JP Wootton & Brendan McConville Case Weaknesses

fasttalkerchat

Read this on another forum and thought it interesting. My own personal take is that I do not support Armed Struggle but the tactics used by the justice system have been shocking!
Here are some examples from a site supporting the men.

FACTS OF THEIR CASE - BULLET POINTS

The prosecution star witness did not come forward until eleven months after the shooting by which time Brendan McConville’s name had been widely broadcast in the media.

The prosecution star witness continuously lied under oath.

The prosecution star witness contacted the police on a number of occasions while drunk or drinking, including on the first occasion he had contacted them in the middle of the night.

The prosecution star witness was proved to be suffering from astigmatism and short sightedness and would have difficulty identifying facial features at more than eight yards.

The distance between the path along which the prosecution star witness walked and the electricity box, where he claimed to have seen Brendan McConville is just over sixteen yards.

The prosecution star witness was accompanied by his partner on the night in question, yet she is unable to confirm his version of events.

The prosecution star witness conceded never having spoken to Brendan McConville before, and living away from the area for some years.

The prosecution star witness is in receipt of a weekly income from the PSNI. He also receives an allowance for childcare and has had loans and overseas holidays facilitated for his children along with other financial benefits.

An anonymity order was sought by the prosecution and awarded on behalf of their star witness. This prevented the media from publishing any details about the witness’ name or description. This order meant that if someone had information that could contradict or undermine the witness’ account or character, they would not know to bring this information to the attention of the court.

The prosecution sought and were awarded an order to allow their star witness to give his evidence via a video link up facility, even though his identity had been disclosed to Brendan McConville and John Paul Wootton. Added to this is the fact that no members of the public were permitted to enter the court. This had the effect of making it impossible to fully judge the demeanour of the witness.
Large extracts of the prosecutions star witness statement to the police had been redacted.

The prosecution star witness gave evidence that when he claimed to have seen Brendan McConville, he was wearing a knee length, green army coat with a German logo. The coat recovered from a vehicle with the DNA of Brendan McConville on it was a brown waist length jacket.

The jacket discovered in the vehicle which was owned by John Paul Wootton and claimed by the prosecution to have been used on the night of the shooting was completely dry, even though it had rained very heavily that night.

The prosecution expert conceded that along with the DNA of Brendan McConville there were mixed profiles of at least three other peoples DNA on the coat and possibly as many as eight.

The prosecution expert conceded that DNA could have been distributed on the coat as a result of Brendan McConville speaking over it or sneezing over it while in the car on another occasion.

The prosecution expert conceded that a residue discovered on the coat may be from a non-firearm source.

When the police searched the homes of Brendan McConville and John Paul Wootton they were asked to seize any clothing and footwear that were wet or muddy. No such items were found.

Shortly after the shooting police discovered a fire in the Drumbeg estate adjacent to the housing development where Constable Carroll was shot. On closer examination they found that items of clothing had been burnt.

The vehicle owned by John Paul Wootton and claimed by the prosecution to have been used in some way in the shooting was not parked close to the scene of the attack but was in fact parked just short of one quarter of a kilometre away, in the middle of a housing estate adjacent to the housing development where Constable Carroll was shot.

The vehicle claimed by the prosecution to have been involved in the shooting did not make a hasty get away but in fact did not even leave the area where it had been parked until ten minutes after the shooting.
A tracking device fitted to the vehicle shows that the vehicle at no time went anywhere near the housing estate where the AK47 used in the shooting was later discovered.

Data from the tracking device was mysteriously wiped while the device was in the hands of the army. No plausible explanation was ever given as to why this happened.

Evidence given in court stated that the tracking device would register the car door being opened and closed.

When the vehicle which police believed may have been used in the killing of a police officer was being taken away for forensic examination, at no time were the army technical officers called to examine it for suspect devices, as is the normal protocol. Instead it was removed by a civilian pick-up company, raising suggestions that the army had already accessed the vehicle earlier that night and which could account for the need to wipe the data and possibly account for the residue on the coat.

It was claimed by the prosecution that John Paul Wootton might have dropped Brendan McConville off close to his home after the shooting as the vehicle passed close by the home of Brendan McConville after it left the housing estate where it had been parked up until ten minutes after the shooting. In reality there were only two directions available to John Paul Wootton for his journey to his own home, and both routes passed close to the home of Brendan McConville. There was no evidence from the tracking device that anyone exited the vehicle close to the home of Brendan McConville.

The prosecution sought and were awarded Public Interest Immunity Orders to prevent the disclosure or mention any evidence which could have assisted with the defence of Brendan McConville and John Paul Wootton.

When the AK47 that was used in the shooting was discovered, a partial fingerprint was found on the internal spring mechanism of the magazine. This fingerprint was checked against the fingerprints of Brendan McConville and John Paul Wootton. No matches were found.

When the prosecution star witness came forward, the police failed to carry out the mandatory identification parade thus denying Brendan McConville the protection of the code. The code exists to protect the suspect.

Lord Justice Girvan, the presiding judge and notional jury, asked the prosecution barrister if he could draw an adverse inference against Brendan McConville because of the police failure to carry out an identification parade. Even the prosecution barrister seemed somewhat taken aback by this and answered “no”.

Brendan McConville and John Paul Wootton were denied the right to a trial by a jury of their peers but instead had a Diplock trial with a single judge acting as what the court terms a “notional jury”.

There was no evidence that Brendan McConville or John Paul Wootton had participated in any event leading to the death of Constable Carroll.

http://justiceforthecraigavontwo.com/facts-of-their-case/

Einhard

www.justiceforthecraigavontwo.com ...such an objective site!

Second bullet point-

The prosecution star witness continuously lied under oath.

How is this a fact? Who decided that the witness lied? The jury/judge decided that he was credible, yet we're supposed to dismiss that and instead take the word of some anonymous blogger?

I think that the weaknesses most apparent here are those evident in the blog.

fasttalkerchat

I didn't edit it at all. As I mentioned this is totally from their side but they do but forward some points that makes you question if policing has made the reformation its claimed.

Death and Taxes

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

Read this on another forum and thought it interesting. My own personal take is that I do not support Armed Struggle but the tactics used by the justice system have been shocking!
Here are some examples from a site supporting the men.

Here we go again..the lizardpeople did it and ran away!

Fratton Fred

It's funny how everyone is totally against the Dissidents, yet anyone who is arrested is innocent and is being held on trumped up charges.

fasttalkerchat

WileyCoyote wrote: »

Here we go again..the lizardpeople did it and ran away!

I'm not questioning whether republicans did it, just pointing out how people are being held without evidence again and how normal judicial procedures are ignored. Even more recently, before Colin Duffy was released, "evidence" was presented to the judge in the absence of Duffy or a legal representative.

fasttalkerchat

Fratton Fred wrote: »

It's funny how everyone is totally against the Dissidents, yet anyone who is arrested is innocent and is being held on trumped up charges.

Anyone? There are plenty of men in Maghaberry and other prisons who did what they were charged with doing. There are also some republicans who have been arrested and held purely because they openly disagreed with the Sinn Fein position.

GRMA

Gerry Conlan has spoken out on this, obviously a raving dissident. He sees history repeating itself.

Its become obvious that the PSNI is not fully reformed, or the justice system. Many of the temporary things brought in during the troubles have become permanent. With the recent arrest in Belfast we have SF acknowledging what has been obvious, there is a continuity RUC element in the PSNI, many of the ex ruc people have been disgracefully rehired.

OP you're wasting your time, many people on this forum would defend any rationale for locking up republicans no matter how unjust.

fasttalkerchat

GRMA wrote: »

Gerry Conlan has spoken out on this, obviously a raving dissident. He sees history repeating itself.

Its become obvious that the PSNI is not fully reformed, or the justice system. Many of the temporary things brought in during the troubles have become permanent. With the recent arrest in Belfast we have SF acknowledging what has been obvious, there is a continuity RUC element in the PSNI, many of the ex ruc people have been disgracefully rehired.

OP you're wasting your time, many people on this forum would defend any rationale for locking up republicans no matter how unjust.

Unfortunately so, Boards isn't a good place for anything left wing or republican sounding.

guttenberg

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

Anyone? There are plenty of men in Maghaberry and other prisons who did what they were charged with doing. There are also some republicans who have been arrested and held purely because they openly disagreed with the Sinn Fein position.

That JP fellas computer was examined and he's been the star of a few "show of strengths" etc. he was also found to have tried to gain information about a different police member. Even if there was a few holes in the prosecutions case, does that really prove they didn't do it? Plus, to be honest, blaming Sinn Fein is BS. NI has progressed to the point where people would rather accept what they have, progress it peacefully, just as long as the bombs/guns stop. What progress has the murders of Const. Carroll or David Black etc. etc. etc. really done to progress the republican dissident groupings (32CSM/RNU/Eirigi/IRSP/RSF etc.) political objectives or mandate? F all!

fasttalkerchat

guttenberg wrote: »

That JP fellas computer was examined and he's been the star of a few "show of strengths" etc. he was also found to have tried to gain information about a different police member. Even if there was a few holes in the prosecutions case, does that really prove they didn't do it? Plus, to be honest, blaming Sinn Fein is BS. NI has progressed to the point where people would rather accept what they have, progress it peacefully, just as long as the bombs/guns stop. What progress has the murders of Const. Carroll or David Black etc. etc. etc. really done to progress the republican dissident groupings (32CSM/RNU/Eirigi/IRSP/RSF etc.) political objectives or mandate? F all!

He doesn't need to be proven innocent, just not enough to prove beyond all reasonable doubt that he's innocent.
I'm not blaming SF, just point out that there is this idea that we should lock up everyone who disagrees with the exact SF timing of ending the armed struggle.

fasttalkerchat

Here's an open letter from JP Wootton:

My name is John Paul Wootton and I am now twenty years of age and I have been imprisoned in Maghaberry prison for the last three years, that is, from I was 17 years of age.

On the 10th of March 2009, while still a teenager, I was arrested and interrogated for thirteen days in relation to the fatal shooting of Constable Steven Carroll in Craigavon on the 9th of March 2009. From the outset of this period of interrogation I made it clear that I neither knew nor had any part in this incident and indeed the duration of my interrogation was only ended when my legal representative took out a legal injunction.

On the 30th of March 2012, after a trial before a Diplock court, I was convicted and sentenced to a life sentence for the killing of Constable Carroll on the basis of a tracking device that had been fitted to my car at some point and which allegedly placed me at the scene of the shooting. However, the device in question, which had been placed there by members of MI5, went missing for a period of time and when it was finally recovered portions of the data allegedly recorded on the device were missing! These ‘gaps’ were supposedly filled by an MI5 operative who gave his evidence at the trial anonymously from behind a screen and his explanation for the data going missing was that, ‘he had left it on his desk and someone had moved and then replaced it without his knowledge’!

Additional to the missing data, the examination of my car, during the period of the missing data, also produced a brown coat that had particles of gun powder residue on it. These particles did not match the rifle or ammunition recovered by the PSNI that was claimed by the prosecution to have been the weapon that fired the fatal shot which killed Constable Carroll. This coat, which was a central piece of evidence in the case, not only did not belong to me but it had no physical connection to me, that is, no traces of my DNA, fibres or fingerprints were found on the coat.

In short, there was no physical evidence presented to the trial that linked me to this shooting rather a process of speculation and hypothesis that turned the legal principle of innocence until proven guilty on its head was applied.

During the trial my legal team attempted to tease out the anomalies of this case to demonstrate the complete lack of evidence against me, however, at each attempt they were met with the barrier of ‘Public Interest Immunity Orders’ being sought and granted to the prosecution. As a result of this crucial lines of inquiry about the movements of my car and the particles on the coat were denied to my defence.

As a consequence of all of the above I have instructed my legal team to appeal the conviction against me on the grounds that I did not receive a fair trial for the following reasons;

I was refused the right to a trial by jury and instead I was tried by a single judge in a Diplock court,

This single judge in the absence of any physical evidence against me resorted to negative inference and opinion,

Evidence which may have assisted my defence or undermined the case against me was kept hidden from my legal team through the use of Public Interest Immunity Orders,

Several witnesses were granted anonymity thereby preventing the defence from properly cross examining them.

I would like to thank you for taking the time to read this short description of what has happened to me and I would ask you to do all that you can to highlight this miscarriage of justice in the hope that I will get the chance of a fair trial at my appeal.

Further information on the legal detail of this case and the summary of the original trial are also contained on this web site. Please feel free to use them to demonstrate the scale of the injustice involved or to contact my legal representatives with any enquiries.

Thank you,

John Paul Wootton.

For me it points out again that no court case happened! It was a diplock court and when his team challenged the PSNI it was ruled that there was a "‘Public Interest Immunity Orders" meaning that no questions could be asked.
Sky news picked up on the jacket but there was nothing said about it after a few days. If you're going to plant evidence at least make it fit!

GRMA

Support to overturn this miscarriage of justice and free the Craigavon Two is growing.



O Cuiv has previously invited the families and supporters in to Leinster house to share their story and tell TDs about their campaign. I can't believe I am praising a Fiann Fáiler. ( ) but credit where credit is due.

The campaign is supported by Gerry Conlon, if anyone knows a miscarriage of justice it's him.

Gerry Conlon, a victim of an infamous British miscarriage of justice, has launched a campaign demanding justice for two Craigavon men.

Mr Conlon, who received a personal apology in 2005 from the then British prime minister, Tony Blair, says he believes Brendan McConville and John Paul Wootton may have also been wrongfully convicted of an IRA attack — as he was in 1975.

In March 2009, a Continuity IRA sniper attack on a police patrol responding to a 999 call claimed the life of Stephen Carroll, a member of the PSNI and RUC police for over 24 years. The attack, coupled with a deadly ‘Real IRA’ attack on Massereene British Army base the day before, led to an extraordinary security backlash and the arrest of Mr McConville, a former Sinn Fein councillor, and John Paul Wootton, then just 17 years of age.

After a fraught and confused trial, McConville was handed a sentence of at least 25 years, while 20-year-old John Paul Wootton was told he would serve a minimum of 14 years.

Speaking to the Belfast-based Irish News, Mr Conlon, chairman of the Justice for the Craigavon Two campaign, says the convictions are unsafe.

“I have to say I am not a republican in any shape or form and I do not advocate anything to do with republican dissidents, violence or anything,” he says.

“I am a human rights activist and this is a really disturbing case.”

He said he believes authorities were under immense pressure to secure a conviction. He said the authorities “had such a terrible result in relation to the Omagh bombing, in relation to Sean Hoey, then they had the farce with the UVF men and their super-grass trial”.

“Then you had the acquittal of Colin Duffy,” he said.

“I don’t know if these guys are innocent but what I do know is they didn’t get a fair trial.”

Mr Conlon said he is concerned that McConville and Wootton, who will appeal their convictions next year, have been unfairly targeted.

“There seems to be a rush in this climate when people are unable to find out who is doing what,” he said.

“They arrest people to satisfy the anger of the public and the outrage of politicians.

“That can’t be the basis for any fair judicial society if someone has suffered a grave and gross miscarriage of justice.

“It’s outrageous to think that to sustain a peace process that we could now have justice as a casualty.”

15 YEARS BEHIND BARS

Conlon’s story is well known from the film ‘In the Name of the Father’, which told the story of Conlon and his father Guiseppe and their campaign for freedom.

Arrested just before Christmas in 1974, the young Belfast man was wrongly convicted in October the following year after he was accused of taking part in a Provisional IRA campaign in Britain.

Three others – Paul Hill, Paddy Armstrong and Carol Richardson – were also charged in connection with an attack in Guildford, and became known as the Guildford Four.

It later emerged that Mr Conlon made a false confession after being beaten and tortured.

Guiseppe Conlon, who had travelled from England to help his son, was sentenced to 12 years after he was arrested in the north London home of Annie Maguire along with six others and accused of possession of nitro-glycerine which at the time was used by the IRA to make bombs.

Each of the Maguire Seven, who were all jailed from periods of between four and 14 years, were later found to be completely innocent.

Despite a campaign for his release, Guiseppe Conlon died in Hammersmith Hospital in January 1980, five years into his jail term.

WARNING

His son warned that their tragic experience at the hands of British justice could be repeated.

“We can’t have innocent people going to jail and 15 years down the line them being released and their lives ruined and not only that, the lives of their families being ruined,” said Mr Conlon.

“But you have to have the courage of your convictions to stand up for what you believe in and I believe a miscarriage of justice took place here on the basis of all the evidence I have read.

“Would I want someone I know to stand trial on this evidence? The answer is no.”

He said he intends to raise the issue with all the north’s political parties and the Dublin government in the coming weeks.

“Everything I have read leads me to believe this is a miscarriage of justice,” he said.

“It runs on a parallel with Guildford, Woolwich and Birmingham.”

EVIDENCE?

Among the doubts about some of the evidence used to convict the pair are accounts provided by a man known only as ‘Witness M’ who gave evidence against McConville.

He claimed that while out for a walk on the night of the attack he saw the accused.

During the trial defence solicitors said that ‘Witness M’ was a “Walter Mitty type character who liked to tell tales”.

They said ‘Witness M’ lied to the court “at least twice and maybe three times” about the state of his eyesight and that he changed his account of what he claims to have seen.

Although ‘Witness M’ denied he had issues with his eyesight, he is believed to suffer from astigmatism, which prevents the eye from focusing properly, as well as short-sightedness.

Campaigners say it would have been impossible for ‘Witness M’ to identify McConville on the night of the shooting at the distance he claimed to have seen him.

During the men’s trial it was also claimed that a jacket owned by the former Sinn Fein councillor was found by police in the boot of a car owned by Wootton.

‘Witness M’ claimed to have seen McConville wearing a green knee-length coat with a German army logo.

The coat recovered from Wootton’s car was a brown waist-length jacket, campaigners say.

As well as containing McConville’s DNA the jacket also contained samples of firearm residue and DNA belonging to several other people.

Campaigners believe the presence of numerous DNA samples and McConville’s denial that the jacket belonged to him casts doubt on the reliability of the evidence.

http://justiceforthecraigavontwo.com/news/

guttenberg

To say O Cuiv wants to overturn anything is pushing it a bit far, no? he's agreed to go as an impartial observer. If I went to it, it doesn't imply I'm in support/against McConville and Wootton does it?

GRMA

guttenberg wrote: »

To say O Cuiv wants to overturn anything is pushing it a bit far, no? he's agreed to go as an impartial observer. If I went to it, it doesn't imply I'm in support/against McConville and Wootton does it?

O Cuiv is testing the waters... I'm told he is very supportive of the families efforts.

fasttalkerchat

Brian Shivers - Not guilty! The sad thing is that he is terminally ill and has spend the last couple of years of his life behind bars because of British Justice.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-21029185

LordSutch

Am I correct in saying that he has been released on a technicality?

guttenberg

LordSutch wrote: »

Am I correct in saying that he has been released on a technicality?

Pretty much, there doesn't appear to be any doubt regarding his DNA being on the matches in the getaway car, so he still had some form of involvement in this sad event.

Nodin

LordSutch wrote: »

Am I correct in saying that he has been released on a technicality?

The law is built on "technicality". He hasn't been released as of yet either. Apparently he's to be held until they decide whether or not to charge him with something else.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-21029185

Fratton Fred

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

Brian Shivers - Not guilty! The sad thing is that he is terminally ill and has spend the last couple of years of his life behind bars because of British Justice.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-21029185

so how long should he spend behind bars? he was involved in helping to destroy evidence regarding the murder of two soldiers.

His conviction of murder has been quashed, the fact that he was involved seems to be pretty much certain.

as of yet, the two murdered soldiers and the injured pizza delivery driver have yet to see any justice, are you as outraged about that?

probably not.

GRMA

Justice for British soldiers used to mean getting any aul paddy and batter him until he confessed and if he didn't lord diplock and co would send him down anyway. Surely these days it should mean finding actual guilty people. Very hopeful now that the craigavon two will be released given the even more dubious nature of their conviction.

fasttalkerchat

Fratton Fred wrote: »

as of yet, the two murdered soldiers and the injured pizza delivery driver have yet to see any justice, are you as outraged about that?

probably not.

I have sympathy for their families and I don't support what happened that night.
There is a dangerous pattern emerging around the brits not following due process time and time again. "Lost" evidence, dubious claims, people held without charge and then re-arrested after their release is ordered.

The dissidents are nothing. A few hot heads and old ex-provos who think they know it all. Yet they are getting hundreds turning out at events because of the injustices. History repeating itself? Both sides are doing their best!

Fratton Fred

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

I have sympathy for their families and I don't support what happened that night.
There is a dangerous pattern emerging around the brits not following due process time and time again. "Lost" evidence, dubious claims, people held without charge and then re-arrested after their release is ordered.

The dissidents are nothing. A few hot heads and old ex-provos who think they know it all. Yet they are getting hundreds turning out at events because of the injustices. History repeating itself? Both sides are doing their best!

Due process is being followed though, so what is the problem?

fasttalkerchat

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Due process is being followed though, so what is the problem?

When someone is held after a trial with no jury and no evidence presented to the defendant or his/her legal representative you will excuse my belief that there is no due process when it comes to suspected republicans and their sympathisers.

Fratton Fred

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

When someone is held after a trial with no jury and no evidence presented to the defendant or his/her legal representative you will excuse my belief that there is no due process when it comes to suspected republicans and their sympathisers.

What trial? It was an appeal that decided the murder verdict was unsafe. He hasn't been found not guilty. The evidence is the same and his lawyers have it all.

You have no time for dissidents, but you want someone involved in a cowardly murder to be set free? Why is that?

This is why these people believe they can do what they do, because people keep defending them.

fasttalkerchat

Just heard that Shivers was released earlier today. Not sure if charges have been totally dropped or if they will lift him again tomorrow on different charges.

guttenberg

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

Just heard that Shivers was released earlier today. Not sure if charges have been totally dropped or if they will lift him again tomorrow on different charges.

I heard he was released on bail, and not charges dropped? surprising really, I don't think there was much doubt whether or not it was his DNA found on the matches used to try torch the getaway car?

guttenberg

Scratch the above, it seems he refused to take bail as it had the proviso that he wears an electronic tag. I don't understand his logic of doing so, but c'est la vie, he remains inside Roe House.

fasttalkerchat

guttenberg wrote: »

Scratch the above, it seems he refused to take bail as it had the proviso that he wears an electronic tag. I don't understand his logic of doing so, but c'est la vie, he remains inside Roe House.

Scratch that again. He was released with all tagging conditions lifted.
I would imagine refused to be tagged like a criminal or animal. I don't think a political prisoner has ever work a tag.

Fratton Fred

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

Scratch that again. He was released with all tagging conditions lifted.
I would imagine refused to be tagged like a criminal or animal. I don't think a political prisoner has ever work a tag.

What's a political prisoner?

Tramps Like Us

Case against them was surely torpedoed today

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-24521812

guttenberg

He admits that he has been intimidated so what's to say he's not being coerced into criticising his son? it doesn't mention how good/bad the father/son relationship is.

Tramps Like Us

guttenberg wrote: »

He admits that he has been intimidated so what's to say he's not being coerced into criticising his son? it doesn't mention how good/bad the father/son relationship is.

Intimidated by the cops yeah, aside from the arrest thing where they tried to get him to say he was lieing, two of them (two individuals who intimidated him before and were involved in the shenanigans) sat in the front row eyeballing him today when he was on the stand.

Godge

Tramps Like Us wrote: »

Intimidated by the cops yeah, aside from the arrest thing where they tried to get him to say he was lieing, two of them (two individuals who intimidated him before and were involved in the shenanigans) sat in the front row eyeballing him today when he was on the stand.

From your own link it seems that this new witness has been subject to intimidation from both sides.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-24521812

"Detailing further alleged consequences of his son's testimony, he said: "If I as up the town they would shout 'there's the tout's da'. "Once in the bar this fella put his hand up like this, as if he had a gun." He added: "My nerves are shattered."

At one stage prosecution counsel asked if he made things up when it suited him. "No," the man replied. But he agreed when it was put to him: "Would you accept you have some difficulty remembering specific events?"

Tramps Like Us

If he was being forced to give testimony surely he wouldnt mention anything like that? If anything the fact that he did tells me that he is being honest

.jacksparrow.

Case after case, but yet people just won't admit there is some sort of problems with justice in the north, and both governments feeding the public whatever propaganda suits their agenda.

The herald and Sunday world are took as gospel down here, anything they print about republicans is true, even though there is never an ounce of credibility to back it up.

Fratton Fred

.jacksparrow. wrote: »

Case after case, but yet people just won't admit there is some sort of problems with justice in the north, and both governments feeding the public whatever propaganda suits their agenda.

The herald and Sunday world are took as gospel down here, anything they print about republicans is true, even though there is never an ounce of credibility to back it up.

Are you claiming that Constable Carroll wasn't killed by republicans?

.jacksparrow.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Are you claiming that Constable Carroll wasn't killed by republicans?

Where did I once give that impression?

Tramps Like Us

.jacksparrow. wrote: »

Where did I once give that impression?

Maybe he is implying that any republican will do

.jacksparrow.

Tramps Like Us wrote: »

Maybe he is implying that any republican will do

Implying? If you have something to say just say it, what's the point in implying something.

Everyone knows republicans carried it out, but who it was remains to be seen.

Either way it was stupid and a coward murder which does feck all to achieving a united Ireland.

Fratton Fred

.jacksparrow. wrote: »

Implying? If you have something to say just say it, what's the point in implying something.

Everyone knows republicans carried it out, but who it was remains to be seen.

Either way it was stupid and a coward murder which does feck all to achieving a united Ireland.

But anyone who gets arrested will automatically have hundreds of people claiming they are innocent and are only being arrested because they are republicans.

I love the article in the OP ny the way. It claims their car couldn't have been used because it wad parked a massive quarter of a kilometre away.

A whopping 250metres, wow!

Tramps Like Us

Fratton Fred wrote: »

But anyone who gets arrested will automatically have hundreds of people claiming they are innocent and are only being arrested because they are republicans.

I love the article in the OP ny the way. It claims their car couldn't have been used because it wad parked a massive quarter of a kilometre away.

A whopping 250metres, wow!

You have no concerns about the conviction given the star witness has been discredited? Should be a retrial at the very least, personally I think they should be let go as they are innocent.

getzls

Einhard wrote: »

.

Wonder what lovers of peace fund this site?

Fratton Fred

Tramps Like Us wrote: »

You have no concerns about the conviction given the star witness has been discredited? Should be a retrial at the very least, personally I think they should be let go as they are innocent.

He's been discredited by someone who is receiving death threats.

You know for certain they are innocent do you? If people are so convinced they are innocent, they could, you know, help the PSNI.

Tramps Like Us

Any taig will do for you? A lot of high profile campaigners like Gerry Conlon and various others, after reviewing the case have expressed concern over the conviction, they fact that you wont even contemplate concerns about the conviction says something

Fratton Fred

Tramps Like Us wrote: »

Any taig will do for you? Ag

If you are trying to win people over, I suggest you change your attitude. Implied accusations like that just weaken your argument.

TOMASJ

Heard today that the brit soldiers who mudered 13 innocent men 41 years ago in Derry MAY BE QUESTIONED.
with some of the posters on here getting animated regarding the dissapperance of evidence and due process,when it involves other than a brit murdereds
wonder do the same posters think that justice for the people murdered in Derry is long overdue