AXA cancelled my policy over LPG

Stinicker

I recently converted my car to LPG with VV-Tech, lpg.ie in Kilcullen and they did a great job and I have been saving away a nice share of money on the fuel costs.

I rang Axa this week to notify them of the conversion for to have it added to the policy and they cancelled my insurance instead. Running a car on LPG makes no difference to engine performance and the car is a dual fuel car which still runs on Petrol at the drivers discretion.

The insurance from May 2012 to May 2013 was €370 through a broker with Axa and now they have cancelled it despite that the car is now actually safer as it runs on a safer fuel with less explosion risk.

My broker is now trying to rob me blind wanting to change me to a new policy with Aviva costing €650 per year, the car is worth less than that.

I wonder what are my options for they cancelling over this "Modification" they are treating this as a Modification even though it makes no difference to the cars performance etc.

CiniO

It's a pure disgrace...

PS - But I think you exaggerated the fact that car is safer now.

MetzgerMeister

Did you ask your insurance company about it before you did the conversion or did you read the particulars of your policy beforehand? They obviously had a reason to cancel the policy and I'm sure that if you read the details of it, you'll find it in there somewhere.

Normally you would expect an insurance company to just ask for a few more quid but I've never heard nor seen a policy being cancelled like that. Also, I doubt the car is "safer" as you claim as you now have 2 separate fuels and fuel tanks to think about compared to one. The risk when it comes to this and leaks etc. is in effect, doubled.

Kenny Logins

Why does this country appear to be so firmly opposed to LPG? Mad..

Stinicker

I did not check with my insurance before converting to LPG, LPG is commonplace in the UK and everything I had read about insurance over there was you just inform the insurance company and they add it to your policy at no extra charge.

AXA's excuse is that their underwriters refuse to cover it.

Kenny Logins

Some UK brokers even offer a discount for LPG.

MetzgerMeister

Stinicker wrote: »

I did not check with my insurance before converting to LPG, LPG is commonplace in the UK and everything I had read about insurance over there was you just inform the insurance company and they add it to your policy at no extra charge.

AXA's excuse is that their underwriters refuse to cover it.

To be honest, and I mean no disrespect by this but I think it was a bit foolish of you to go by what happens in the UK instead of researching the way it works here, in the country in which you live and are driving the car.

Matt Simis

Chartis and First Ireland (broker) were very nice about my LPG conversion as long as it was professionally installed (which it was).

CiniO

MetzgerMeister wrote: »

To be honest, and I mean no disrespect by this but I think it was a bit foolish of you to go by what happens in the UK instead of researching the way it works here, in the country in which you live and are driving the car.

I bet someone who never lived in Ireland before would ever think that installing LPG could have any implications on insurance, neither about the fact that you have to inform your insurance company that you converted your car to use LPG.

2 fuel tanks instead of one, I don't know anything about lpg but presume its tank is pressurized?

You would imagine it would cost more to insure.

CiniO

Carlos Big Underpass wrote: »

2 fuel tanks instead of one, I don't know anything about lpg but presume its tank is pressurized?

You would imagine it would cost more to insure.

Yes - tank is pressurized, but it would have to be really severe accident to make this tank unseal or explode.

bazz26

CiniO wrote: »

I bet someone who never lived in Ireland before would ever think that installing LPG could have any implications on insurance, neither about the fact that you have to inform your insurance company that you converted your car to use LPG.

That is more reason to research it before hand, don't assume because it is ok at home that it will be the same in another country. LPG converted cars are not very common here or are the companies that do it so common sense would dictate that there is more to it given the savings that can be made on fuel. Insurance cover is obviously one of the reason why.

I just don't see a way out for the OP unless he pays the higher premium.

CiniO

bazz26 wrote: »

That is more reason to research it before hand, don't assume because it is ok at home that it will be the same in another country.

Problem with assuming something and doing research, is that before you do any research, you must have at least a tiny bit of doubt that something works different than you thought.
Otherwise nothing is going to ignite the idea of doing any research.

djimi

CiniO wrote: »

I bet someone who never lived in Ireland before would ever think that installing LPG could have any implications on insurance, neither about the fact that you have to inform your insurance company that you converted your car to use LPG.

You never assume anything when it comes to insurance companies. Its gotten to the stage where Id nearly run it by them if I wanted to change the radio, let alone a modification as big as converting to LPG. Its a pretty big modification to be fair; I dont know why somoene wouldnt think that the insurance would be interested to know about it?

CiniO

djimi wrote: »

You never assume anything when it comes to insurance companies. Its gotten to the stage where Id nearly run it by them if I wanted to change the radio, let alone a modification as big as converting to LPG. Its a pretty big modification to be fair; I dont know why somoene wouldnt think that the insurance would be interested to know about it?

I know it now.
I didn't know it when I moved to Ireland.

Beforehand, I would never think that insurance company might be interested in any modifications at all.

djimi

I dont know how it works anywhere else, but to me its just plain common sense to assume that an insurance company will want to know about anything that changes the particulars/and or the risk of a certain car. In the case of the OP the car they are now driving is not the car that they originally insured.

CiniO

djimi wrote: »

I dont know how it works anywhere else, but to me its just plain common sense to assume that an insurance company will want to know about anything that changes the particulars/and or the risk of a certain car. In the case of the OP the car they are now driving is not the car that they originally insured.

Believe me it's not your common sence.
It's your experience and knowledge how insurance system here works that tell you this.

MetzgerMeister

When it comes to making a claim, a lot of insurance companies will and do find any way not to pay out. If changing from runflats to normal tyres is considered a modification according to insurance companies (and yes, it is) then I would certainly think that an LPG tank would be along with being a huge get-out clause for the insurance company if it ever came to the OP making a claim.

Stinicker

MetzgerMeister wrote: »

When it comes to making a claim, a lot of insurance companies will and do find any way not to pay out. If changing from runflats to normal tyres is considered a modification according to insurance companies (and yes, it is) then I would certainly think that an LPG tank would be along with being a huge get-out clause for the insurance company if it ever came to the OP making a claim.

Which was why I informed them, I was expecting something more along the lines of them asking to see the paperwork supplied by VV-Tech or at the worst case some sort of independent engineers assessment. I was not expecting them to actually cancel the policy because it is running on LPG. I was with Quinn-Driect now Liberty Insurance since 2006 but switched over to AXA through a broker because they were cheaper this year as Liberty hiked their prices. Liberty does cover LPG but does it on a case by case basis as I was speaking to them today.

I was hesitant to switch to Axa this year as they are notorious scumbags and they refused point blank to pay out a travel insurance claim I tried to make last year off a travel insurance policy I had with them.

Never again till my dying day would I have anything to do with Axa after this, even if they gave me insurance for 99c I'd tell them where to shove it.

MetzgerMeister

They only insure LPG on a case by case basis? Does that depend on whether or not the installation was done properly?

I do feel for you but you really should have checked beforehand whether or not your current insurers would cover LPG and if not, which ones would. As you may know, people are asking their insurers how a remap would affect their policy so it's common sense to check first, then go ahead with it.

As Matt Simis said, speak to First Ireland. I've been with them for years and every year I've been very happy with my renewal quotes (although that didn't stop me trying to get more off :P )

I hope you get sorted and get sorted soon!

Stinicker

MetzgerMeister wrote: »

They only insure LPG on a case by case basis? Does that depend on whether or not the installation was done properly?

I do feel for you but you really should have checked beforehand whether or not your current insurers would cover LPG and if not, which ones would. As you may know, people are asking their insurers how a remap would affect their policy so it's common sense to check first, then go ahead with it.

As Matt Simis said, speak to First Ireland. I've been with them for years and every year I've been very happy with my renewal quotes (although that didn't stop me trying to get more off :P )

I hope you get sorted and get sorted soon!

Well, I told Liberty about how Axa was cancelling my own policy and Liberty said their own underwriters would have to make the final decision also, but that they generally do cover LPG but because of my circumstances they'd be approaching it differently.

Bobo78

In Ireland it's more like your insurance company owns your car and not you.
On the continent it's very normal thing to have car converted to LPG and no one makes a big deal out of it like insurance companies do in Ireland. :rolleyes:
But I guess they will go to great length just to be able to squeeze more money out of you or to make an excuse not to pay out for a claim if they can.

Stinicker

Matt Simis wrote: »

Chartis and First Ireland (broker) were very nice about my LPG conversion as long as it was professionally installed (which it was).

Someone buy this man a pint please. Fair play to you and thanks very much for this post. I contacted First Ireland today and have arranged insurance with them for the year. The price quoted was very good and they are a great company to deal with. Basically it doesn't put me anything extra out of pocket it just means I am renewing my insurance earlier because of AXA cancelling on me, and the refund for the remaining months from AXA will balance this out.

AXA created a fair mess but I have a happy ending, sad news is I may have to cancel Christmas as my Insurance and Motor Tax are both due now this month when normally I space them 6 months apart to lessen the pain. I might tax the car for 6 months instead to spread the load rather than max-out the credit card.

Thanks again Matt, your a lifesaver.

Kenny Logins

Yeah, have to say having dealt with FI recently for classic insurance I found them to be very helpful and efficient.

bigroad

Volvo was producing the ,s60 and s80 with their own lpg duel fuel system .Wouldnt it be interesting to get a quote on that particular model.I think they were a 2400cc engine.For instance do axa not accept after market conversions.I will try and get a quote and let yea know.

LPGParkLane

Hi:)
AXA might have cancelled insurance policy just to be on a safe side:) currently in Republic you only need to be a certified gas installer
to install domestic and commercial (read fixed)gas/LPG appliances or equipment. But not car systems )
Responsible installers will have done training courses by either manufacturer or distributor of LPG kits and can prove that ,as well as being able to provide relevant paperwork for the kits (CE certs ,EU type approval etc).
An insurance company shouldn't be able to refuse insurance cover on a ground of modifications ,as installs of LPG are covered by NCT procedures .Info http://www.ncts.ie/pdf/NCT%20Manual%20Revise%20May%202012.pdf. If car got an nct cert it is road legal meaning there is no illegal /dangerous/unsafe etc mods to it. just for nice example

---

car with NOs (pressurized gas canister i.e "go-go gas") system will fail an NCT even if there no other faults. NOs canister is regarded as an " Unsuitable fuel tank." Quote :" If a vehicle is presented with a Nitrous Oxide (NO2) injection system fitted, it should be failed under Reason For Failure (4) above." Rather confusing as Nitrox(NOS) is not a fuel ,merely being a strong oxidising agent added to intake air to raise oxygen level in air intake .Power boost comes as extra O2 in air intake allows for extra fuel to be injected resulting in power increase(torque and BHP).

Stinicker

LPGParkLane wrote: »

Hi:)
AXA might have cancelled insurance policy just to be on a safe side:) currently in Republic you only need to be a certified gas installer
to install domestic and commercial (read fixed)gas/LPG appliances or equipment. But not car systems )
Responsible installers will have done training courses by either manufacturer or distributor of LPG kits and can prove that ,as well as being able to provide relevant paperwork for the kits (CE certs ,EU type approval etc).
An insurance company shouldn't be able to refuse insurance cover on a ground of modifications ,as installs of LPG are covered by NCT procedures .Info http://www.ncts.ie/pdf/NCT%20Manual%20Revise%20May%202012.pdf. If car got an nct cert it is road legal meaning there is no illegal /dangerous/unsafe etc mods to it. just for nice example

---

car with NOs (pressurized gas canister i.e "go-go gas") system will fail an NCT even if there no other faults. NOs canister is regarded as an " Unsuitable fuel tank." Quote :" If a vehicle is presented with a Nitrous Oxide (NO2) injection system fitted, it should be failed under Reason For Failure (4) above." Rather confusing as Nitrox(NOS) is not a fuel ,merely being a strong oxidising agent added to intake air to raise oxygen level in air intake .Power boost comes as extra O2 in air intake allows for extra fuel to be injected resulting in power increase(torque and BHP).

I think you are getting LPG confused with Nitrus Oxide which I know very little about other than seeing it in the Fast & Furious films. My own install was done by VV-Tech Lpg in Kildare and they provided me with the relevant paperwork and I could understand if I had bought a kit off eBay and installed it myself but I got it done professionally by this company who are also members of the ILPGA (Irish Liquid Petroleum Gas Association) so in terms it getting professional people to do it properly I had that base very much covered.

It was less about the "Modification" and more about the broker and AXA trying to rip me off using LPG as an excuse.

LPGParkLane

No,defo not confused,in previous post i cited NOx as an example of a mod which will result in Nct fail in any case. simple reason is that the NOx system gas bottle( deemed to be fuel tank,pressurized) is fitted usually openly placed inside passenger compartment ,within easy reach of a driver(need to open NOS Bottle valve by hand) and as such is contrary to Nct requirement on following:
4 Unsuitable fuel tank.
5 LPG/CNG tank fitted inside vehicle without being
sub- compartmented or without having valves piped to the outside.
10 Possibility of fuel lines being crushed, chafed, ruptured or subject to excessive vibration.

And as for Lpg ,I drive 02 kia Carens 1.8 on Lpg with 55 ltr tank and Stag 300-4 (4th Gen sequential system) , and DIESEL A170 merc with ( Supplementary ) LPG fitted:)

coylemj

Axa policy document....

4 Changes to your policy

You must tell us immediately about any:

• change of car or any other vehicle you buy or take ownership of;
• convictions, prosecutions or any penalty points which apply to you or any other driver of your car;
• change in the driver’s health, address or job;
• modifications or alterations to your vehicle including, but not limited to, air induction kits and filters, lower suspension, change to the exhaust, engine maintenance computers or adding of body parts whether these changes were present when you purchased the car or not;
• change of address;
• change in use or in the main user; or
• other important change.

We may charge an additional premium for these changes and we have the right to consent or decline these changes.

Obviously they decide what constitutes an 'other important change'.

I can't understand what Axa mean by claiming that their 'underwriters' won't cover LPG, isn't Axa an insurance company and don't they cover the risk? Otherwise they are admitting that they are nothing more than a glorified insurance broker.

MugMugs

MetzgerMeister wrote: »

When it comes to making a claim, a lot of insurance companies will and do find any way not to pay out. If changing from runflats to normal tyres is considered a modification according to insurance companies (and yes, it is) then I would certainly think that an LPG tank would be along with being a huge get-out clause for the insurance company if it ever came to the OP making a claim.

Not really..... The question would be asked, "was the fuel type relevant to the accident circumstances and or a cause of the same...." before a decline could be successfully run.

LPGParkLane

Yep ..sad reality ( `cos we can means we will( ripp u off) )
however it is possible to argue with them on following points:
modifications or alterations to your vehicle including, but not limited to, air induction kits and filters, change to the exhaust, engine maintenance computers whether these changes were present when you purchased the car or not;(removed N/A parts )

LPG kits utilize existing manufacturers air intake and exhaust parts , and run in parallel(not affecting functionality of) with cars engine management computer using their own computer and fueling system parts.In practice this allows for car to be run on petrol only,Lpg only, or Both in sequence(petrol start followed by gas run or LPG 80%and petrol 20% at the same time,latter used on some Vw group TSI/TFSI engines). As such ,the driver is the one able to run a car in the way he/she chooses including not using LPG at all:) .LPG is supplementary ,standalone ,parallel system and not a modification to factory fitted system. As for power output i `ll cite a Volvo S40 Bi-fuel (factory fitted) , It has 2 BHP lower output from 1.8 Liter engine when powered by LPG so no performance mod here:).Tanks for LPG are manufactured to strict EU/TUV/EN etc standards and not an additional risk if properly fitted (checked by NCT) and as to them taking place of a spare wheel --- there cars on sale in Ireland with no spare wheel at all(hermetic +small air pump).

As for other important change ---- well read above:(

MetzgerMeister

Alright Mugs!! sheesh, Once would have been enough :P

Senna

123.ie wouldn't insure my car without an engineers report because it had "non-standard" alloys, so it doesn't surprise me that an LPG conversion would result in a cancelled policy.

It seems like the underwriters set a list of requirements and the insurance companies are frighten senseless of anything that wasn't on the car leaving the factory.

coylemj

These days you're dealing with call agents sitting in front of computer screens which dictate the response to any question and the golden rule is: if in doubt, the answer is 'no'.

Doheny2000

I asked Aon(AVIVA policy) my insurance company for a quote for LPG Conversion cover. The fella on the phone didn't know what I was on about, went away for 10 mins and came back to say AVIVA don't cover LPG conversions but yet the OP seemed to have the option of cover with a LPG conversion with AVIVA??
Will have to contact AVIVA myself tomorrow!

easyja

Stinicker wrote: »

I recently converted my car to LPG with VV-Tech, lpg.ie in Kilcullen and they did a great job and I have been saving away a nice share of money on the fuel costs.

I rang Axa this week to notify them of the conversion for to have it added to the policy and they cancelled my insurance instead. Running a car on LPG makes no difference to engine performance and the car is a dual fuel car which still runs on Petrol at the drivers discretion.

The insurance from May 2012 to May 2013 was €370 through a broker with Axa and now they have cancelled it despite that the car is now actually safer as it runs on a safer fuel with less explosion risk.

My broker is now trying to rob me blind wanting to change me to a new policy with Aviva costing €650 per year, the car is worth less than that.

I wonder what are my options for they cancelling over this "Modification" they are treating this as a Modification even though it makes no difference to the cars performance etc.

My car was converted to autogas 2 weeks ago.
I didn't have any problem with AXA. They needed Certification only. When I took my car from LPGAIN they gave me certification. Really any problems.

Stinicker

easyja wrote: »

My car was converted to autogas 2 weeks ago.
I didn't have any problem with AXA. They needed Certification only. When I took my car from LPGAIN they gave me certification. Really any problems.

Interesting perhaps Axa had put some special T&C's on the insurance which was sold to me by my (former) broker.

easyja

Stinicker wrote: »

Interesting perhaps Axa had put some special T&C's on the insurance which was sold to me by my (former) broker.

my wife's car insured with 123.ie - same conversion centre gave us certification - no problems at all. For PSV vehicles only, it may cause problems

chillywilly

Stinicker wrote: »

My broker is now trying to rob me blind wanting to change me to a new policy with Aviva costing €650 per year, the car is worth less than that.

One point on the above. I'm a broker. I can tell you nearly for sure that your broker is not trying to rob you. He WANTS to sell you the best policy because it is in his best interest (commission, repeat business, happy customer etc). He has no control over the underwriters decision so i would guess his hands are tied. In these irregular situations, on the system I use in work, Aviva and Axa are usually the only companies that will quote for modifications to a car. Since Axa cancelled your policy it is possible that Aviva was the only company actually quoting on his system.

The insurance premium being more than than what the car is worth is irrelevant, if you crash in to someones brand new Merc, it is going to cost them a lot of money to pay out. Even worse, if you knock someone over it could go over the million mark.

corkgsxr

CiniO wrote: »

Yes - tank is pressurized, but it would have to be really severe accident to make this tank unseal or explode.

dont like the idea that its making it safer.

lpg tanks are made heavyer and stronger because lpg is highly explosive and if ruptured its no longer pressurized so turns from liquid to a gas very fast and any source of ingition and a huge explosion.

less likely to rupture than petrol but if it does youv got a hell of a bang

easyja

corkgsxr wrote: »

dont like the idea that its making it safer.

lpg tanks are made heavyer and stronger because lpg is highly explosive and if ruptured its no longer pressurized so turns from liquid to a gas very fast and any source of ingition and a huge explosion.

less likely to rupture than petrol but if it does youv got a hell of a bang

before Autogas tank explodes, the impact force of trucks for example will kill you making marmalade from yourself

corkgsxr

easyja wrote: »

before Autogas tank explodes, the impact force of trucks for example will kill you making marmalade from yourself

Ah but life can throw a spanner in the works, what about a piercing force rather than crushing

easyja

corkgsxr wrote: »

Ah but life can throw a spanner in the works, what about a piercing force rather than crushing

theoretically machine does not fly, but it flies. In practice, the petrol tanks exploded a thousand times, but about LPG tanks somehow, little is known. Could millions of people who use this all over the world conspired in silence??.

easyja

easyja wrote: »

my wife's car insured with 123.ie - same conversion centre gave us certification - no problems at all. For PSV vehicles only, it may cause problems

I spoke today to the person who converted my cars. He said €100 is the additional cost of PSV vehicle for the Engineers Certificate, so there is no problem as well. sorry for previous text

sorel

easyja wrote: »

I spoke today to the person who converted my cars. He said €100 is the additional cost of PSV vehicle for the Engineers Certificate, so there is no problem as well. sorry for previous text

if no secret-who converted your car?.

easyja

sorel wrote: »

if no secret-who converted your car?.

Tallaght centre

sorel

I can't believe. Lpgain in Tallaght give out 300 liters autogas for everyone. - a shock to me!!!

Kenny Logins

sorel wrote: »

I can't believe. Lpgain in Tallaght give out 300 liters autogas for everyone. - a shock to me!!!

What?

Big Nasty

Schilltastic!

sorel

LPGAIN sells autogas...

ninty9er

Did the OP speak directly to AXA or the broker. I have daily dealings with all the major insurance companies at work, and I find AXA the most helpful and best trained.