Clutch, flywheel, or both?

TheChizler

Hello all, I hate to start a new clutch thread but none out there featured all of my symptoms, hopefully I'll be able to get some advice here.

The other day my younger brother was installing a tow-bar on my 2000 mk4 (facelift) 1.25 Zetec Fiesta. The moment he lowered the rear from the axle stands and started it there was a quiet knocking noise coming from the clutch area when disengaged, which had been only slightly present before, and hadn't changed in 4 years. This noise increases hugely when a greater load is put on the engine, such as turning on fulls/blower/electric windows. It sounds something like somebody hitting a saucepan with a wooden spoon, a dull metallic striking noise. Also when engaging the clutch in first gear, if you do it at a regular speed the car shudders violently when taking off. Also 2nd and 5th gears are easier to engage, while 3rd and 4th are very tough to get in to.

So in summary, problems are:

1. Knocking noise on engine side of clutch.
2. Shuddering when taking off.
3. Tough 3rd and 4th gears.

The clutch fluid level is fine. The fact that the knocking noise increases when the transmission is stationary and a load is put on the engine suggests that the problem is on the engine side of the clutch, so flywheel or friction disk problem? The noise really does sound like something is after snapping, so friction disk/flywheel spring? I'm not sure if the current flywheel is dual or single mass. I have suspicions of dual mass going by descriptions of the noise being made.

I'm going to have a go at replacing the clutch myself, I've been saying it's on the way out for the last 18 months... I'm a beginner with limited experience but the plan is to draft in my cousin for the day who builds rally cars, so I should be sorted from a mechanic point of view. My main question would be could of all the problems above be fixed with a new clutch kit? Or does the problem go further and will I need to source a new flywheel/clutch cylinder etc.

Thanking you in advance!

HellFireClub

I'm 100% certain 1.25 Zetec Fiesta doesn't have a Dual Mass Flywheel assembly, so you can eliminate that as being a problem. Sounds like a spring is after popping out of the clutch disc and is catching on something as it is rotating. Might not be a clutch problem, could be an engine problem either top end or bottom, you'd be better off getting it properly diagnosed by a mechanic.

Does the noise go out of it at all when the clutch pedal is pressed down?

EDIT: If you have a problem with the clutch, you are as well replacing with a 3 piece clutch kit, using a reputable brand such as LuK or Sachs. In your case, you have a Concentric Slave Cylinder which is one of the 3 parts of the replacement kit, the other 2 being a clutch disc and a clutch disc.

TheChizler

HellFireClub wrote: »

I'm 100% certain 1.25 Zetec Fiesta doesn't have a Dual Mass Flywheel assembly, so you can eliminate that as being a problem. Sounds like a spring is after popping out of the clutch disc and is catching on something as it is rotating. Might not be a clutch problem, could be an engine problem either top end or bottom, you'd be better off getting it properly diagnosed by a mechanic.

Does the noise go out of it at all when the clutch pedal is pressed down?

EDIT: If you have a problem with the clutch, you are as well replacing with a 3 piece clutch kit, using a reputable brand such as LuK or Sachs. In your case, you have a Concentric Slave Cylinder which is one of the 3 parts of the replacement kit, the other 2 being a clutch disc and a clutch disc.

Thanks for the info on the flywheel!

The noise is only there when when the clutch is pressed down. Disappears when clutch is engaged. Your spring theory fits so hopefully it's only a spring popping out or something. I'll pick up one of those 3 piece kits so, might as well replace the whole thing while I'm opening it up, 3 people have learned to drive on that car and two of them still tear the arse out of the clutch every time they change gear. Tested slip last night, with handbrake on and 3rd gear engaged my foot is barely even resting on the clutch pedal before the car cuts out.

Could a popped out spring account for the change in behavior of the gearbox? I don't see how but I don't know a whole lot.

Thanks again!

HellFireClub

Just a guide for prices:

3 piece LuK Original Equipment Clutch Kit (LuK Clutch Pressure Plate, LuK Clutch Disc, LuK Hydraulic Release Bearing): €142.66

3 Piece DriveTech Clutch Kit (DriveTech Clutch Pressure Plate, DriveTech Clutch Disc, Luk Hydraulic Release Bearing): €106.10

Including VAT, Excluding delivery.

HellFireClub

TheChizler wrote: »

Thanks for the info on the flywheel!

The noise is only there when when the clutch is pressed down. Disappears when clutch is engaged. Your spring theory fits so hopefully it's only a spring popping out or something. I'll pick up one of those 3 piece kits so, might as well replace the whole thing while I'm opening it up, 3 people have learned to drive on that car and two of them still tear the arse out of the clutch every time they change gear. Tested slip last night, with handbrake on and 3rd gear engaged my foot is barely even resting on the clutch pedal before the car cuts out.

Could a popped out spring account for the change in behavior of the gearbox? I don't see how but I don't know a whole lot.

Thanks again!

If the noise is only present when clutch pedal is depressed, it sounds like there is a problem with the clutch disc or some part of it (such as a spring), contacting the pressure plate diaphragm fingers when the clutch is being engaged. Could also be the clutch hydraulic release bearing starting to disintegrate as it approaches end of life.

TheChizler

HellFireClub wrote: »

If the noise is only present when clutch pedal is depressed, it sounds like there is a problem with the clutch disc or some part of it (such as a spring), contacting the pressure plate diaphragm fingers when the clutch is being engaged. Could also be the clutch hydraulic release bearing starting to disintegrate as it approaches end of life.

Thanks for the info! Hopefully ill be able to get those locally, I'd like to get this sorted before further damage occurs.

dgt

2000 Fiesta? Solid flywheel, no DMF

I worked on a few Fiestas, simple to work on

I did a clutch change and found that the new clutch was bigger than the old one.

When changing the clutch, change the clutch slave cylinder too. I can't stress that enough. It may be €110 but it saves the hassle of ripping out the box again when it lets go.

As for tough going into gears, new gear oil perhaps? 75 synth

A thread of mine on a box issue

TheChizler

dgt wrote: »

2000 Fiesta? Solid flywheel, no DMF

I worked on a few Fiestas, simple to work on

I did a clutch change and found that the new clutch was bigger than the old one.

When changing the clutch, change the clutch slave cylinder too. I can't stress that enough. It may be €110 but it saves the hassle of ripping out the box again when it lets go.

As for tough going into gears, new gear oil perhaps? 75 synth

A thread of mine on a box issue

Do those kits tend to come with a slave cylinder? I specified it to the guy in the motor factor and he didn't seem to know what I was talking about. Naturally I took my money and ran!

My only worry with the gears is that all of these problems occurred in the same afternoon, there was no build up, the transmission was perfect that morning. I will of course change the oil if you suggest it, but how can a problem with the clutch suddenly affect the transmission selectively in only a few places?

Also I find it pretty suspicious that the car was fine before my brother jacked up the rear, is it feasible that that could have triggered these problems when they were waiting to happen? There was an instant change when it was lowered.

HellFireClub

TheChizler wrote: »

Do those kits tend to come with a slave cylinder? I specified it to the guy in the motor factor and he didn't seem to know what I was talking about. Naturally I took my money and ran!

My only worry with the gears is that all of these problems occurred in the same afternoon, there was no build up, the transmission was perfect that morning. I will of course change the oil if you suggest it, but how can a problem with the clutch suddenly affect the transmission selectively in only a few places?

Also I find it pretty suspicious that the car was fine before my brother jacked up the rear, is it feasible that that could have triggered these problems when they were waiting to happen? There was an instant change when it was lowered.

Re the timing with the tow-bar fitting event, it could be a coincidence or it could be related, although it is hard to see the connection (unless the car was left in gear when it was jacked up on the back axle and it could have put a static load on the gearbox via the two front wheels moving somewhat as the car was being jacked up.

These are the LuK Part numbers for what you need:

619.3063.09 (This is a 2 piece LuK clutch kit containing a Clutch Pressure Plate and a Clutch Disc).

510.0111.11 (this is a Concentric Slave Cylinder, also known as a Hydraulic Clutch Release Bearing).

These two part numbers make up a 3 piece replacement clutch kit. (there is another part number for the 2 piece clutch kit starting in 618.***.09 but this is a slightly smaller clutch (180MM) that has been superceded by the one I've advised (which is a 190MM clutch), and will have a longer service life because of its greater surface area.

142 Euro for this over the counter is a good guide price for these parts, (Inc VAT).

You really should have the car properly diagnosed by a mechanic, but sure as you know, even that diagnosis is subject to the usual qualifications of stripping, deeper inspection, etc.

But there is nothing unusual about difficult clutch selection when you have a clutch failure issue. If you can get through the gears properly with the engine off, this "should" eliminate the question of any gearbox external issues (such as damaged gear selector cables & couplings at the top of the gearbox) and also any internal gearbox issues, such as gear selector rails, synchromesh assembles being defective, etc.

TheChizler

HellFireClub wrote: »

Re the timing with the tow-bar fitting event, it could be a coincidence or it could be related, although it is hard to see the connection (unless the car was left in gear when it was jacked up on the back axle and it could have put a static load on the gearbox via the two front wheels moving somewhat as the car was being jacked up.

These are the LuK Part numbers for what you need:

619.3063.09 (This is a 2 piece LuK clutch kit containing a Clutch Pressure Plate and a Clutch Disc).

510.0111.11 (this is a Concentric Slave Cylinder, also known as a Hydraulic Clutch Release Bearing).

These two part numbers make up a 3 piece replacement clutch kit. (there is another part number for the 2 piece clutch kit starting in 618.***.09 but this is a slightly smaller clutch (180MM) that has been superceded by the one I've advised (which is a 190MM clutch), and will have a longer service life because of its greater surface area.

142 Euro for this over the counter is a good guide price for these parts, (Inc VAT).

You really should have the car properly diagnosed by a mechanic, but sure as you know, even that diagnosis is subject to the usual qualifications of stripping, deeper inspection, etc.

But there is nothing unusual about difficult clutch selection when you have a clutch failure issue. If you can get through the gears properly with the engine off, this "should" eliminate the question of any gearbox external issues (such as damaged gear selector cables & couplings at the top of the gearbox) and also any internal gearbox issues, such as gear selector rails, synchromesh assembles being defective, etc.

Thanks for that! Really useful advice! I didn't think to check the gearbox with the engine off, I'll give that a go later. And I'll just ask the motor factor to order in those exact parts (or just go online).

I take your point about getting it professionally assessed, and I agree it would be safer as they would catch everything, but once they've disassembled everything they might as well do the repair work too, and from what I've heard that'll cost in the region of €4-500. Last time I had some exploratory work done on the car it cost me over a grand... Also this is something I've been wanting to do myself for years. I've read the Haynes manual and other bits online, it doesn't seem like a particularly difficult process, just lengthy. Please correct me if I'm wrong!

I'll compromise, give it a go myself, and ring a garage to rescue me if it all goes horribly wrong!

HellFireClub

TheChizler wrote: »

Thanks for that! Really useful advice! I didn't think to check the gearbox with the engine off, I'll give that a go later. And I'll just ask the motor factor to order in those exact parts (or just go online).

I take your point about getting it professionally assessed, and I agree it would be safer as they would catch everything, but once they've disassembled everything they might as well do the repair work too, and from what I've heard that'll cost in the region of €4-500. Last time I had some exploratory work done on the car it cost me over a grand... Also this is something I've been wanting to do myself for years. I've read the Haynes manual and other bits online, it doesn't seem like a particularly difficult process, just lengthy. Please correct me if I'm wrong!

I'll compromise, give it a go myself, and ring a garage to rescue me if it all goes horribly wrong!

I've done one myself, they are actually dead easy to do, once you make enough space and have the proper tools, having the proper tools to hand is the difference between a well done job that isn't hard, and having an absolute fúcking nightmare on your hands!

Be sure to let me know what price you are quoted locally for these two part numbers, I only supply trade for warranty reasons, speaking of which, when you get the Hydraulic Release Bearing, DO NOT under any circumstances, try to press the bearing or operate it by hand, take it out of the box, do not try to check it or manually check/test the stroke on it, and fit it straight to the gearbox.

TheChizler

HellFireClub wrote: »

I've done one myself, they are actually dead easy to do, once you make enough space and have the proper tools, having the proper tools to hand is the difference between a well done job that isn't hard, and having an absolute fúcking nightmare on your hands!

Be sure to let me know what price you are quoted locally for these two part numbers, I only supply trade for warranty reasons, speaking of which, when you get the Hydraulic Release Bearing, DO NOT under any circumstances, try to press the bearing or operate it by hand, take it out of the box, do not try to check it or manually check/test the stroke on it, and fit it straight to the gearbox.

I feel like Dougal after being told not to press the big red shiny button!

Are there any surprise tools I need? Looking through the Haynes book it looks like the only funny bit I might need is a circlip tool, but I've managed with a needle nosed pliers in the past. I know I must pick up some hi temp grease. I've thought about how I'll support the engine and lower the transmission, and I should manage with a bar and chain across the engine bay and hydraulic jack to lower the transmission to a trolley. Only thing I'm really lacking is somewhere warm and dry, all work so far has been on the street outside my house, must ask if I can nick someone's garage for a weekend!

HellFireClub

TheChizler wrote: »

I feel like Dougal after being told not to press the big red shiny button!

Are there any surprise tools I need? Looking through the Haynes book it looks like the only funny bit I might need is a circlip tool, but I've managed with a needle nosed pliers in the past. I know I must pick up some hi temp grease. I've thought about how I'll support the engine and lower the transmission, and I should manage with a bar and chain across the engine bay and hydraulic jack to lower the transmission to a trolley. Only thing I'm really lacking is somewhere warm and dry, all work so far has been on the street outside my house, must ask if I can nick someone's garage for a weekend!

If I was doing it on the ground, I'd support the engine from the bottom using a jack and a bit of wood, but if you can get a lend of a support beam & threaded bar, to run across the top of the engine, then all the better! It's not a big gearbox, it's an easy job to do. Just make sure you are working safely, using proper axle stands to support the front of the vehicle and also have something else in there in case one should fail.

TheChizler

HellFireClub wrote: »

If I was doing it on the ground, I'd support the engine from the bottom using a jack and a bit of wood, but if you can get a lend of a support beam & threaded bar, to run across the top of the engine, then all the better! It's not a big gearbox, it's an easy job to do. Just make sure you are working safely, using proper axle stands to support the front of the vehicle and also have something else in there in case one should fail.

Just realised my reply yesterday didn't go through for some reason.

No worries on the jacking front, I've got a few timber joists that I throw under the wheels as a back up to the stands. And I've just secured a heated shed so no freezing my fingers off!

Only able to get one price so far for the exact LuK 2 piece kit, €125.26 + VAT, they couldn't find the slave cylinder/hydraulic release bearing so quoted an equivalent; €175 inc VAT which seems a bit steep, especially as a garage gave the ballpark figure of €350-400 for the entire job . This leaves me a bit suspicious that something has been lost in translation.

I hate to be constantly annoying you with questions but would it be a good idea to finally invest in a torque wrench? I've been saying I'll get one for years but I've been making do with a socket wrench and luggage scales up to now

HellFireClub

TheChizler wrote: »

Just realised my reply yesterday didn't go through for some reason.

No worries on the jacking front, I've got a few timber joists that I throw under the wheels as a back up to the stands. And I've just secured a heated shed so no freezing my fingers off!

Only able to get one price so far for the exact LuK 2 piece kit, €125.26 + VAT, they couldn't find the slave cylinder/hydraulic release bearing so quoted an equivalent; €175 inc VAT which seems a bit steep, especially as a garage gave the ballpark figure of €350-400 for the entire job . This leaves me a bit suspicious that something has been lost in translation.

I hate to be constantly annoying you with questions but would it be a good idea to finally invest in a torque wrench? I've been saying I'll get one for years but I've been making do with a socket wrench and luggage scales up to now

Yeah wouldn't be a bad idea to invest in a torque wrench, especially if you don't have experience with the tightness that bolts need to be. Personally I don't use one for clutch work unless of course I'm replacing a Dual Mass Flywheel, I might use one then depending on the vehicle.

Re prices, someone trying to put a saddle on you there, part nums I've put up there are correct for your vehicle, very standard part mums & those are trade prices. I think someone there is quoting you retail prices, which I suppose is fair enough as you are a retailer...

TheChizler

Right picked up a 3 piece LuK clutch kit for €188, part no. 619.3063.34, suppose that's ok for retail prices! I'll post again when I get the job done and/or it inevitably all goes belly up. Thanks again for all the advice!

TheChizler

Job's a good-un! Ended up getting a 3-piece clutch kit in the end; part no. 619 306 334 for €188.27, plus an amount I won't specify on transmission oil... Did the disks as well at €27.90 apiece. That's a 185 mm friction disk so got an extra 5 mm to last me that bit longer.

The condition of the disk itself wasn't too bad, no cracks or chips or anything. That said the friction material was level with the surrounding steel. The pressure plate however was another story;



Two of the three springs where the actual pressure plate connected to the body had snapped, hence the knocking noise when I had the clutch disengaged.

Transmission is working like a dream now! Didn't know a clutch could feel so soft (I bled it properly!). The old concentric slave cylinder was full of crud so I had been used to the resistance this caused, I honestly thought something was wrong when I first tested it, had to get someone else to drive it to convince me that was what it was supposed to feel like.

One thing, currently I am running the transmission with no fluid, only doing very short journeys. I have been assured that this is ok (very temporarily!). Can't figure out which plug is for filling it/checking the level! Must have a google and get this done tomorrow afternoon before the car is needed for a journey of any length.

So I want to say thanks for all the help! I must now go deal with a very sceptical brother who is just looking for excuses to get a new car and believes I've done something to it. He says that before he could see the bonnet from the driver seat and now he cant, therefore I've broken the suspension :rolleyes:. Told him to just raise his seat

Pete67

I hope you were joking but just in case: don't drive the car at all without oil in the gearbox - or you will be needing a new gearbox. I know of a case where a gearbox disintegrated 1 mile down the road after having a clutch fitted - they forgot to put the oil back in the box.

TheChizler

Pete67 wrote: »

I hope you were joking but just in case: don't drive the car at all without oil in the gearbox - or you will be needing a new gearbox. I know of a case where a gearbox disintegrated 1 mile down the road after having a clutch fitted - they forgot to put the oil back in the box.

Cheers, I was afraid there'd be some example of that happening... Any idea where the filler plug is? If you could perhaps point it out this image? I know it's for the 1.3 but they're almost identical.



The manual says it's on the "front face of the transmission ... the plug furthest from the engine - do not confuse it with the blanking plug near the bellhousing". In my tired state everything was near the bellhousing. I emptied it from the plug in the centre of the picture in the middle.

On mine there is a plug with female hex hole flush with the main housing about 12 cm above the drain plug. Could that be it?

TheChizler

There's possibly a better picture here:



From a bit of googling I can see it's probably a Hex bolt I'm looking for, so probably the one just above the drain plug?? I wouldn't be so nervous to go investigating if the book hadn't given such unclear instructions as to what would be the wrong one, I'm presuming the 'consequences could be dire' if I took off the wrong one. I've heard of people dropping gears from such foolishness!

Pete67

TheChizler wrote: »

On mine there is a plug with female hex hole flush with the main housing about 12 cm above the drain plug. Could that be it?

That sounds like it. Check the quantity of oil required from the manual, and don't put any more than that in. The oil level should reach the filler plug just before adding the full amount as there will be a small amount of oil remaining in the box.

Use the correct oil - as far as I remember it's fully synthetic, I get mine directly from a Ford dealer, which is not significantly more expensive than the local motor factors for lubricants.