5 ways to improve Irish Rugby long term

goreyguy

Just trying to generate some ideas that would help improve Irish Rugby over the long term, say in the next 10 years.

As its not the dominant sport on the Island, rugby has to continue to try and think of creative ways to get more young people involved.

What you guys got?

Deano7788

goreyguy wrote: »

Just trying to generate some ideas that would help improve Irish Rugby over the long term, say in the next 10 years.

As its not the dominant sport on the Island, rugby has to continue to try and think of creative ways to get more young people involved.

What you guys got?

Have less focus on results at underage. Seriously, the way some parents or coaches react to a mistake is ridiculous and can be offputting. It also discourages players trying something different and prevents skill development.

danthefan

1. Sack Declan Kidney

Podge_irl

I really like the NZ set up of playing underage rugby on the basis of weight limits rather than age limits. Promotes better skill development rather then shoving your largest player at 10 and having him run through the opposition.

norrie rugger

Remove the focus on schools rugby.

goreyguy

norrie rugger wrote: »

Remove the focus on schools rugby.

doesnt schools rugby not produce a majority of the players?

Yamanoto

norrie rugger wrote: »

Remove the focus on schools rugby.

Perhaps reduce the focus on Cup Rugby

Tox56

Whatever the Leinster schools system is doing, it's working. A lot of talent coming out of there

roycon

introduce a group stage into the schools cup system

rotate player positions at underage levels as much as possible so that players have an even skillset

introduce the twinning of smaller schools teams to create joint teams in the schools senior cup system

irishbucsfan

roycon wrote: »

introduce a group stage into the schools cup system

rotate player positions at underage levels as much as possible so that players have an even skillset

introduce the twinning of smaller schools teams to create joint teams in the schools senior cup system

While these all sound good, we also need to ween ourselves off an over-reliance on schools rugby and start to grow the club game further at underage levels.

If we could even integrate the competitions in some way it would be great.

[Jackass]

1. Sack Kidney
2. Remove and replace senior IRFU officials, the old boys blazer club, and remove IRFU interference from provincial affairs and let them flourish naturally.
3. Rotate Management on 4 year (world cup) cycles, avoid provincial BS within management.
4. Set up national academy to compliment those of the provinces, use senior coaching staff to benefit all young provincial players and have sessions with senior players in the off-season. Use national academy set up to pool the talents, staff and knowledge of all the provinces.
5. Progressive selection policy and widen the net of international representation. Remove emphasis from playing our best team in every game for fear of defeat and world rankings and trust in player ability. If he's good enough, he's old enough. Hire coach not afraid to drop the dead wood and send first team regulars who aren't good enough but selected on which province needs players improved the most and cap the actual best young talent and target them regardless of province.

All of the above, with the exception of Kidney eventually going, will never happen. The IRFU are scared stiff of the provinces and their success and want to chop them off at the ankles to prevent them from overtaking importance from the national team, so want to drag them down rather than face their own inadequecies and try to keep up.

Also the old boys club dictates the morons who will get the Irish job and keep it and the board room decides who needs to be in the squad to try and keep a province competetive both because of the home connections and pride, but also to keep the money coming in from traditional bandwagoners. (and every provence gets a bandwagon when going good)

Central Contracts should be available only on a 1 year basis. Coaches being forced to select guys that haven't played any noteworthy rugby in the past 6 months simply because they're already being paid to be available for the games is baffling.

In an ideal scenario, we wouldn't have central contracts, players would simply receive the same payments that they would on a central contract, but on a pay-per-play system.

Reward guys who've earned the right to represent Ireland, not pick guys that have been paid already to represent Ireland.
It's so backwards it hurts!

jorgejorgeson

norrie rugger wrote: »

Remove the focus on schools rugby.

Thats a bizarre suggestion. If it wasnt for the private schools who support the schools cups then a small country like ours wouldnt be able to produce a competitive international side from such a small player base. The forgotten people behind the golden era in Irish rugby are the teachers who volunteer to coach our future stars and the parents of students who pay for the development of Irish rugby through school fees. Thank God we have he likes of Blackrock College and Clongowes Wood who are truly inspiring academies of rugby, as good as you will find anywhere in the world

GerM

Implement a scheme whereby young Irish coaches spend a season abroad, being exposed to different methods and approaches. There is a complete lack of innovation among the Irish coaching fraternity and they have been unable to move as quickly as the game. A season spent working with a top NPC side in NZ would be very beneficial and develop the next generation of coaches rather than relying on repeated imports. These are the guys coaching our academies, U20 sides and SCT teams. Improve things from the bottom up.

Also, as others have stated, an overhaul of the schools system is required. A system whereby schools are completely occupied with one, short term tournament is not healthy. It's insane to think that the majority of talent in the country is solely concentrated in about two dozen schools. There are huge numbers of potential internationals who are never identified.

Obviously money is a massive issue but in a perfect world, the IRFU would run clinics and hold talks in all schools around the country, promoting the game and the attraction of a rugby career. I suspect they'd face significant opposition in a number of hardcore GAA areas though. Baby steps required on that one.

durkadurka

Allow Drico free reign to impregnate as many sisters of internationals as possible.

CIARAN_BOYLE

durkadurka wrote: »

Allow Drico free reign to impregnate as many sisters of internationals as possible.

I think Amy might have trouble accepting that one

Personally I think the All Ireand League eats up too many resources since travelling the length of the country is expensive. I'd like to see a one or maybe two division AIL with the rest of the teams in the AIL eaten up by the appropiate provincial leagues.

Swiwi

Podge_irl wrote: »

I really like the NZ set up of playing underage rugby on the basis of weight limits rather than age limits. Promotes better skill development rather then shoving your largest player at 10 and having him run through the opposition.

Totally agree. Kiwis of Pacific Island heritage will always be 10x bigger for the same age than the skinny white fullas.

desertcircus

jorgejorgeson wrote: »

Thats a bizarre suggestion. If it wasnt for the private schools who support the schools cups then a small country like ours wouldnt be able to produce a competitive international side from such a small player base. The forgotten people behind the golden era in Irish rugby are the teachers who volunteer to coach our future stars and the parents of students who pay for the development of Irish rugby through school fees. Thank God we have he likes of Blackrock College and Clongowes Wood who are truly inspiring academies of rugby, as good as you will find anywhere in the world

The focus on schools rugby is one reason for the small player base. Vast numbers of potential players are missed because they never get the training or gametime at a serious level that they need. We need as many kids as possible getting as much exposure to the game as possible, something that isn't helped by the insane level of effort and attention placed on a straight cup contest where three-quarters of the players never get a third match.

norrie rugger

goreyguy wrote: »

doesnt schools rugby not produce a majority of the players?

And why would this be?
Focusing funds, coaching and importance towards a very small section of underage players. Of course it produces better players. Club underage coaching is not supported to a high enough level.

norrie rugger

jorgejorgeson wrote: »

Thats a bizarre suggestion. If it wasnt for the private schools who support the schools cups then a small country like ours wouldnt be able to produce a competitive international side from such a small player base. The forgotten people behind the golden era in Irish rugby are the teachers who volunteer to coach our future stars and the parents of students who pay for the development of Irish rugby through school fees. Thank God we have he likes of Blackrock College and Clongowes Wood who are truly inspiring academies of rugby, as good as you will find anywhere in the world

So let's continue to ignore 90% of the underage playing pool while also not developing the game into wider areas?
Naturally gifted kids are not being developed, as they are not lucky enough to be able to go to the private schools

ambid

durkadurka wrote: »

Allow Drico free reign to impregnate as many sisters of internationals as possible.

Aha - I always suspected durkadurka was O'Driscoll in disguise! You've just blown your cover BOD!

irishbucsfan

That is all pretty irrelevant. Noone is saying Schools rugby should be less productive. Noone is criticising schools' rugby. We should retain the power of schools' rugby while focusing on ensuring that youths rugby grows as much as possible.

There are players coming out of youths that have never existed in Schools' rugby. Farmers like Sean O'Brien! They're even producing tightheads in New Ross now! So let's try and milk that clubs cow* for everything it's worth.

*(See that pun? That's the sort of pun that just doesn't develop in schools rugby.)

davegrohl48

Try and reduce the amount of kicking in the underage game. Maybe below u14. Wales and England look to be heading down the route of producing American Football sized rugby players. I'm not sure we can compete with that looking at the handling skills of our larger players. So maybe do like France do and compete by having superiour handling across Forward and Backs. To develop that handling have underage rugby that is high tempo and more based around passing than kicking. Maybe that involves taking kicking out of the underage game below a certain age.

Hagz

davegrohl48 wrote: »

Try and reduce the amount of kicking in the underage game. Maybe below u14.

In the school I went to you weren't allowed kick a ball till you got to about third year (at which point I would have been like 14), apart from conversions and kick-offs obviously. I think it's a good way of improving kids handling as you say. I would have played rugby for around 6 years before I was allowed to kick a ball in a game.

Teferi

I don't think kicking is a huge part of the game below Junior Cup level to be honest.

MrDerp

norrie rugger wrote: »

So let's continue to ignore 90% of the underage playing pool while also not developing the game into wider areas?
Naturally gifted kids are not being developed, as they are not lucky enough to be able to go to the private schools

I played for Highfield in Cork in the 90s and the underage development was excellent. I have a trophy for every year I played (though I was only a starter when I was in the older year of a 2 year cycle), and plenty of players came from other clubs to Highfield to join that setup.

The schools regularly came to us early in the season with the Juniors and Seniors to get a good match, and we beat them as often as they did us. Later in the season it would have been harder to compete with the amount of practice and fitness they'd have, but we easily had the quality they did.

I did wonder in my later years, however, at parents getting more excited about scouts from the schools than they did the Munster trials, but I'm sure there's still quality coming through the underage clubs in Cork. CBC (where I went to school) in particular, took a lot of players from clubs in my time, but these players are the product of their clubs first and foremost.

In the south, the AIL and Munster are just as littered with club players as schools players.

I actually think the schools system is a big part of why we have competed as a rugby nation. Don't you think O'Gara nailing last minute kicks has something to do with nailing them at 15 years old in Musgrave/Thomond park? You have well-drilled kids learning to control their nerves in front of thousands of people.

The only point I agree on so far is the point about weight-classing the kids instead of age-classing. But trying to remove competitive schools rugby? This isn't U12s which chicken scrums, and a lot of the good comes from that experience.

If you took away the schools game tomorrow, and everyone joined clubs, you'd immediately lose the past pupils, parents and sheer numbers of kids at a big Junior/Senior cup day - something that would never be replicated by club finals.

norrie rugger

MrDerp wrote: »

I played for Highfield in Cork in the 90s and the underage development was excellent. I have a trophy for every year I played (though I was only a starter when I was in the older year of a 2 year cycle), and plenty of players came from other clubs to Highfield to join that setup.

The schools regularly came to us early in the season with the Juniors and Seniors to get a good match, and we beat them as often as they did us. Later in the season it would have been harder to compete with the amount of practice and fitness they'd have, but we easily had the quality they did.

I did wonder in my later years, however, at parents getting more excited about scouts from the schools than they did the Munster trials, but I'm sure there's still quality coming through the underage clubs in Cork. CBC (where I went to school) in particular, took a lot of players from clubs in my time, but these players are the product of their clubs first and foremost.

In the south, the AIL and Munster are just as littered with club players as schools players.

I actually think the schools system is a big part of why we have competed as a rugby nation. Don't you think O'Gara nailing last minute kicks has something to do with nailing them at 15 years old in Musgrave/Thomond park? You have well-drilled kids learning to control their nerves in front of thousands of people.

The only point I agree on so far is the point about weight-classing the kids instead of age-classing. But trying to remove competitive schools rugby? This isn't U12s which chicken scrums, and a lot of the good comes from that experience.

If you took away the schools game tomorrow, and everyone joined clubs, you'd immediately lose the past pupils, parents and sheer numbers of kids at a big Junior/Senior cup day - something that would never be replicated by club finals.

I said remove the focus on, not disband

bamboozle

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

I think Amy might have trouble accepting that one

Personally I think the All Ireand League eats up too many resources since travelling the length of the country is expensive. I'd like to see a one or maybe two division AIL with the rest of the teams in the AIL eaten up by the appropiate provincial leagues.

i'd go with the above

two AIL leagues with 10 in the higher one with top 4 playoff and 8 in the 2nd division with 2 up 2 down.

Clubs then be given full access to contracted players to further improve the quality.

The standard in the AIL has improved greatly in the last 3-4 seasons.
Lansdowne last weekend had O'Connell, Sexton & Moore in their front row, Matt Healy on the wing, Tadhg Beirne on bench & John Cooney at 9.

Fringe provincial players would greatly benefit from game time at a high quality AIL level.

Apart from that, get rid of the blazers

focus more on the U20's
dare i say bring in EOS as COnnacht coach to make the most out of the backs they've got coming through.

oh and replace DK who has been poor as national coach.

ormond lad

1) Remove the focus on straight knockout competitions as the main competition for underage teams. More games in competition gives more kids games, chances to learn as players in pressure environments
2) Integrate the schools and youths systems at younger age groups
3) Try get to the stage where every club fields at every underage level no matter how many kids who could play with them are in rugby playing schools and cant play club rugby from u13-u19.

Schools rugby has been great and has produced the majority of the players who have went on to play for the provinces and ireland but their is problems with the schools system as the lack of cooperation between clubs/schools, focus on SCs has led to huge drops in playing numbers in 17-21 age group.

DeDoc

There is no doubting the positive contributions of the various schools to rugby in this country.
That isn't to say that we can't and shouldn't examine the system carefully to see what could be changed for the better.

Personally I think the skills development of a lot of players takes a distant back-seat to fitness, physique and defensive organisation, and I think the knock-out nature of the cup competition has a lot to do with that. There is also the fall-off of players - I'm sure we all know of star schools players who just stopped playing when they left school as they'd just had enough. I think there is also a bit of a black hole for talented players who may be slower developers - either physically, mentally or emotionally. Kids at that stage have a lot of other things going on in their lives and there are many who might well have the talent who "don't fit" at a certain stage and as a result never get another chance.

Jawgap

goreyguy wrote: »

Just trying to generate some ideas that would help improve Irish Rugby over the long term, say in the next 10 years.

As its not the dominant sport on the Island, rugby has to continue to try and think of creative ways to get more young people involved.

What you guys got?

Define "improve".....what are we talking about here - national team performance? Better AIL rugby? Domination of European Competition by the provinces?

Some of these might be mutually exclusive.

1. I'd do something about youth / juvenile rugby - the school system works insofar as it turns out a selection of decent players, but I'd also suggest it's quite wasteful in terms of the number of mid and 'lesser' ability players who could perform well in junior clubs - if some way was found to retain them, it would add to the vibrancy of the club scene. there are too many differences between club youth and school rugby - a 16 year old should be playing, training and learning the same regardless of whether he's in a rugby school or not - that probably means clubs and schools integrating better. It would also be great if there was some way of mirroring the competition at club level that kids get at school level.

2. I'd invest a decent bit of cash in Connacht - maybe re-focus it as a high performing academy type set up where young players (under 25) and young coaches go to be hot-housed.

3. Set up a decent Sevens infra-structure and even a series of 10-a-side competitions / tournaments for younger players (U15 and up)

4. Get Conor O'Shea in as Director of Rugby in the IRFU, give him a budget and then stay out of his way

5. Run 'street leagues' during the summer - get the CDOs, local clubs etc to organise them - there's no soccer and not a whole lot in the way of GAA - target the 11 to 13 age group.

.........

and if all that fails start a Lingerie League - mightn't do much for participation, but it would bump attendances:D

Might sound silly but increase focus on basic skills of each position at underage playing with the ball rather than churning out gym monkeys. Our players need to be up to it physically as the game is going more and more that way at the moment but unless they are comfortable at the basics of their job then they are no use to you regardless of size.

I.E. Hooker should be comfortable throwing at lineout time, scrum half should be comfortable passing off both hands, anyone in the back three should be able to kick the ball comfortably. All players should be comfortable passing the ball and carrying possession in the right manner, offloading in the tackle etc.

Some things can only be learned with games and technique and some players just can't develop certain skills but there are some basics that have to be drilled in to players from the off if we are to push on any further. Look through the provincial system and even the national team and see how many players who have played multiple times for your province or country who still consistently fall down on the basics.

Top teams do the basics well all of the time. Once you have a certain skillset obtained, you can move your gameplan forward but you can't play and all singing all dancing game if you have no scrum, lineout, scrum half etc.

VanDerWaffy

1.Sack Kidney.

2.Get the skills coach at Leinster (I believe his name is Richie Murphy) and have him do skills training for youths year round across the country all year round.

3.Educate youths coaches on strength and conditioning. Its not size that counts its power. NZ are generally smaller in weight (so they get around the pitch and move quicker) but a hell of a lot stronger. Thats down to better strength and conditioning techniques. It seems Irish teams still think doing simply the core 5 : squats,power cleans,deadlifts,bench and pull ups is all that matter. Throw in some box jumps and sprints and suddenly they think they've mastered plyometrics. Its simply not enough

4.Year round school league format with a top 4 finish and subsequent play offs at schools level.

5.A reshuffle of the top brass at the IRFU

Jawgap

Borders no.2 wrote: »

Might sound silly but increase focus on basic skills of each position at underage playing with the ball rather than churning out gym monkeys. ......

At age grade (up to about 15) I'd say the focus should be on the basics - running, tackling, passing, kicking, rucking and mauling - for everyone. Then from about 14/15 onwards start sorting players into definite positions.

The main problem (as I see it) is that 'big' lads are tagged as props or forwards - but the lad who is a big 12 year old can be physically fairly average sized at 15, but doesn't have the basic skillset to move to another position. Once players get to about 15 they've done most of their growing. The NZ approach of streaming players by weight is a pretty good model to follow.

.....and as for the gym, I'd ban any coach who encourages or lets any player under the age of 18 near a gym

That said, I think in terms of young player development rugby and the IRFU are ahead of the game compared to soccer and GAA.

ormond lad

MrDerp wrote: »

I played for Highfield in Cork in the 90s and the underage development was excellent. I have a trophy for every year I played (though I was only a starter when I was in the older year of a 2 year cycle), and plenty of players came from other clubs to Highfield to join that setup.
Highfield have 1 of the best underage systems in the country and nearly always have strong underage sides including players who've moved from other clubs. Their 18s who won the all ireland in 08 and beat nenagh in the munst final were an excellant side and had several interpros and irish stars including current munster academy player james cronin
The schools regularly came to us early in the season with the Juniors and Seniors to get a good match, and we beat them as often as they did us. Later in the season it would have been harder to compete with the amount of practice and fitness they'd have, but we easily had the quality they did.

I did wonder in my later years, however, at parents getting more excited about scouts from the schools than they did the Munster trials, but I'm sure there's still quality coming through the underage clubs in Cork. CBC (where I went to school) in particular, took a lot of players from clubs in my time, but these players are the product of their clubs first and foremost.
They still do take a lot of players from the clubs especially at under17 level when in munster the 4 regional sides play each other in games that help decide the following seasons munster youths squad
In the south, the AIL and Munster are just as littered with club players as schools players.

I actually think the schools system is a big part of why we have competed as a rugby nation. Don't you think O'Gara nailing last minute kicks has something to do with nailing them at 15 years old in Musgrave/Thomond park? You have well-drilled kids learning to control their nerves in front of thousands of people.

The only point I agree on so far is the point about weight-classing the kids instead of age-classing. But trying to remove competitive schools rugby? This isn't U12s which chicken scrums, and a lot of the good comes from that experience.

If you took away the schools game tomorrow, and everyone joined clubs, you'd immediately lose the past pupils, parents and sheer numbers of kids at a big Junior/Senior cup day - something that would never be replicated by club finals.

I dont think anybody has looked to remove competitive schools rugby. I think some people have looked for a change to how the main competitions schools compete in are structured.

Jawgap wrote: »

Define "improve".....what are we talking about here - national team performance? Better AIL rugby? Domination of European Competition by the provinces?

Some of these might be mutually exclusive.

1. I'd do something about youth / juvenile rugby - the school system works insofar as it turns out a selection of decent players, but I'd also suggest it's quite wasteful in terms of the number of mid and 'lesser' ability players who could perform well in junior clubs - if some way was found to retain them, it would add to the vibrancy of the club scene. there are too many differences between club youth and school rugby - a 16 year old should be playing, training and learning the same regardless of whether he's in a rugby school or not - that probably means clubs and schools integrating better. It would also be great if there was some way of mirroring the competition at club level that kids get at school level.
Schools system is wasteful in many ways. Like some of the biggest schools are fielding 4/5 teams at senior level. Where do all these players go and are they directed to go anywhere when they leave school?
Especially those who are not the "stars" on the Senior Cup teams.
Munster youths committee several seasons ago changed the format of their competitions at the older age groups to give kids more games at a higher standard.
The 08/09 season was the last season where only 4 teams competed in the playoffs to decide the munster champions at u16 and u18 level. from 09/10 season 16 teams competed in the pan-munster section giving teams more games against clubs at a higher standard
2. I'd invest a decent bit of cash in Connacht - maybe re-focus it as a high performing academy type set up where young players (under 25) and young coaches go to be hot-housed.

3. Set up a decent Sevens infra-structure and even a series of 10-a-side competitions / tournaments for younger players (U15 and up)

4. Get Conor O'Shea in as Director of Rugby in the IRFU, give him a budget and then stay out of his way

5. Run 'street leagues' during the summer - get the CDOs, local clubs etc to organise them - there's no soccer and not a whole lot in the way of GAA - target the 11 to 13 age group.

.........

and if all that fails start a Lingerie League - mightn't do much for participation, but it would bump attendances:D

Nice ideas.
If 7s is to do well here at all we have to start from the bottom up and have regular competitions throughout the country at all levels at various standards and have clubs/schools/county competitions etc

nice_guy80

play all schools rugby on a league basis.

ensure all junior team members in school get to play at least one half every 3 games during the league. it should be about player development, not winning.

promote sevens in clubs, schools and provinces.
you could have a great inter-county sevens tournament. imagine Cork v Limerick, or Dublin v Kildare, Antrim v Galway. The possibilities would be huge.

nice_guy80

Jawgap wrote: »

5. Run 'street leagues' during the summer - get the CDOs, local clubs etc to organise them - there's no soccer and not a whole lot in the way of GAA - target the 11 to 13 age group.

.........

er, isn't that the height of the GAA season? the summer? and in the likes of Dublin don't the GAA have under 11, 12, 13 and 14 grades?

rrpc

ormond lad wrote: »

1) Remove the focus on straight knockout competitions as the main competition for underage teams. More games in competition gives more kids games, chances to learn as players in pressure environments
2) Integrate the schools and youths systems at younger age groups
3) Try get to the stage where every club fields at every underage level no matter how many kids who could play with them are in rugby playing schools and cant play club rugby from u13-u19.

Schools rugby has been great and has produced the majority of the players who have went on to play for the provinces and ireland but their is problems with the schools system as the lack of cooperation between clubs/schools, focus on SCs has led to huge drops in playing numbers in 17-21 age group.

I'm not sure that's particularly true. I heard very recently that Old Belvedere have a panel of 70 players at under 21 level. That's a phenomenal number of players at that level in just one club.

Jawgap

rrpc wrote: »

I'm not sure that's particularly true. I heard very recently that Old Belvedere have a panel of 70 players at under 21 level. That's a phenomenal number of players at that level in just one club.

I don't know much about Old Belv's U21, but it would be interesting to see where the players came from - did they come through Old Belv or have they played their age grade and school rugby somewhere else and then gravitated towards Old Belv?

To pick up a couple of points, I think schools rugby is generally excellent and club age grade rugby should move towards a comparable level of competition, rather than the schools competition be watered down. I'm not sure how you do that though, but better co-operation between schools and clubs would be a good start to develop the game and make sure that players have multiple routes to continue playing the game.

My sense is that GAA competitions are played on a weekend, leaving the evenings of weekdays during the summer holidays free for rugby 'street leagues.' If that doesn't work, some way of bringing rugby to local parks on an organised basis should be developed - I think soccer is quite popular because you can pretty much play it anywhere, the same is not true of rugby so the places where it can be played should be maximised.

Inter-county Sevens sounds like a good idea.

ormond lad

Jawgap wrote: »

I don't know much about Old Belv's U21, but it would be interesting to see where the players came from - did they come through Old Belv or have they played their age grade and school rugby somewhere else and then gravitated towards Old Belv?

To pick up a couple of points, I think schools rugby is generally excellent and club age grade rugby should move towards a comparable level of competition, rather than the schools competition be watered down. I'm not sure how you do that though, but better co-operation between schools and clubs would be a good start to develop the game and make sure that players have multiple routes to continue playing the game.

My sense is that GAA competitions are played on a weekend, leaving the evenings of weekdays during the summer holidays free for rugby 'street leagues.' If that doesn't work, some way of bringing rugby to local parks on an organised basis should be developed - I think soccer is quite popular because you can pretty much play it anywhere, the same is not true of rugby so the places where it can be played should be maximised.

Inter-county Sevens sounds like a good idea.

When you say club age grade rugby should move to a comparable level of competition what exactly do want to be done?
GAA competitions are played throughout the week. I would be more interested in getting kids playing more rugby in october-march/april than april/may-september/october.

Jawgap

Better organisation of competitions - in Leinster up to U17 level the organisation is casual - I know it relies a lot on volunteers, but its very hit and miss.

Plus there is no follow on - if you win your league there's no progression to maybe play a team of comparable ability from one of the other provinces. My view is that there should be a series of structured competitions for teams of different abilities / age groups that culminate in a finals day at the Aviva.

The actual 'game' they play to get there, whether it be small-sided, modified rules etc or the route of qualification is a bit of a side issue - personally, I'd favour qualification through a series of round robin tournaments.

The main reason for doing this is perception - at the moment the perception among younger players is that the higher reaches of the game are only open to you if you go to a certain school, and if you want to improve rugby long term then that perception (whether it's true or not is academic) needs to be eliminated.

ormond lad

Jawgap wrote: »

Better organisation of competitions - in Leinster up to U17 level the organisation is casual - I know it relies a lot on volunteers, but its very hit and miss.

Plus there is no follow on - if you win your league there's no progression to maybe play a team of comparable ability from one of the other provinces. My view is that there should be a series of structured competitions for teams of different abilities / age groups that culminate in a finals day at the Aviva.

The actual 'game' they play to get there, whether it be small-sided, modified rules etc or the route of qualification is a bit of a side issue - personally, I'd favour qualification through a series of round robin tournaments.

The main reason for doing this is perception - at the moment the perception among younger players is that the higher reaches of the game are only open to you if you go to a certain school, and if you want to improve rugby long term then that perception (whether it's true or not is academic) needs to be eliminated.

The organisation of underage rugby isnt perfect but its fairly good.
I dont think there is any need for official all ireland competitions below what is already in place.
The 4 provincial champions play each other at 17s/19s level and each province has different formats for its leagues like in leinster there is regional leagues which are separate to all leinster leagues which are divided into 2/3 divisions while in munster there is regional leagues and the top 4 teams from each region qualify for a pan munster section.
The irish u16/18 now u17/19 finals have not been played in lansdowne road for well over a decade and have mainly been played in Naas. I agree with you there and the u17/19 all ireland finals should be played in somewhere like the Aviva/RDS/Thomond Park.

rrpc

Jawgap wrote: »

I don't know much about Old Belv's U21, but it would be interesting to see where the players came from - did they come through Old Belv or have they played their age grade and school rugby somewhere else and then gravitated towards Old Belv?

I know two of them didn't come through Belvedere, so I presume that it's down to the usual decision tree in these cases such as where your mates are playing, what's the handiest location from home/college or even how good the coaching is or how well the club is doing etc.

The point is that there are obviously good numbers coming through from clubs and schools and they are continuing to play rugby. I suspect the likes of Blackrock and Marys would have similar numbers.

Edit: A quick look at their respective websites shows they both have two U21s teams. Lansdowne also have two and Old Wesley one.

Jawgap

ormond lad wrote: »

The organisation of underage rugby isnt perfect but its fairly good.
I dont think there is any need for official all ireland competitions below what is already in place.
The 4 provincial champions play each other at 17s/19s level and each province has different formats for its leagues like in leinster there is regional leagues which are separate to all leinster leagues which are divided into 2/3 divisions while in munster there is regional leagues and the top 4 teams from each region qualify for a pan munster section.
The irish u16/18 now u17/19 finals have not been played in lansdowne road for well over a decade and have mainly been played in Naas. I agree with you there and the u17/19 all ireland finals should be played in somewhere like the Aviva/RDS/Thomond Park.

As I said 16s/17s and up is pretty good so I'd agree with you on that point.

Minis - I'd say are excellent - there's a great balance between fun, basic skills development and participation. Lots of blitzes and the atmosphere around them is great.

If there is a 'problem' it's from 12s to 15s - basically from when the kids start playing full pitch and 15-a-side to when the development squads starting looking at them. To my mind, the competitions here are a bit 'lost' - and it's an important age window because it's when a lot of lads (and ladies) start deciding which sport to focus on so rugby has to offer more than GAA and soccer. Also, kids at this age love competition, which is not to say they like losing, but the ones I coach certainly thrive when there is something on the line.

In GAA (and soccer to a lesser extent) - there's a clear line between club, representative honours and national or elite teams. I'd say the line in rugby is clear but it runs from schools to representative honours to the elite level, meaing players in clubs only may feel they're in a cul-de-sac - I know there's plenty of examples of players who do come through the clubs to higher levels, but that's not happeing in sufficient numbers.

ormond lad

Jawgap wrote: »

As I said 16s/17s and up is pretty good so I'd agree with you on that point.

Minis - I'd say are excellent - there's a great balance between fun, basic skills development and participation. Lots of blitzes and the atmosphere around them is great.

If there is a 'problem' it's from 12s to 15s - basically from when the kids start playing full pitch and 15-a-side to when the development squads starting looking at them. To my mind, the competitions here are a bit 'lost' - and it's an important age window because it's when a lot of lads (and ladies) start deciding which sport to focus on so rugby has to offer more than GAA and soccer. Also, kids at this age love competition, which is not to say they like losing, but the ones I coach certainly thrive when there is something on the line.

In GAA (and soccer to a lesser extent) - there's a clear line between club, representative honours and national or elite teams. I'd say the line in rugby is clear but it runs from schools to representative honours to the elite level, meaing players in clubs only may feel they're in a cul-de-sac - I know there's plenty of examples of players who do come through the clubs to higher levels, but that's not happeing in sufficient numbers.

u12-15 are key but what changes do you want to be made to these age groups?
I dont agree with you when you say club players may feel theure in a cul de sac. Yes tthe numbers coming through the clubs/youths system were not coming through in sufficient numbers but the processes that will develop players best from the youths system is now on place and more and more kids from the non traditional schools are going to "make it" over the next few years

ColmH81

bamboozle wrote: »

i'd go with the above

two AIL leagues with 10 in the higher one with top 4 playoff and 8 in the 2nd division with 2 up 2 down.

Clubs then be given full access to contracted players to further improve the quality.

The standard in the AIL has improved greatly in the last 3-4 seasons.
Lansdowne last weekend had O'Connell, Sexton & Moore in their front row, Matt Healy on the wing, Tadhg Beirne on bench & John Cooney at 9.

Fringe provincial players would greatly benefit from game time at a high quality AIL level.

Apart from that, get rid of the blazers

focus more on the U20's
dare i say bring in EOS as COnnacht coach to make the most out of the backs they've got coming through.

oh and replace DK who has been poor as national coach.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but aren't academy players limited in the amount of club games they're allowed play? I vaguely remember hearing that when Felix Jones was at Leinster.. He signed for Belvo from Seapoint, but was only allowed play 4 league games a season .. Or some thing like that..

Jawgap

ormond lad wrote: »

u12-15 are key but what changes do you want to be made to these age groups?
I dont agree with you when you say club players may feel theure in a cul de sac. Yes tthe numbers coming through the clubs/youths system were not coming through in sufficient numbers but the processes that will develop players best from the youths system is now on place and more and more kids from the non traditional schools are going to "make it" over the next few years

As a coach I'm on my second run - taking a team from U7 through to U19. I'm at the U16/17 stage at the moment - based on that, my experience is that kids / lads perceive that unless you are playing schools rugby at a decent level (FGC or JCT) then the higher levels of the game are closed off to you, regardless of ability. Again, rightly or wrongly that's the perception among the groups I've worked with.

Saying that, I'd like to think that ability will shine through, but if a 14 year old has a choice between GAA and rugby and perceives that by staying in rugby the best he can hope for is a place on the club's 1st XV he may opt to go for GAA where progression is more readily discernible.

Generally, players good at rugby tend to be good at other sports and there's plenty of competition for early teen players of talent. The problem can be trying to get him to hang on in rugby for another two seasons until the development squads can have a look at him.

So what to do? Well, for all my criticism of the schools system, it definitely works (even if it is wasteful on some levels) when you see the quality of player that comes through from a fairly narrow player base. I think elements of the system should be brought into the club youth set up, starting with an intensification and broadening of the competitions at U13 to U15 level.

And while we're at it - we could do away with one personal bugbear of mine - the difference in regulations between school and club rugby when it comes to lifting. If a player is old enough to do it in school he should be old enough to it in the clubs.

CIARAN_BOYLE

ColmH81 wrote: »

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but aren't academy players limited in the amount of club games they're allowed play? I vaguely remember hearing that when Felix Jones was at Leinster.. He signed for Belvo from Seapoint, but was only allowed play 4 league games a season .. Or some thing like that..

no strict limit but if an academy player is involved in Leinster/Ireland U20 and Leinster A games it really limits his club availability

Brendan97

Selective breeding?

twinytwo

we also need to protect our players better. we have all seen that one guy with freaky skills, or that unfit version of SOB that teams cant handle so they eventually "take him out".

This is unfortunately common place in all our sports

rrpc

Jawgap wrote: »

Saying that, I'd like to think that ability will shine through, but if a 14 year old has a choice between GAA and rugby and perceives that by staying in rugby the best he can hope for is a place on the club's 1st XV he may opt to go for GAA where progression is more readily discernible.

You don't appear to have much experience of GAA if you can say that. Progression in GAA countrywide is a jokeshop. You see it time and again where the selectors and coaches pick lads from their own clubs and haven't the first clue (even if they were bothered) about how to select the best players.

In GAA it's all about who you know, not what you know.