill. If one can't score points in A4 they wont score in A3, it is harder & more tactics are definitely involved.
This whinging that A4 is always a bunch sprint & that otherwise destined A3 riders can't progress is nonsense. At least 40% of A4 races are not sprint finishes & besides the people who don't sprint at the end aren’t the riders attempting breakaway tactics during the race (or not that I generally observed)... pack fill is pack fill. If one can't "tactic" their way out of A4, assuming they've no sprint (or appetite for sprint! which is fair enough) what do they think they're going to do in A3? They're either not strong or fit enough or are not tactically brave, experienced or inclined enough.
Granted most current A4 riders are able to not get dropped by the A3 pack but that's not being competitive that's being pack fill... racing involves a lot more than just being able to keep up.

OP; if you are still novice (less than at least 1 full season say) you should stay in A4 (which is meant to be the novice category) where you have the opportunity to learn more about how to race. Upgrading so you can stage race or race at longer distances is putting the cart before the horse. It could also be viewed as reckless from the perspective of other rider’s safety (and/ or at least reckless of CI to allow it).
Besides if you have ability to score in A4 you will have improved probability next year to do so as many will upgrade by amnesty leaving those that are completely new, don’t want to upgrade anyway & those who want to earn upgrade properly... could be a really good start to season in A4 actually if you think about it! If you upgrade to A3 by amnesty you will have less scoring opportunities straight away.

buffalo

killalanerr wrote: »

With the risk of repeating myself,the end would be to be allowed to ride longer races (which would suit some) and have a choice of entering more stage races,saying your not A4 anymore has nothing to do with it

I'm with Pete. Does that mean if there was an upgrade to A2, you'd take it? You'll know you're ready for A3 when you start scoring points in A4. There's not many hilly races, but there's enough, and if you target the right 'flat' races, you'll get an upgrade.

That doesn't take into account bad form, illnesses, a bad night's sleep before an event, no Mr Grieves' wheel to cling onto, etc., but I'd much rather prove myself in A4, and get a bit of glory before moving up. While I wanted to get up to A3 for a particular stage race, I do regret not managing to win a race in A4, which is nearly always going to be easier than winning a race in A3.

edit: Aodha put it well - if you're packfill in A4, chances are you'll be packfill in A3. If you prefer the latter, fair enough.

Chips Lovell

With longer races and the opportunity to do stage races, I think there's more chance of developing in A3 if you think you're ready for it.

A4 has the highest numbers, which means that it is statistically harder to score points there than any other cat. Combine this with the fact that the races tend to be much shorter and it makes it hard enough to get out of.

The people I've seen progress easily have been the strong sprinters and the guys who're so talented they find themselves in A1/A2 before long.

I've seen a lot if guys stuck in A4 who probably would have more chance of getting results in A3 since they'd do better in longer tougher races.

Aodho

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

A4 has the highest numbers, which means that it is statistically harder to score points there than any other cat. Combine this with the fact that the races tend to be much shorter and it makes it hard enough to get out of.

That's assuming that everybody has an equal chance in a race, which of course they don't. The pack fill have a (much) lower chance of scoring than average (hence they havn't progressed).

To my mind those stuck in A4 for a long time (but actually want to race A3) are those who;
- cant/ wont sprint
- cant/ wont breakaway alone
- are not tactically aware enough to form group breakaways
- are not fit/ strong enough in general

Is making a race longer or having finishes with less sprinting really going to increase the chances of scoring for these riders? Especially when you factor in the higher quality of rider in general they will be competing against.

buffalo

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

A4 has the highest numbers, which means that it is statistically harder to score points there than any other cat. Combine this with the fact that the races tend to be much shorter and it makes it hard enough to get out of.

I've seen a lot if guys stuck in A4 who probably would have more chance of getting results in A3 since they'd do better in longer tougher races.

Good point about longer races weeding out the hangers-on, although I'd say that a lot of the A3 bunches I've been in have been similarly sized to the A4 ones.

Aodho

buffalo wrote: »

Good point about longer races weeding out the hangers-on, although I'd say that a lot of the A3 bunches I've been in have been similarly sized to the A4 ones.

I'd agree with this too, and the point is definitely valid.

But the solution here would be to lengthen the A4 races so that the "selection" happens. Upgrading to A3 & racing against riders who are accustomed to longer distances obviously doesn't address that issue (as the selection wont happen except against the A4 rider who has upgraded himself but is not fit enough to last the A3 distance*pace).

colm_gti

Lot of food for thought lads, really appreciate your input so far.

Had been pretty much set on staying at A4, just chatting to a few lads last night had changed my mind, though I think I would definitely benefit from another season at that level alright...

DirkVoodoo

So your argument is better to be packfill in A4 than packfill in A3?

If I'm going to be packfill, I want to be packfill with a slightly lower risk of crashing.

Aodho

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

So your argument is better to be packfill in A4 than packfill in A3?

If I'm going to be packfill, I want to be packfill with a slightly lower risk of crashing.

That's not my argument no.

But that lower risk you refer to might actually be negated with the arrival of upgraded A4s into A3... A4 may actually therefore be a safer place than A3 next year as it'll have less numbers than now.

Beasty

Aodho wrote: »

That's not my argument no.

But that lower risk you refer to might actually be negated with the arrival of upgraded A4s into A3... A4 may actually therefore be a safer place than A3 next year as it'll have less numbers than now.

I think there were more complaints about dangerous racing in A3 than A4 in each of the last 2 years, based on reports back here. Moving more up to A3 is not going to help that, although it may make life a bit better for those of us remaining in A4. I think the real answer, particularly in Leinster, is to put on more races. That spreads the load and given more opportunities to pick up the required points to progress.

Morana put a slide up at the AGM stating the average field size in both A3 and A4 this year was just over 50, but I suspect it would have been quite a lot higher amongst races in Leinster where demand for racing is higher than the other provinces (well Ulster may also have had high demand, but there are limits imposed on numbers racing)

killalanerr

Their are 160 A4 riders approx that have scored points its a bottle neck thats why this measure has been introduced
i do agree that the new measures will help a lot of theses to gain the points quicker but their are just not enough races for every one to achieve the upgrade,well done on earning your upgrade but the ability only system needed a bit of tweaking so other can move on with their racing
I am one of the growing number older gentleman in the bunch so hanging on for another year in A4 is not an option for me i have scored points in A4 and if all goes to plan i fully expect to score some in A3 also if that makes me back fill so be it,riding A3 better suits my goals for the coming season

Raymzor

it is worth noting that the amnesty to upgrade one category is also available to the other grades. i suspect very few in the grades above a4 will avail of the amnesty as these riders will most likely feed the need to earn the upgrade. This raises a question. does a rider have to be in a particular grade to ride the RAS. PS: this is not a query based on personal circumstances! i dont even have a racing licence. maybe a4 next year........

wav1

A very important consideration for those riders moving from A4 TO A3 racing is this
You have to remember that A3 racing is also the home of junior racing.
Theres a real good crew of them around at the moment and a lot of them are good[very good] and the hardship in some of the A3 races is down to their prescence.

Beasty

wav1 wrote: »

and the hardship in some of the A3 races is down to their prescence.

... and they steal ur points (even though they are not supposed to!)

morana

Beasty wrote: »

... and they steal ur points (even though they are not supposed to!)

not anymore they wont..whippersnappers!

I think going up a grade from 4 to 3 or to 2 is well worth it. My ambition was to always try ride in Cat 1 for as long as I could you have to train but its doable. The racing is better if you are a racer if you want to sit at the back and rely on your kick it will work in A3 but not in A2/1...

Just enjoy the racing you dont need to get a contract. Draw up plans with your mates on what tactics you will try, follow some of the good guys around and try learn from them andjust ride really hard because one day you wont be able to! I know believe me!

wav1

Beasty wrote: »

... and they steal ur points (even though they are not supposed to!)

As morana has pointed out they wont anymore as yes the juniors will get the points if they are in the placings,but a full allocation of A3 points will also be awarded as the whippersnappers have their own tab on the ranking system.
I do agree with morana to the extent that any rider with real goals should get up through the rankings asap as it doesn't last forever.

Aodho

wav1 wrote: »

As morana has pointed out they wont anymore as yes the juniors will get the points if they are in the placings,but a full allocation of A3 points will also be awarded as the whippersnappers have their own tab on the ranking system.
I do agree with morana to the extent that any rider with real goals should get up through the rankings asap as it doesn't last forever.

Does this mean that next year in a race of under 100k if I place 10th but there is 2 juniors ahead of me I will be awarded 1 point for 8th place A3 senior?

morana

Aodho wrote: »

Does this mean that next year in a race of under 100k if I place 10th but there is 2 juniors ahead of me I will be awarded 1 point for 8th place A3 senior?

yes

wav1

Aodho wrote: »

Does this mean that next year in a race of under 100k if I place 10th but there is 2 juniors ahead of me I will be awarded 1 point for 8th place A3 senior?

Thats the general idea.That way nobody loses out on their points.Just needs comms and clubs to submit enough info after a race.

wav1

killalanerr wrote: »

Their are 160 A4 riders approx that have scored points its a bottle neck thats why this measure has been introduced
i do agree that the new measures will help a lot of theses to gain the points quicker but their are just not enough races for every one to achieve the upgrade,well done on earning your upgrade but the ability only system needed a bit of tweaking so other can move on with their racing
I am one of the growing number older gentleman in the bunch so hanging on for another year in A4 is not an option for me i have scored points in A4 and if all goes to plan i fully expect to score some in A3 also if that makes me back fill so be it,riding A3 better suits my goals for the coming season

yhis plan of action will require a bike to be brought along on the ras next year with nightly spins,followed by sipping coffee in the evening time,and a strong restraint in relation to the night stages.Your some man.

killalanerr

wav1 wrote: »

yhis plan of action will require a bike to be brought along on the ras next year with nightly spins,followed by sipping coffee in the evening time,and a strong restraint in relation to the night stages.Your some man.

Wav if your buyin ill be their Alas my participation in the ras night stages has been greatly demonised in recent years you are more likely find me in the gym with the retired chemist (now he is some man) or climbing the odd mountain with Robfowl.i would like to point out that my association with either for theses gents has no bearing on my improvements in recent years

Morrisseeee

So has this news (self upgrading) been broadcast to the populous ie. if I didn't read about it here I wouldn't have known about it ! and is Dec 1st the definite cut-off point ?

morana

Morrisseeee wrote: »

So has this news (self upgrading) been broadcast to the populous ie. if I didn't read about it here I wouldn't have known about it ! and is Dec 1st the definite cut-off point ?

The cut off WONT be Dec 1st according to my info. it will run a bit longer.

Pablo Rubio

Applied for my Licence last week , I received my licence approval and number and sent then an Email to be upgraded. I havent had any reply to Email but I know they're busy in CI processing everyones licence. Anyone here received they're upgrade in last while.

CramCycle

I got a phone call last week as I made a mistake, all sorted, am now A3.

I had sent off the e-mail in late December. So about one month wait time but I had made a mistake so it could be shorter.

DaveR1

Quick Question:

Munster TT champs are at the weekend.
Are there ranking points for this event, A4?

buffalo

DaveR1 wrote: »

Quick Question:

Munster TT champs are at the weekend.
Are there ranking points for this event, A4?

It's 6-5-4-3-2-1 for the National TT, and 3-2-1 for TTs within stage races, but nothing in the regulations about provincial TTs.

DaveR1

I had seen that, so do you think can I take it as no points are on offer?
Because only a certain portion of CI members can do it, points would be unfair?