Recommend a sub 2:40 marathon plan?

mo_bhicycle

Hi all,
could anybody recommend a sub 2:40 marathon plan for me please?
Preferably a plan that somebody has used to successfully run somewhere in that area.
I'm aiming to do Hamburg in the spring and I think this will be my last opportunity for a few years to aim for a fast marathon.

McMillan predicts a 2:40 marathon based on a 1/2 marathon in Sept ... but turning the predicted into reality is easier said than done.

Any hints, tips, comments appreciated

Nwm2

mo_bhicycle wrote: »

Hi all,
could anybody recommend a sub 2:40 marathon plan for me please?
Preferably a plan that somebody has used to successfully run somewhere in that area.
I'm aiming to do Hamburg in the spring and I think this will be my last opportunity for a few years to aim for a fast marathon.

McMillan predicts a 2:40 marathon based on a 1/2 marathon in Sept ... but turning the predicted into reality is easier said than done.

Any hints, tips, comments appreciated

Doesn't seem sensible to go to a forum such as boards to ask a question such as this.

Ceepo

Get a coach

Krusty_Clown

Nwm2 wrote: »

Doesn't seem sensible to go to a forum such as boards to ask a question such as this.

Why not? A number of runners on this forum have broken 2:40.

Nwm2

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Why not? A number of runners on this forum have broken 2:40.

Did they do it by getting their training plans from boards.ie?

Krusty_Clown

Nwm2 wrote: »

Did they do it by getting their training plans from boards.ie?

He's not looking for a plan. He is looking for a recommendation of a plan. The clue is in the words.

OP: I haven't broken 2:40 yet (2:43 on Monday), but will be targeting London marathon in April for a pop at the target. I will likely be following the Jack Daniels elite plan and will aim to peak at around 100 miles per week. The best advice will likely from a club/coach arrangement, but a number of runners have run sub 2:40 times (Bazman, TRR, Abhainn, Tunguska, Pronator, T runner off the top of my head). Well worth checking out the training logs of TRR and Abhainn, to see what training they did to achieve the goal.

mo_bhicycle

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

He's not looking for a plan. He is looking for a recommendation of a plan. The clue is in the words.

OP: I haven't broken 2:40 yet (2:43 on Monday), but will be targeting London marathon in April for a pop at the target. I will likely be following the Jack Daniels elite plan and will aim to peak at around 100 miles per week. The best advice will likely from a club/coach arrangement, but a number of runners have run sub 2:40 times (Bazman, TRR, Abhainn off the top of my head). Well worth checking out the training logs of TRR and Abhainn, to see what training they did to achieve the goal.

Thanks Krusty, this is pretty much exactly the kind of information I was looking for.
I'll check out that Daniels plan.

Clearlier

Some questions that come to mind that you'd find helpful to answer even if only to yourself. The bits in brackets is the reasoning behind the question.


What training did you do to get the half marathon time? (What areas of marathon training need the most work?)

Slow or fast twitch runner? (if slow then keep in touch with speed (Daniels good), if fast focus mre on endurance (P&D's periodised approach is good)

Ever run a marathon before? (how far away were you and why?)

What are your PB's at other distances? (What's your endurance like at the moment - do the times slow relatively as the distance gets longer? If so, think about Hadd)

Nwm2

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

He's not looking for a plan. He is looking for a recommendation of a plan. The clue is in the words.

OP: I haven't broken 2:40 yet (2:43 on Monday), but will be targeting London marathon in April for a pop at the target. I will likely be following the Jack Daniels elite plan and will aim to peak at around 100 miles per week. The best advice will likely from a club/coach arrangement, but a number of runners have run sub 2:40 times (Bazman, TRR, Abhainn, Tunguska, T runner off the top of my head). Well worth checking out the training logs of TRR and Abhainn, to see what training they did to achieve the goal.

That's consistent with what I wrote. The clue is in the words.

OP, if you aim to be in the top few % of anything, get yourself a coach rather than sourcing your info from some tiny backwater internet forum.

mo_bhicycle

Hey Clearlier,
answers below



What training did you do to get the half marathon time? (What areas of marathon training need the most work?)
Training averaged about 100km per week, split between 1 track session, 1 tempo session, 1 steady run or fartleks, 1 long run, and two easy days. Probably endurance was the weakest factor, in hindsight I'd have liked to up the weekly mileage to about 130km.

Slow or fast twitch runner? (if slow then keep in touch with speed (Daniels good), if fast focus mre on endurance (P&D's periodised approach is good)
Slightly on the slow twitch side. I looked at the P&D plans but felt they were a bit short on speed work for my linking.

Ever run a marathon before? (how far away were you and why?)
I ran Dublin in 2011 and finished in 2:58 (3 hours was the goal). Training has been more consistent since then, hence the improvement.

What are your PB's at other distances? (What's your endurance like at the moment - do the times slow relatively as the distance gets longer? If so, think about Hadd)
My times are pretty consistent from 5k upwards. 10 mile pb is 56:40, 5k is 16:20.

Krusty_Clown

Nwm2 wrote: »

That's consistent with what I wrote. The clue is in the words.

OP, if you aim to be in the top few % of anything, get yourself a coach rather than sourcing your info from some tiny backwater internet forum.

Most of those listed above are self-coached. I'm not saying that a club/coach arrangement wouldn't be better. In fact I have stated the opposite. Not sure why you feel the need to belittle the forum when clearly there is the experience to point the original poster in the right direction.

TRR

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Most of those listed above are self-coached. I'm not saying that a club/coach arrangement wouldn't be better. In fact I have stated the opposite. Not sure why you feel the need to belittle the forum when clearly there is the experience to point the original poster in the right direction.

I agree with KC and yes a number of people have picked up plans and advice here to run a range of times including sub 2.40s.

As an aside some running clubs can have tiny backwater coaches too

rom

Nwm2 wrote: »

OP, if you aim to be in the top few % of anything, get yourself a coach rather than sourcing your info from some tiny backwater internet forum.

You would be very surprised by the number of people who are members of this forum but don't post openly and are well inside the top 10 in the country at their distances. I know of at least two members with well known names that fall into this category who don't have more than 5 posts but do read the forum and only send PM's.

RayCun

Nwm2 wrote: »

some tiny backwater internet forum.

:pac:

I mean, I agree - join a club and get a coach, at that level you need something personalised and you need feedback - but did boards.ie piss in Nwm2's chips or spill his pint or something? :pac:

RayCun

rom wrote: »

I know of at least two members with well known names that fall into this category who don't have more than 5 posts but do read the forum and only send PM's.

ooh, intrigued now

Pronator

Your 10 mile and 5k times would suggest that you are capable of running a sub 2:40 but these distance do not necessarily translate into that sort of time.

My main concern would be that your marathon time in 2011 of 02:58 is a long way off 02:40. On the flip side it is an admirable objective time to have. Always turn a negitive into a postive:D

From my own perspective I reckon you need to find a schedule that suits you and fits in with your life circumstances (work, home etc).

Some of the off the shelf schedules including the ones listed above (P&D, Daniels etc are great but may not suit you??).

I've done a few marathons at this stage and normally like to follow a 14 weeks schedule broken down as follows -

Phase 1 - 4-6 weeks of building a base (this would be much longer if you have not got some sort of base already there). Easy - steady running, with no quality work. (Building up your aerobic capacity before the introduction of quality/anerobic works)

Phase 2 - 4 weeks - The introduction of quality work. Threshold running/repeats of some form.

Phase 3 - Sharpening phase - Getting yourself ready for the big day. A continuation of Phase 2. I would normally try and race at the end of each 4 week block, if your going for Dublin, the race series is great for this, 10k,10mile, half marathon.

Again, I repeat that you need to find something that suits you.

From a personal perspective I looked at Arthur Lydiard's approach and the building of a base that I mention above certainly comes from that. I did however find that I needed to look at the LSR also. For me running the LSR at anything less than 50 secs of PMP is not a good idea. I've been reading Jack Daniels and I like what he is doing with the LSR. For London next year I think I may introduce some of that in.

Unfortunately, there is no magic bullet. Hard work and dedication is your only way forward.

Good luck with your attempts to break 02:40;)

ThePiedPiper

Great post Pronator.

Out of interest, how many miles per week would you be doing at the various phases?
This year, I did a Lydiard-type base-building period, built it up to over a 100 miles a week for 3 consecutive weeks, the fastest run being PMP+45 seconds. I think there was huge benefit in it, as in the following phases, I PBed at every distance from 5K to marathon.

In my Phase 2 and 3, I was doing between 45 (half-marathon week) and 70, with the norm being 55-60.
I'm a bit like the OP, with a targeted and achieved marathon of 2:58.

I'm probably answering my own question here, but would 70-80 miles per week in Phases 2 and 3 be necessary for something in the 2:4x marathon range? Or would a longer and more sustained Phase 1 lead to more quality in Phase 2 and 3 on the 50-60 miles per week range?

I know everybody is different, just trying to get your general thoughts.

Peckham

+1. Great insight Pronator.

When you say "no quality work", do you mean none at all, i.e. all miles are effectively done at the same easy aerobic pace?

ThePiedPiper

Peckham, I know your question was aimed at Pronator, but my take on the base-building is that on the long, long weeks with 90+ miles and doubles, absolutely no quality work. I think in the entire 3 weeks of 100+ miles each, I ran 3 miles at marathon pace, chasing a friend on a bicycle, and sort of regretted it!

I probably had a 6 week mini-phase before the official Phase 1 where I was effectively building up mileage to get my body ready for the real Phase 1. At the end of that mini-phase (end of June), I did a 5k and a 10k race, but that was the only quality.

My Garmin report for July when I did the big mileage shows average speed of something like 7.8 mph, while Aug-Oct would be in the range from 8.3-8.8 mph. A lot of the morning runs were done at PMP + 90 seconds, evening ones at PMP + 60 seconds. Very slow.

Clearlier

mo_bhicycle wrote: »

Hey Clearlier,
answers below



What training did you do to get the half marathon time? (What areas of marathon training need the most work?)
Training averaged about 100km per week, split between 1 track session, 1 tempo session, 1 steady run or fartleks, 1 long run, and two easy days. Probably endurance was the weakest factor, in hindsight I'd have liked to up the weekly mileage to about 130km.

Slow or fast twitch runner? (if slow then keep in touch with speed (Daniels good), if fast focus mre on endurance (P&D's periodised approach is good)
Slightly on the slow twitch side. I looked at the P&D plans but felt they were a bit short on speed work for my linking.

Ever run a marathon before? (how far away were you and why?)
I ran Dublin in 2011 and finished in 2:58 (3 hours was the goal). Training has been more consistent since then, hence the improvement.

What are your PB's at other distances? (What's your endurance like at the moment - do the times slow relatively as the distance gets longer? If so, think about Hadd)
My times are pretty consistent from 5k upwards. 10 mile pb is 56:40, 5k is 16:20.

I would think that Daniels Marathon Training Plan A would suit you pretty well. Aside from the first 6 weeks the plan has at least one speed (faster than marathon pace) session in most weeks. It takes 24 weeks which would mean starting on Monday. Daniels elite training plan is good too but some of the sessions are savage and I think at this stage you'd get more out of the Marathon Training Plan A - both are good though.

You use the first 6 weeks to build to your peak mileage. I'm not sure that you'll need to build your mileage substantially to get a sub 2:40 so I wouldn't push to get a much higher peak of miles in at the risk of picking up an injury. 30% up on last time around seems like quite a lot but if you're confident your body can handle it go for it. If you're not sure then listen to your body - watch out for the subtle signs of fatigue such as difficult sleeping, elevated resting heart rate and general grumpiness - and see where you can get to. I wouldn't be terribly surprised to see you do it off your current mileage but an increase would probably help.

With those times your half must be in or around 75 mins? The 10 mile is slightly weaker than the 5k but nothing that I'd be concerned about as it could be explained by a number of factors and if it is weak endurance this training cycle will help address it.

mo_bhicycle

First of all, thanks to everybody who posted, there's some great insights in this thread and I've found it really beneficial. By the sound of things others have also.

Pronator wrote: »

...
Good luck with your attempts to break 02:40

Thanks Pronator, really great post.
2:40 may be a bit of a stretch, but I'll make a final decision based on how training is going.

Clearlier wrote: »

....
With those times your half must be in or around 75 mins? The 10 mile is slightly weaker than the 5k but nothing that I'd be concerned about as it could be explained by a number of factors and if it is weak endurance this training cycle will help address it.

Thanks Clearlier, I'll check out Daniels A plan.
My 1/2 time is 1:16:20. I completely messed up the pacing on this one, went out at a crazy speed, tough lesson learned. I think a time in the high 1:15's would have been a fairer reflection.
No pacing issues or other excuses with the 10 mile and 5k times.

Clearlier

RunForestRun wrote: »

Great post Pronator.

Out of interest, how many miles per week would you be doing at the various phases?
This year, I did a Lydiard-type base-building period, built it up to over a 100 miles a week for 3 consecutive weeks, the fastest run being PMP+45 seconds. I think there was huge benefit in it, as in the following phases, I PBed at every distance from 5K to marathon.

In my Phase 2 and 3, I was doing between 45 (half-marathon week) and 70, with the norm being 55-60.
I'm a bit like the OP, with a targeted and achieved marathon of 2:58.

I'm probably answering my own question here, but would 70-80 miles per week in Phases 2 and 3 be necessary for something in the 2:4x marathon range? Or would a longer and more sustained Phase 1 lead to more quality in Phase 2 and 3 on the 50-60 miles per week range?

I know everybody is different, just trying to get your general thoughts.

Canova has a nice line about improving by either increasing volume or intensity. What you outlined was an increase in volume in the base phase and intensity in the next phases.

As you have noted you get a lot out of just doing a lot of easy running but (and Raighne will know much better than me) I would have expected Lydiards 3/4 pace run to be at least marathon pace so if your fastest run was PMP +45s there's probably scope to increase the intensity a little in your next base phase.

If you can sustain 100mpw regularly I would expect your following phases to be in region of 80 - 90 mpw. It doesn't mean that you need to sustain 100mpw though. Given your recent history I think that you'd benefit more from say 80mpw with paces up to half marathon pace than from 110mpw with nothing faster than PMP+45s. Over time you can build that 80mpw back up to 100mpw or more.

This thread might also be interesting to read. We all change and develop our ideas as time goes by but I remember that thread as having some fairly solid ideas in it.

ThePiedPiper

Thanks for the feedback Clearlier. Interesting about the intensity in the base phase. I actually thought I was pushing the boat out a little bring the pace down to 7:25-7:30 in the evening time runs when I was doing doubles. The only real books I've read cover to cover are Lydiard's and Noakes Lore of Running.

Canova is undoubtedly a brilliant coach, my concern about closely following his theories would be that his athletes have a huge number of years base-building, and are probably sub-30 10k men before he even takes them on. I felt a little bit on a knife-edge at certain points during the high mileage weeks I did, probably a result of having built up from 0 miles per week in May to 110 in early July!!

The next time I get a chance to go for a high mileage base building phase, I'll probably try and get up to that mileage more gradually than over a 5 week period.

Thanks again for the feedback.

Pronator

RunForest,



I'd be fairly consistent in my mileage through the phases but I'd certainly reduce it slightly in 2&3 in favour of quality sessions.



My view is that the greater the base that you have the better the benefits you will realise and the body's ability to take on work/avoid injury is increased.



I ran Berlin recently but only had 8 weeks to prepare as I had a hernia op, I did a couple of 80 mile weeks but most weeks were closer to 70. This was because I did not want to risk injuring myself and I wanted to make the start line.



For London next year I will aim to run 80mpw, I'm not sure if my body will take more, the wife will not let me put in a swimming pool with underwater treadmill.



Reading back through the posts here, a good coach can be invaluable but I'd question how many good marathon are in clubs. There are good coaches but are they good marathon coaches??



Peckham - It depends on your definition of quality is?



I'd tend to agree with RunForest and limit the amount of quality you do in the base builiding phase however you could look at



- Doing some strides on an easy day (cant really be classed as quality but good for turnover)



- Do repeats of some nature at a reduced intensity with a longer intervals



- Some farlek running



But my advise would be to stick with steady/easy running and build up the mileage.

Pronator

Really should read the full thread before I post.................

Clearer you make some good points above. For me it will probably not be more than 80 mpw in the initial phase but I'll have a fair base to start from.
I believe you increase intensity or mileage but not both at the same time. Injury will follow if you do.

One of the Lydiard plans I followed had an "Out and back" run in the base building phase. The objective of this session was to go out for example 5 miles and then come back 5 miles but the second 5 should be quicker than the first 5. This in my view was done at steady pace but you could argue this was a quality session of sorts??

I'd agree you could increase you PMP+45 seconds but this needs to be weighed against the volume of work your doing and the chances of getting injured.

From reading about Canova, I think you can implement some of his principles into your training but as has been pointed out he deals with elite athletes that have massive aerobic basis. I get tired just reading his sessions, my boss would not appreciate me taking a nap in the afternoon.

There is a danger of making schedules overly complex. If you need a calculator to do a session, dont do it.

ThePiedPiper

One of the things I like about Canova is the focus on running within 10% of goal marathon pace. For somebody like myself, that works out at 45 seconds. I think it's the one thing that really differentiates himself from the Lydiard method.

Similar to what you said earlier, in Phases 2 and 3, I don't think there's huge benefit from doing any miles in my 3 quality weekly sessions at slower than MP + 10% or 45 seconds in my case. Even the recovery runs, I'd have them at MP + 60-70 seconds.

Again, thanks for the feedback, much appreciated.

Clearlier

RunForestRun wrote: »

Thanks for the feedback Clearlier. Interesting about the intensity in the base phase. I actually thought I was pushing the boat out a little bring the pace down to 7:25-7:30 in the evening time runs when I was doing doubles. The only real books I've read cover to cover are Lydiard's and Noakes Lore of Running.

Canova is undoubtedly a brilliant coach, my concern about closely following his theories would be that his athletes have a huge number of years base-building, and are probably sub-30 10k men before he even takes them on. I felt a little bit on a knife-edge at certain points during the high mileage weeks I did, probably a result of having built up from 0 miles per week in May to 110 in early July!!

The next time I get a chance to go for a high mileage base building phase, I'll probably try and get up to that mileage more gradually than over a 5 week period.

Thanks again for the feedback.

I wouldn't worry about pace so much as effort.

Mly reference to Canova was actually in a post on letsrun where he was talking about beginners and making the point that in Kenya there wasn't the same need to emphasise base so his runners didn't need to increase volume just intensity. I completely agree with Pronator about not doing volume and intensity at the same time. Somebody who is already running a traditional (mix of runs including fast intervals) 40 - 50 mpw should be able to more or less hit the different intensity levels in Lydiard straight away and focus on building volume. Easy running only for a few weeks before the beginning of a new cycle/after the end of the previous cycle is always a good idea too. It's interesting that Pronator mentions long intervals as I read Peter Snell saying that the only change he would make to Lydiard's base phase was to include intervals (although in one article I read short ones and in another I read long ones) once a week.

5 weeks to get from 0 - 110 is insane. I'm guessing that you must have done fairly high mileage at some point in the not too distant past though? I'm not surprised that all of the runs were easy either. Daniels has a points system of training which might be worth looking into. It's essentially a way to keep increasing your training stimulus whilst varying mileage.

For the benefit of anyone reading this who thinks that 0 - 110 in 5 weeks is an interesting idea think again. It's a shortcut to injury for 99.9999999% of people and you already know that RFR is the 0.0000001% so please don't even try!

Re: Canova - I would modify his sessions for a 2:40 runner. If you did all the miles at the relative pace he prescribes I think that there would be a very high chance of injury. Also, they are part of the specific phase or the last 8 - 10 week if I understand it correctly.

pconn062

Just to point out that I run in the same club as RFR and we all know he's a bit of a lunatic!

ThePiedPiper

An insane lunatic! Well, it's been said before I suppose! But yeah, Clearlier, absolutely, it's not something that I'd recommend anyone should do. I go with Lydiard's idea of two peaks per year, and in those peak few weeks, I would get in a couple of shorter races, a half marathon and a full. The spring phase ended with the London marathon in April, and with one thing and another did no training for 4 weeks. Even though training for London was far from ideal, I had a very good sustained period of running from June 2010 - February 2012, so there was a very good base already there.

I read today that Mosop is heading into NYC this weekend at 85% again. Since his Boston debut, he hasn't turned up 100% fit at any of Chicago, Rotterdam, had to bail on the Olympics and now again not quite right for New York. Some of the sessions I read about him doing are nuts, 45km at 95% marathon pace over mountains or something like that. Obviously Canova's plans are high risk even at that level. I like the theory but contrary to pconn's statement, I'm not a total lunatic!!!

ecoli

RunForestRun wrote: »

An insane lunatic! Well, it's been said before I suppose! But yeah, Clearlier, absolutely, it's not something that I'd recommend anyone should do. I go with Lydiard's idea of two peaks per year, and in those peak few weeks, I would get in a couple of shorter races, a half marathon and a full. The spring phase ended with the London marathon in April, and with one thing and another did no training for 4 weeks. Even though training for London was far from ideal, I had a very good sustained period of running from June 2010 - February 2012, so there was a very good base already there.

I read today that Mosop is heading into NYC this weekend at 85% again. Since his Boston debut, he hasn't turned up 100% fit at any of Chicago, Rotterdam, had to bail on the Olympics and now again not quite right for New York. Some of the sessions I read about him doing are nuts, 45km at 95% marathon pace over mountains or something like that. Obviously Canova's plans are high risk even at that level. I like the theory but contrary to pconn's statement, I'm not a total lunatic!!!

Just to be clear he still ran a course record here so could be a few mind games and a PB (an official one anyway) and also is no longer coached by Canova.

I do agree however its similar enough to Daniels elite plan in the way that its high/risk reward