Where is Aertel?

Red Pepper

I have my Digital channels after the switchover but where is Aertel?

Kristopherus

There's already 2 threads on this subject.:( Do a search and you'll get your answer.

watty

Only text on Tg4 & TV3. You need MHEG5 (a certified TV or box in most cases).

Brian P

Have a look at posts 55 and 57:)

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056772408&page=4

muincav

Brian P wrote: »

Have a look at posts 55 and 57:)

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056772408&page=4

Now that is a far nicer reply that #2.....its nice to be nice...;)

Kristopherus

muincav wrote: »

Now that is a far nicer reply that #2.....its nice to be nice...;)

Of course you're right:) But then when posters won't use the search facility.............:(

watty

Most people can't use Search. On anything.

Mitch epitag

RTE should never have closed old aertel on saorview. Lots of people seem to be effected by this.

MarkK

Mitch epitag wrote: »

RTE should never have closed old aertel on saorview. Lots of people seem to be effected by this.

Retailers shouldn't have sold unapproved equipment without making it clear that things like this would happen.
Aertel should work on any Saorview approved TV or box.

winston_1

MarkK wrote: »

Aertel should work on any Saorview approved TV or box.

It would if they were still broadcasting it on terrestrial. However the replacement MHEG 5 text should work.

Does anyone know the reason RTE stopped Aertel on terrestrial? It is not as if then can close down the department to save money (as the BBC did with Ceefax), as they still produce it for satellite.

MarkK

winston_1 wrote: »

It would if they were still broadcasting it on terrestrial. However the replacement MHEG 5 text should work.

The replacement MHEG 5 text service is still branded as "Aertel".

STB

winston_1 wrote: »

Does anyone know the reason RTE stopped Aertel on terrestrial? It is not as if then can close down the department to save money (as the BBC did with Ceefax), as they still produce it for satellite.

Stubbornness. They want to push ahead with MHEG.

There is no space issues to carrying it for FTA customers in parallel. Its also in the minimum spec.

lawhec

It makes no real sense to run what is essentially a duplication of services in parallel. RTÉ have taken the decision that the MHEG version of Aertel is the way to go forward on Saorview. IIRC the WST version of Aertel on Saorview took up a bitrate of 300kbps; whilst only a fraction of capacity space, it isn't an insignificant amount. Such spare space could be put to use for example by raising the video ABR of RTÉ One from 2.0Mbps to 2.3Mbps giving an opportunity for RTÉNL engineers to transmit the station in full D1 (720/704x575) rather than the current 544x576. Another method would be to raise the bit rate used by RTÉ radio stations on the multiplex - particularly the "digital" stations like Pulse and 2XM - combined with a move to HE-ACC to increase the sound quality all round.

Around a decade ago Sky abandoned their WST teletext service on satellite when they launched their OpenTV middleware based text service. However cable customers obviously couldn't view this new text service so Sky kept a WST service running for them on Sky News and Sky One at least. It was transmitted via Astra 2 on the same transponder as the relevant Sky service, with a different channel identifier label than for satellite subscribers which carried the same video & audio stream, but the label had PIDs for the WST text service. You could tune into this on a Sky receiver via Other Channels.

watty

300kbs?
One normal Telextext service needs about 32kbps? But maybe I'm wrong.

The Cush

lawhec wrote: »

IIRC the WST version of Aertel on Saorview took up a bitrate of 300kbps; whilst only a fraction of capacity space, it isn't an insignificant amount.

watty wrote: »

300kbs?
One normal Telextext service needs about 32kbps? But maybe I'm wrong.

300kbps according to RTÉ - http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=69031541

STB

lawhec wrote: »

It makes no real sense to run what is essentially a duplication of services in parallel. RTÉ have taken the decision that the MHEG version of Aertel is the way to go forward on Saorview. IIRC the WST version of Aertel on Saorview took up a bitrate of 300kbps; whilst only a fraction of capacity space, it isn't an insignificant amount. Such spare space could be put to use for example by raising the video ABR of RTÉ One from 2.0Mbps to 2.3Mbps giving an opportunity for RTÉNL engineers to transmit the station in full D1 (720/704x575) rather than the current 544x576. Another method would be to raise the bit rate used by RTÉ radio stations on the multiplex - particularly the "digital" stations like Pulse and 2XM - combined with a move to HE-ACC to increase the sound quality all round.

Around a decade ago Sky abandoned their WST teletext service on satellite when they launched their OpenTV middleware based text service. However cable customers obviously couldn't view this new text service so Sky kept a WST service running for them on Sky News and Sky One at least. It was transmitted via Astra 2 on the same transponder as the relevant Sky service, with a different channel identifier label than for satellite subscribers which carried the same video & audio stream, but the label had PIDs for the WST text service. You could tune into this on a Sky receiver via Other Channels.

300k is insignificant when it comes to a mux overhead. Infact that average data which can be reduced even further to a single EBU teletext service on say RTE1. Shortly we shall have 2 muxes. Space is aplenty.

The service continues to be carried on the Sky platform. RTE are supplying and maintaining it.
EBU usage is also included in the Saorview spec as an option.

Using the highly efficient HE-AAC over lossy MPEG2 would reduce the audio stream overhead on the mux.

watty

300 Kps shared to three of the radio channels would almost double the quality, which is terrible at present.

But in reality it should be more like 32kbps, which is absolutely insignificant, unless the 300kbps is a total for all 7 channels assuming all use teletext.

The HE-AAC only would be a saving at the current too low bit rates. If the MP2 was 256K the saving for HE-AAC would not be so much.

Antenna

lawhec wrote: »

It makes no real sense to run what is essentially a duplication of services in parallel

Though no-one seems to be making an issue of the pure wastefulness of there currently being two radio channels on Saorview - RTE Radio 1 Extra (201) and RTE Choice (207), which are simulcasting the same programmes all the time, the latter having about a 3 or 4 second delay to the former!

Saorview still claim there are 10 RTE radio stations on it, even though one is a duplicate of another, it ought to be 9 radio stations.

pitythefool

MarkK wrote: »

Retailers shouldn't have sold unapproved equipment without making it clear that things like this would happen.
Aertel should work on any Saorview approved TV or box.

if you want text buy an approved box, simple as, i know people selling the boxes and they will always try to sell the more expensive saorview approved boxes as it avoids these complications ie customers wondering why they dont have a full service ( text included ) when they cheapened out and bought an unapproved box

marclt

STB wrote: »

The service continues to be carried on the Sky platform. RTE are supplying and maintaining it.
.

Yes, which if you're using a Sky+HD box means you won't get old fashioned teletext it unless you view via scart or RF channel.

So if anything it would make more sense for RTE to broker a deal with getting 'digital' aertel carried on Sky...

But that's another discussion thread...

watty

Sky's Interactive is a completely incompatible proprietary closed system. Sky would have to pay all the composing costs and "tool" costs and also carriage costs.

SPDUB

pitythefool wrote: »

when they cheapened out and bought an unapproved box

The local Dunnes is only selling unapproved boxes so I don't think anyone buying a box there unless they realise the difference can be considered as cheapening out

lawhec

Antenna wrote: »

Though no-one seems to be making an issue of the pure wastefulness of there currently being two radio channels on Saorview - RTE Radio 1 Extra (201) and RTE Choice (207), which are simulcasting the same programmes all the time, the latter having about a 3 or 4 second delay to the former!

Saorview still claim there are 10 RTE radio stations on it, even though one is a duplicate of another, it ought to be 9 radio stations.

I'm not a regular listener if either station so I can't say that I've noticed. However that does seem like a waste. I've wondered if it would be possible for RTÉ to do PID switching so that if RTÉ Radio 1 and Radio 1 extra were carrying the same content, the LCNs would point to the same APID and with the combined bit rate of the current two services used to improve the sound quality of that broadcast e.g. 224kbps MP2, but when R1 extra was carrying an opt-out, APID's could be switched on the R1eX LCN to point to an additional sub-stream e.g. Radio 1 on 160kbps MP2, Radio 1 extra 64kbps MP2? The BBC do something very similar on their national DAB multiplex in the UK, the Radio 4 LW and 5 Live Sports Extra services aren't broadcast on the platform unless they are actually on air, in the former case with an opt-out from the FM service and the latter when it's employed in its role as a spill-over addition from 5 Live. Interestingly the BBC keep separate Radio 4 FM and LW streams available on satellite all the time even though for most of the day they're pretty much the same unless they're carrying cricket commentary. I guessed before that Sky and/or Freesat receivers may have problems with this approach in their EPG software and don't employ this, or that the general availability of capacity on satellite makes this possible implementation moot.

STB wrote: »

300k is insignificant when it comes to a mux overhead. Infact that average data which can be reduced even further to a single EBU teletext service on say RTE1. Shortly we shall have 2 muxes. Space is aplenty.

300kbps is far from insignificant. That bitrate alone would be enough to have video at VCD (352x288) resolution which could be employed for use say as a 1/4 screen video stream alongside an MHEG application as the BBC have done in the past on Freeview with BBC Parliament (now a full-screen service) and the limited (compared to Sky) BBC news interactive service which had two screens, though rather than have VCD resolution screens they employed a full size screen resolution that had three streams "in-frame" which the MHEG application on each channel fitted their content around, not that dissimilar to Sky News Active on satellite where the four video streams are actually one video stream split into four quarters. So as an alternative, RTÉ could send a full-sized video stream at say 544X576 pixels at a video ABR of 300kbps, but only using a quarter of the visible display used for video with the remaining 3/4 left black, leaving the video stream an effective 272x352.

lawhec

watty wrote: »

Sky's Interactive is a completely incompatible proprietary closed system. Sky would have to pay all the composing costs and "tool" costs and also carriage costs.

If it were anything like the OpenTV --> WST conversion process that Sky had to providing cable customers with a teletext service in the past, it would probably be possible to use a "translator" that would take the relevant content of one platform and insert it into the variable content area of a template of another. The one system I mentioned above saw Sky take the content that was published on their OpenTV text service on satellite e.g. a news story, and replicate it into a content area of a WST text page which was set by an obvious template. Particularly so as the sub-page of each OpenTV text page would hot less characters compared to the equivalent WST page, yet the WST page would have the exact same amount of sub-pages even though the physical space to hold characters was bigger. I suspect that the BBC employ something similar for their Red Button services, but in a more subtle fashion.

pitythefool

SPDUB wrote: »

The local Dunnes is only selling unapproved boxes so I don't think anyone buying a box there unless they realise the difference can be considered as cheapening out

True, but lord knows anyone would buy a saorview box in Dunnes

watty

People have not been offered a choice in many shops.
Where there is a choice the cheaper boxes are not anywhere labelled as lacking features as well as certification. It's immoral marketing.

If people see a cheaper model with no obvious shortcomings they usually buy it. But in most cases there are NO certified boxes.

STB

lawhec wrote: »

300kbps is far from insignificant. That bitrate alone would be enough to have video at VCD (352x288) resolution which could be employed for use say as a 1/4 screen video stream alongside an MHEG application as the BBC have done in the past on Freeview with BBC Parliament (now a full-screen service) and the limited (compared to Sky) BBC news interactive service which had two screens, though rather than have VCD resolution screens they employed a full size screen resolution that had three streams "in-frame" which the MHEG application on each channel fitted their content around, not that dissimilar to Sky News Active on satellite where the four video streams are actually one video stream split into four quarters. So as an alternative, RTÉ could send a full-sized video stream at say 544X576 pixels at a video ABR of 300kbps, but only using a quarter of the visible display used for video with the remaining 3/4 left black, leaving the video stream an effective 272x352.

The in picture resizing in MHEG functionality is already done within the data carousel pulling it from the existing and broadcast transport stream. If RTE had any more content they would make a station out of it. They are already timesharing a channel after all with repeat news loops.

Back to the point, the contnued use of traditional EBU text alongside MHEG5 is insignificant as an overhead on a mux and the organisation as they are already maintaining it for pay only TV companies.

This had already been proven haven been on until they switched it off. It takes up so little space as the teletext components are embedded with the video services.

Even if space was at a premium (which it is not as a second mux will be required either way for replacement HD services) RTENL only need to reduce the bit rate of their over indulgent SD service on RTE2HD.

At the end of the day lets face it, RTE are not blind to the high numbers of unapproved and legacy IDTVs doing the basics that filled the void for the overpriced and late to the party in short supply approved products that were on the market.

STB

marclt wrote: »

Yes, which if you're using a Sky+HD box means you won't get old fashioned teletext it unless you view via scart or RF channel.

So if anything it would make more sense for RTE to broker a deal with getting 'digital' aertel carried on Sky...

But that's another discussion thread...

Sometimes you get what you pay for..........:)

pitythefool

watty wrote: »

People have not been offered a choice in many shops.
Where there is a choice the cheaper boxes are not anywhere labelled as lacking features as well as certification. It's immoral marketing.

If people see a cheaper model with no obvious shortcomings they usually buy it. But in most cases there are NO certified boxes.

Research is key to electronics, its no immoral marketing, they dont say saor view box, they say free to air, they provide exactly what they say on the box

Extinction

Many shops and online retailers sold generic boxes as saorview compatable and in some instances called them saorview boxes. One company even branded the packaging on their aerials as saorview ready. Researching electronic equipment is a great idea if you understand what you are looking for.

pitythefool

That would cause confusion, just anothere case for if something seems too good to be true then it is, anyone in the Limerick area should pop into electrical factors in the east way business park, the staff are not on commission so total honesty will prevail, Kellihers are also good and are based all over the country

watty

The Electrical Wholesalers know almost nothing about AV products. Most sell unsuitable coax. cable for Satellite and very basic TV aerials without "baluns". They stock what sells.
They are are warehouses for trade, not retailers, so unwise to use them even for electrical advice. You need to know what you want and go in and buy it with a Wholesaler.

pitythefool

watty wrote: »

The Electrical Wholesalers know almost nothing about AV products. Most sell unsuitable coax. cable for Satellite and very basic TV aerials without "baluns". They stock what sells.
They are are warehouses for trade, not retailers, so unwise to use them even for electrical advice. You need to know what you want and go in and buy it with a Wholesaler.

Actually i would imagine they know quite a bit more as they deal in all types of cable everyday, i know people working in electrical factors and kellihers and they are very knowledgable and can hook their customers up with their top installers/customers

Extinction

They might hook them up with what they consider top installers by their own standards but would they do as Saorview suggested and refer the customers who need installers to the trade bodies recognised by Saorview? By what criteria do they rate their installers?

pitythefool

Their installers are used by all retail outlets in the city, Ger Enright to name one has all the major contracts for pubs, clubs, sky, saorview and upc

Extinction

Thats exactly my point, although saorview had recognised 3 trade bodies most retailers ignored them and used installers who weren't registered, I don't see the installer you mentioned registered with any of the trade bodies, the very same thing happened with receivers, a lot of retailers ignored approved products and pushed unapproved receivers. Retailers in many cases just ignored saorview and caused confusion leaving people asking questions regarding the loss of aertel etc.

watty

pitythefool wrote: »

Actually i would imagine they know quite a bit more as they deal in all types of cable everyday, i know people working in electrical factors and kellihers and they are very knowledgable and can hook their customers up with their top installers/customers

You may imagine. But I certainly know Electrical Factors* in particular and Wholesalers generally.

No better than Maplin or PC Word for Satellite / TV advice. Better to talk to ISAA. Or even ask here.

I have been in MANY electrical wholesalers that only have two types of "TV/Sat" coax, cobweb braid and cheapest type alloy foil RG6 clones. Neither suitable for outdoor for TV or Sat. The basic TV cobweb braid only coax is only suitable as a leaky feeder, not useful for ANY TV application.


(* Electrical Factors are great outfit. But they are a warehouse of cable and Electrical Fittings. Advice on TV/Sat isn't their business area).

pitythefool

I can only talk about my experiences with electrical factors Limerick and that has been top notch

As well as that i saw the Kellihers lads in action at the ploughing championship and they seemed very knowledgable too