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Distance from bathroom to copper cylinder is 20 meters

  • 31-10-2012 12:32pm
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,225
    ✭✭✭


    I live in a bungalow. The hot press (and copper cylinder) is on one gable and the main bathroom is on the other gable, a distance of 20 meters.

    Getting hot water to the bathroom is very wasteful and takes a long time and I want to improve the situation. Moving the hot press is not an option.

    Is there a system whereby I could pump recirculating hot water to a secondary tank in the attic above the bathroom?

    What in your opinion are my options?


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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,257 Pete67
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    You don't need a secondary tank - you can add a return loop from the bathroom to the existing hot water cylinder. You will need to install some new piping for the return leg, 1/2" should be fine, and a small circulator (pump) with a suitable timer. The hot water return is piped into the bottom of the cylinder. Make sure all of the DHW pipes are very well insulated as they will now be hot continuously.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,225 WestWicklow1
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    Pete67, thank you for the response. It sounds much easier than I thought so I have loads more questions if you don't mind....

    Where would I take the return from? Just before the tap?
    Would the pump simply recirculate for one minute in every five for example on a timer as you say?
    Could a second bathroom be supplied on the one loop?
    Do you know of a diagram anywhere online?

    Thanks again for the help.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,257 Pete67
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    You will need to drain down the cylinder and hot water piping, then find the cold water supply to the cylinder, and remove the elbow where it enters the cylinder and replace it with a tee, this will give you a point to connect to the discharge side of the circulating pump. (or just cut the cold water supply below the isolating valve and install a tee there)

    Use a small bronze body pump designed for this purpose - Grundfos do them, probably lots of others too. Run a 1/2 inch line from the pump suction to the bathroom(s) and tee it into the hot water supply as close to the bath/shower/sink as you can. Don't forget isolating valves either side of the pump for future servicing. Also use short flexibles on both sides of the pump to minimise noise transmission to the pipework. If you can keep the return line lower than the outlets so you don't create any high points which might get airlocked.

    Insulate the entire hot water piping, including fittings, or you will lose a lot of hot water when the circulation pump is running. Time the pump to run at the times when you want immediate hot water in the bathrooms, probably morning and evenings. Some people leave them running 24/7 but that seems quite wasteful to me, both in terms of hot water heat loss and electricity consumption.

    Suitable pump range here.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,404 corkgsxr
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    Important to insulate very well. Armaflex preferably. If you have a uninsulated loop you'll loose heat at a fierce rate


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,516 Outkast_IRE
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    put it on a timer for the times when you expect the bathroom to be in use mostly.

    Example if you get up a 7 time it for 7, if you expect heavy usage at 9 at night time it for 9 at night.

    its a waste of money. having it on all day if theres noone to use it.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,965 gifted
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    [QUOTE=Pete67;81519313]You will need to drain down the cylinder and hot water piping, then find the cold water supply to the cylinder, and remove the elbow where it enters the cylinder and replace it with a tee, this will give you a point to connect to the discharge side of the circulating pump. (or just cut the cold water supply below the isolating valve and install a tee there)

    Use a small bronze body pump designed for this purpose - Grundfos do them, probably lots of others too. Run a 1/2 inch line from the pump suction to the bathroom(s) and tee it into the hot water supply as close to the bath/shower/sink as you can. Don't forget isolating valves either side of the pump for future servicing. Also use short flexibles on both sides of the pump to minimise noise transmission to the pipework. If you can keep the return line lower than the outlets so you don't create any high points which might get airlocked.

    Insulate the entire hot water piping, including fittings, or you will lose a lot of hot water when the circulation pump is running. Time the pump to run at the times when you want immediate hot water in the bathrooms, probably morning and evenings. Some people leave them running 24/7 but that seems quite wasteful to me, both in terms of hot water heat loss and electricity consumption.

    Suitable pump range here.[/QUOTE]

    Don't forget to fit a non return valve on the cold supply above the tee that you connect into. This will stop any heat from going back up the cold feed


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,225 WestWicklow1
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    Thanks for all the great advice. I'll let you know how I get on.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,113 freddyuk
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    Just a word of warning you will be stirring up the natural stratification in the DHW cylinder so taking hot water from the top where it naturally wants to be and pumping into the cold water at the bottom thus heating the bottom of the tank which is not where the hot is drawn from. The result is energy losses.
    If you check the temperature at the cold inlet it will be cold.Ideally you want to fit a new inlet higher up the cylinder so you are mixing hot water with hot water.This will still cause disruption to the natural layering in the cylinder but hopefully reduce the losses. Is the pipe run in 22mm? That holds a lot of water.
    Consider a system pump to pump the hot water system for the bathroom using 15mm pipe not 22mm(3/4) as this will get hot water across 20m in double quick time. Only need to run the pump on demand. You are buying a pump anyway so cost is not an issue but you can avoid extra pipe run.
    What do the plumbers think? (I am assuming this is a vented system).
    Another idea is to just heat the last few meters of pipe with heat tape as it is presumably be the basin that you want to have instant hot water for? There will be enough hot water in the pipe to fill the basin. A bath does not matter as you will be mixing hot and cold anyway.Heat tape can be thermostat controlled and timed and well insulated like a mini cylinder.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 680 sanbrafyffe
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    very well said freddy,,,i thought i was losing it there for a bit,,,as far as i can remember to take a secondary return circuit off you keep it higher in the cylinder,,,there is cylinder you can get with a connect 1/3 way down to connect into for you circuit,,,,,

    makes absolute no sense to bring the leg in at the cold feed,,,the stratiication issues with the cylinder come into affect,,

    the only time you shud take from the bottom of the cold feed and top of the cylinder nis when ur installing an wilson emmersion (willy warmer):D





    freddyuk wrote: »
    Just a word of warning you will be stirring up the natural stratification in the DHW cylinder so taking hot water from the top where it naturally wants to be and pumping into the cold water at the bottom thus heating the bottom of the tank which is not where the hot is drawn from. The result is energy losses.
    If you check the temperature at the cold inlet it will be cold.Ideally you want to fit a new inlet higher up the cylinder so you are mixing hot water with hot water.This will still cause disruption to the natural layering in the cylinder but hopefully reduce the losses. Is the pipe run in 22mm? That holds a lot of water.
    Consider a system pump to pump the hot water system for the bathroom using 15mm pipe not 22mm(3/4) as this will get hot water across 20m in double quick time. Only need to run the pump on demand. You are buying a pump anyway so cost is not an issue but you can avoid extra pipe run.
    What do the plumbers think? (I am assuming this is a vented system).
    Another idea is to just heat the last few meters of pipe with heat tape as it is presumably be the basin that you want to have instant hot water for? There will be enough hot water in the pipe to fill the basin. A bath does not matter as you will be mixing hot and cold anyway.Heat tape can be thermostat controlled and timed and well insulated like a mini cylinder.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 142 brophis
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    In relation to controlling when the pump comes on, maybe you could use a sensor that triggers the pump when you enter the bathroom? Would depend on the response time I guess.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,225 WestWicklow1
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    Can anyone tell me if this is what I need....

    http://ie.grundfos.com/products/find-product/comfort/jcr%3acontent/tabbedpanel/brochures/par2/downloads/download_974d/file/file.res/113656_Comfort_PM_Auto_Adapt_broch_low.pdf

    ...if it is, do I need to install a return to create a circulation loop? If not, how does it work?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 278 jimjimt
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    Have a look you can keep your existing cylinder.


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