Seizing learners cars

blehh

Do/can they seize a learners car who is caught driving unaccompanied?

NIMAN

I really hope they start doing it, the lack of respect for the law on the roads of this country is shocking.

Hitchens

blehh wrote: »

Do/can they seize a learners car who is caught driving unaccompanied?

I think they can, but I have never heard of it happening.

biko

I think they can, but usually just a fine.

Berty

Should they seize them? No

Should the learners obey the law and not drive on their own? Yes

My reason is that the Insurance companies should refuse cover to anybody driving alone meaning the law will see this as driving without Insurance making the punishment higher and the fear imposed on the learner worse so they won't risk it.

biko

I think seizing is the way to go. Then release it for 1000 euro after a week.

kirving

That logic won't work. Whenever someone is at fault in an accident, they have broken some law or another if you think about it.

awec

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kirving

Just because people don't knowingly lose focus and have an accident doesn't make it any less of an offence.

awec

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Max Power

IMO they can't just all of a sudden seize learners cars after letting them off for so long. Instead they should set a date whereby anyone caught unaccompanied after their learner permit was issued will have their car seized.

awec

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kirving

I know there is, but to be fair to everyone in that case - anyone who has an accident should be proscecuted for breaking the law. Whether they knew they were doing it or not.

Stheno

I don't think it's legislated for, it's a 1000e fine and penalty points, where lack of tax is legislated for the car to be seized?

Might be wrong though.

Supergurrier

It's not the learners fault it's the systems fault.

One of two things can be done.

1. Talk about how terrible it is once every few months/climb on high horses/demand over the top measures to be taken and then forget about it.
2. Actually take a balanced approach to rein it in through fines/insurance company policy changes and information sharing/education.

My money is on the former

awec

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NIMAN

biko wrote: »

I think they can, but usually just a fine.

And this sort of sums up driving in Ireland, and why the standard of driving is so poor.

So its against the law for a learner driver to drive unaccompanied (bit obvious this) yet if they Gardai stop one, instead of enforcing the law, which they are paid to uphold, they let a potential hazard on the road, drive on regardless?

As someone who learned to drive in NI, the idea of me going out in a car on my own when I was an L driver would never cross my mind. Why? Because if I was caught I wouldn't be driving for a few years once the Judge got me!

awec

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phog

The sooner they start seizing the cars the better, the law is being flouted. Worse still, those that are ignoring the law probably never bothered with driving lessons either so there's less likelihood that they are anywhere near being competent.

awec

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Supergurrier

awec wrote: »

Ah the typical irish mentality, it's always someone elses fault. :mad:

If you get into a car without a valid license to drive unaccompanied it is your fault. Nobody elses. Yours.

If you are hit with a heavy fine after you knowingly broke the law then tough. You probably won't do it again.

But you won't be caught (take down your "L" plates and you become superinvisable and instead of enforcing these laws every day learners get a warning afew days in advance as to the clampdown )and when you are you get sent on your merry way with a warning and nothing more.

So, you were saying not the systems fault :pac:

Nice PR exercise all the same, would make a feckin great Joe Duffy show

AugustusMinimus

Kevin Irving wrote: »

That logic won't work. Whenever someone is at fault in an accident, they have broken some law or another if you think about it.

Absolute nonsense.

There are many different reasons why accident happen such as a mechanical problem with the car and various external factors which have nothing to do with the driver of the vehicle.

kirving

awec wrote: »

You are comparing chalk and cheese.

Either way, not all road traffic accidents are a result of breaches of road laws. You can be done if you were clearly driving dangerously to cause an accident.

Any exmaples of where someone hasn't broken a law after having an accident(and being at fault)?

What I'm saying is you can't pick and choose who to proscecute based on whether you think they knew what they were doing.

The law should treat everyone equally, but we all know that people think a young lad who crashes his car in the snow will have been "driving carelessly", while an old lady who does the same will have been "caught out by the conditions".

awec

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CianRyan

Are they less of a danger because some one's sitting beside them?
If not, I don't see the point of the law.

Supergurrier

awec wrote: »

Apologies, I thought you were going in to one of the typical "it's the systems fault for making them take so many lessons" type arguments.

Or a "it's the systems fault cause insurance is so expensive".

I misunderstood. In this case yes, it's time the Gardaí grew a set and threw the book at anyone caught.

I agree but there should be afew steps between no consequences and seizing cars and that would be my point.

Irish people have an awful habit of jumping from one extreme to the next, can't we just sit down and work out a simple system that is fair to everyone and push it through.

kirving

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Absolute nonsense.

There are many different reasons why accident happen such as a mechanical problem with the car and various external factors which have nothing to do with the driver of the vehicle.

Driving vehicle before remedying dangerous defect - 3 Points

Driving dangerously defective vehicle - 5 points.

Example:
Brakes don't fail, the haven't been maintained/replaced properly if they do.

awec

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Bruthal

awec wrote: »

These people have not demonstrated that they are capable of driving a motor vehicle on a public road. Until they do so they are a danger to other drivers

Judging by many incidents on our roads, neither have test-passed drivers.

awec

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kirving

awec wrote: »

You can't treat people equally when the situation is different. :pac:

If I go out tonight and fall against my neighbours car and accidentally break his window, I will of course be treated differently than if I went out and put a brick through it on purpose.

Or if I had a string of previous motoring offences to my name, I'm not going to be treated the same as someone with a clean record and nor should I be.

The law is designed to treat people equally if they commit the same crime and have the exact same background.

Knowingly driving unaccompanied, or knowingly driving uninsured is a world apart from rear ending the guy in front in gridlock.

Sorry, I think we're getting away from my point. What I mean to say is that people have to be insured even why they have broken a law - because we can't tell (in general) if someone meant to break the law.

If you were hit by a lone learner driver, I'm telling you that you'd want them to be insured.

awec

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akura

It's a stupid rule, what if you live in the middle of nowhere with no public transport and you are trying to get to work, you can't have a fully licensed driver with you at all times

mloc123

No excuse these days, back when I sat my test the waiting list was 18 months. Now you should be able to get a date within 2-3 months?

awec

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kirving

That's till complet BS. You should be able to walk in whenever you wan't and do the test. Don't be giving anyone any excuses like a long waiting list.

Supergurrier

awec wrote: »

Why should they get off lightly?

Because seizing someones car is extreme when they can be fined/re-educated/have their insurance voided ? :pac:

There are 100,000+ provisional license holders atm, where are we going to store these cars ?

If it cost tens of thousands to store afew voting machines i can see where this is headed financially

Also the Irish Govermnets are terrified of any type of legal action that could be taken against them (even though none could be taken) and would never seize that many cars or even close.

zenno

awec wrote: »

Ah the typical irish mentality, it's always someone elses fault. :mad:

If you get into a car without a valid license to drive unaccompanied it is your fault. Nobody elses. Yours.

If you are hit with a heavy fine after you knowingly broke the law then tough. You probably won't do it again.

It's a stupid law. Remember up to not long ago all you needed was a provisional licence and off you went with no nanny laws rubbed in demanding you have a fully licensed driver with you, And how the hell do you think people learned to drive back then ? they drove and learned to drive just like the inventor of the car...he had to teach himself to drive and control it but now all these dumb nanny laws coming in just to make more money off the basic learner driver as in fines.

It's the law now ok fair enough but it's a garbage law. How did YOU learn to drive back in the day ? or do you drive ? and if so did you even do a theory test on rules of the road ? if it was a good few years ago then you wouldn't have so you would probably fail the test now if you had to do it just like many previous licensed drivers out there. we all have to learn sometime without having to pay hundreds of Euro to do so. Garbage law imo.

Driving four years no penalty points no claims never had a problem. €85 to do a driving test lol robbery.

Hitchens

You rarely hear of a learner driver being involved in an accident, actually.

blehh

awec wrote: »

Why not? Driving unaccompanied is illegal. Those who do it are fully aware of that fact.

They SHOULD just start seizing cars.

If someone who just planned to drive around on their learner permit unaccompanied is inconvenienced by the Gardaí upholding the law then who cares?

They should start seizing cars for speeding so, being illegal and all...

Berty

zenno wrote: »

And how the hell do you think people learned to drive back then ?

Dangerously.

Learning to understand the car in a car park on industrial estate is one thing. Taking the car on the road without an experienced driver is and WAS dangerous. The new laws are for the benefit of ALL road users.

awec

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awec

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ABajaninCork

akura wrote: »

It's a stupid rule, what if you live in the middle of nowhere with no public transport and you are trying to get to work, you can't have a fully licensed driver with you at all times

Well, there's a simple answer to that, isn't there? Learn to drive, pass your test, then you won't have that problem - will you? Simple.

I'm sick and tired of the same crap being trotted out. Only in Ireland, have I heard such asinine nonsense.

Gards SHOULD seize and CRUSH the bloody cars. It might concentrate some minds then.

Blazer

awec wrote: »

Lowest accident rate of any EU capital city.

If we let all learners drive without being accompanied do you think the rate of accidents would stay the same?

Do you think it's fair on all those learners that do pass their test before driving on their own that there are people that just don't bother their arse and so publicly flout the law?

This actually drives me nuts. People willingly break the law and people come on trying to excuse it. Funnily enough, if anyone here was hit by a driver without a valid license, or hit by an uninsured driver I doubt the excuses and "ah they're grand sure" would be flowing then.

Laws exist for a reason. They should be upheld. People who flout them should not be excused or pandered to.

Do you speed? Or litter? etc...everyone breaks a law sometime, someplace.
Yes the driving test etc is a joke but what should be done is set up a strict theory/driving test over a period of 2 years much like the continent.
However set the start time for 3 years time so that everyone is aware of it and people get ample warning.
Of course what we could do is have everyone in the country retested but that would be a different story of course and I'm sure all passed drivers would disagree and scream blue murder. Laws are grand as long as they don't directly affect you?
I have a full license btw.

awec

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ABajaninCork

zenno wrote: »

It's a stupid law. Remember up to not long ago all you needed was a provisional licence and off you went with no nanny laws rubbed in demanding you have a fully licensed driver with you, And how the hell do you think people learned to drive back then ? they drove and learned to drive just like the inventor of the car...he had to teach himself to drive and control it but now all these dumb nanny laws coming in just to make more money off the basic learner driver as in fines.

It's the law now ok fair enough but it's a garbage law. How did YOU learn to drive back in the day ? or do you drive ? and if so did you even do a theory test on rules of the road ? if it was a good few years ago then you wouldn't have so you would probably fail the test now if you had to do it just like many previous licensed drivers out there. we all have to learn sometime without having to pay hundreds of Euro to do so. Garbage law imo.

Driving four years no penalty points no claims never had a problem. €85 to do a driving test lol robbery.

They're out tonight, aren't they?? Another one who thinks driving is a right that doesn't have to be paid for. What is so hard about obeying the law FFS?

For the record. I learnt to drive in London obeying the LAW!!! What makes you so different??

kirving

What are the accident rates among learner drivers driving alone, vs. those with a qualified driver beside them?

Supergurrier

Awec you seem to ignore the fact that what you seem to think is the right thing just is not possible in the real world.

Knee jerk reactions have never been successful in fixing problems that have been let develop into a culture, re-education is whats needed along with costly but not excessive fines and/or insurance industry changes.

But that's not exactly in line with a crusade, they never work, just go digging in Jeruselem for proof of how well that went

awec

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Stheno

Even before the learner permits came in drivers on any provisional apart from the second had to be accompanied.