Advice please - my rental is on daft.ie as a ready to walk into

Doom

We are renting the same house for 3.5yrs, just seen it on daft.ie for sale as a "ready to live in" house, I've no current contract, I don't think I need one as I'm here so long...i.e.section xxxxx tenancy or something like that...... I'm ****ting it, can they sale it while I'm here? Any advice please

ABajaninCork

The landlord HAS to tell you and give the appropriate notice if they're selling the house. As you've been there 3.5 years, he has to give you at least 84 days notice, as you've got Part 4 tenancy rights. Is the house being re-possessed or has the landlord gone bust? Notice periods are detailed in this link

Think you'd better get hold of the landlord in a hurry and find out what the story is!

Hope it works out for you.

athtrasna

If you don't have a current one then you're covered under Part IV Tenancy BUT Part IV tenancies are cyclical and re-start every 4 years which means your security is about to vanish in 6 months. http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/types_of_tenancy.html

Talk to Threshold if you need confirmation but it sounds like the person you really need to talk to is your landlord.

JustAThought

Don't panic!
They.can't."show" it without your.cooperation so they need.to.buy out your "lease" ( agree with above 6. Months) or keep you happy.
May be true it just some.evil.property agent action.g.the.chancer

Doom

Landlord is with Ptrb, will this help my case? The last rental contract ceased in August this year, does my Part IV start from then or 3.5yrs ago? Thanks for replies so far.

ABajaninCork

It starts from 6 months into your tenancy.

Doom

ABajaninCork wrote: »

It starts from 6 months into your tenancy.

So 3.5 yrs -6 months= 3yrs, so I have a year till the new 4 yearly, part IV tenancy starts again....would that be right?

xper

Doom wrote: »

So 3.5 yrs -6 months= 3yrs, so I have a year till the new 4 yearly, part IV tenancy starts again....would that be right?

No, your Part 4 Tenancy started its 4 year cycle on the day you moved in. During the first six months of each cycle the landlord can give you notice to vacate without reason but during the other 3.5 years of the cycle, there is a restricted list of scenarios under which you can be instructed to leave. And the period of notice required increases greatly as time passes (and this does not reset as a new cycle begins again). If you happen to have a fixed term lease, this gives you additional security as it cannot be terminated early as long as you keep paying rent.

OK, so in your situation, you say you don't have a fixed term lease and you are 3.5 years into your first Part 4 Tenancy cycle. This means the landlord does have the right to give you notice to terminate the tenancy as 'selling the property' is one of the scenarios in which the landlord is allowed do so under a Part 4 Tenancy. However, such notice must be of adequate length (12 weeks in your case), given in writing (not email) and phrased correctly in order to be enforceable. He cannot (legally) come in and chuck you out, he cannot change the locks while your out, he cannot arrange viewings without your consent.

Now, if your home has been advertised for sale, it would appear that the owner may be acting improperly toward you either out of ignorance of the regulations or malice. Is there an estate agent involved (who would have visited the place to do an evaluation)? Is there recent internal photos of the place, implying the landlord gained acces without your knowledge? If the answer to either of those is 'yes' then the landlord may be deliberately working away behind your back but I would think its more likely that he just misguidedly think he can just go ahead and sell and wander up to the door some day and give you a months notice. Either way, you need to talk to him as soon as possible and if he is selling the place then the likelihood is that he will eventually get his ducks in a row and you will have to vacate. But you could take advantage of the situation and persuade him to compensate you financially for making way earlier than is required of you.

By the way, a tenant can take their case to the PTRB whether or not the landlord has registered the tenancy with them. Not registering the tenancy makes the landlord liable for a fine but it does not impact your rights one way or the other.

The_Conductor

Its entirely possible that the landlord is simply 'testing the waters' to see what sentiment is like. As per above- he can give you 12 weeks notice to vacate, if he is planning on selling the property. To be honest with you- its time to sit down and have a little chat with him or her and to try to figure whats happening here. I wouldn't necessarily equate the house being on DAFT as a sale being imminent by any means (I'm well aware of property having been on the market for literally years).

Doom

smccarrick wrote: »

Its entirely possible that the landlord is simply 'testing the waters' to see what sentiment is like. As per above- he can give you 12 weeks notice to vacate, if he is planning on selling the property. To be honest with you- its time to sit down and have a little chat with him or her and to try to figure whats happening here. I wouldn't necessarily equate the house being on DAFT as a sale being imminent by any means (I'm well aware of property having been on the market for literally years).

It only went up on Friday, hopefully its only the landlord testing the water....I sent a query to the estate agent about the sale under a different name.

murphaph

A lot of landlords are getting fed up with the whole thing what with new taxes all being levied on the owner, not the occupier. Landlord is probably just seeing what he'd get if he sold up. He may not be happy with it so I wouldn't stress just yet, but I would ask him about it. it is your current home after all.

Doom

OK more advice needed please, an update of the situation;

The landlord has contacted us and said his is testing the water, and would like to show the property. He has not formally given us notice of selling the house. What rights do I have here? Am I obliged to allow him viewings of the house? Can he put a sign up outside the house?

I heard somewhere that he can only do this when the last month of notice is in force i.e. sign up and we have to allow viewing to made.

It seems to me he wants it both ways, if he cannot sale, he still wants us as tenants.... but this is really inconvenient for us, as we don't want the kids worrying. Plus the extra work to tidy away all private stuff.
Thanks

snubbleste

One of the exceptions to breaking a tenancy is the landlord wanting to sell the house, no?

nibtrix

snubbleste wrote: »

One of the exceptions to breaking a tenancy is the landlord wanting to sell the house, no?

Yes, in a part four tenancy such as this the landlord can give you notice if he wants to sell the house.

However, you are not obliged to allow viewings. It's your home until the end of the notice period (12 weeks in this case).

If I were you I would negotiate compensation for allowing viewings, such as a reduction in rent.

djimi

snubbleste wrote: »

One of the exceptions to breaking a tenancy is the landlord wanting to sell the house, no?

Its one of the reasons that a landlord can break a lease as set out in the part 4 tenancy, but they still must adhere to the legal notice period.

OP if I were you I would be accomodation towards viewing (I think you must be but Im not 100% sure about this), but let it be on your schedule, say only on a Tuesday and Thursday between 7-8.30 or something, and I would also be asking for a reduction in the rent to reflect the inconvenience caused.

To be honest, the law states that you are entitled to quiet enjoyment of the property, so if it were me I would not tolerate more than one viewing a fortnight, unless the landlord is willing to make it very much worth my while.

Doom

I have given them an option to have a hour on Friday 1-2, but they text back asking for a Saturday, to be honest we will be putting up Christmas decorations etc, and it will be as far as I'm concerned "a very inappropriate time of year" to be asking for us to vacate to allow viewings, we have young children and don't want them to worry about maybe having to move out and find a new place to live.

djimi

Just so youre clear; you are in no way obliged to vacate the property. If I was me I would be standing in full view of both the landlord and the stranger that they are bringing into my home at all times. If they ask you to leave tell them to piss off out of your home.

Friday 1-2 is not a very fair time to offer for viewings in fairness. If you are going to cooperate you would need to make it a time that would actually suit people to come to the house, so a midweek evening I guess would be best.

xper

I would concur with djimi, there is no way in hell that I would totally vacate my home while a bunch of strangers were traipsing around it. Bear in mind that if you are (reasonably) allowing only limited viewing times and the property is attractive in terms or price and location, the landlord or estate agent is likely to want to invite multiple viewers or even have an open viewing. In this scenario, I would insist on being there and position myself at the entrance and keep an eye on who is coming and going and their pockets. Obviously you put anything small, portable and valuable well out of reach beforehand. If you have young kids, it may well be an idea to get them out of the way for the duration as well as they may find the parade of curious strangers upsetting.

Doom

djimi wrote: »

Just so youre clear; you are in no way obliged to vacate the property. If I was me I would be standing in full view of both the landlord and the stranger that they are bringing into my home at all times. If they ask you to leave tell them to piss off out of your home.

Friday 1-2 is not a very fair time to offer for viewings in fairness. If you are going to cooperate you would need to make it a time that would actually suit people to come to the house, so a midweek evening I guess would be best.

They only asked on Monday for a Saturday viewing!!

repsol

There is a saying "wanting to have your cake and eat it" and it sums up this landlord to a tee.If he wants to show people around the house he can go through the legal route to get you out and then DO WITHOUT HIS RENT while he tries to get a buyer.If he wants the rent ,he can **** off with his viewings.He probably cannot afford the mortgage without your rent so I would tell him nicely but firmly that NO VIEWINGS are acceptable.He sounds like a cheeky **** and that is me speaking as a former landlord!If push comes to shove you could live there for a LONG time without paying him a penny so he should be grateful to have a decent family as tenants and leave you in peace.

Doom

Update; we sent the landlord an email expressing our concerns and rights as tenants. And also that we are not allowing any viewings until last month of tenancy....whenever that will be...hope he understands..

djimi

If you are on a part 4 tenancy then taking that attitude is likely to lead to them giving you notice to vacate on the basis that they intend to sell. For 3.5 years youll be given 12 weeks (84 days) notice. Just a heads up.

the_syco

For peace of mind, I wouldn't do "open viewings" (where there may be 10 or so people looking in your home at once). Ensure someone is near them, as it's your house, and if they wanted to poke around, you don't want them taking any souvenirs home with them.

Doom

djimi wrote: »

If you are on a part 4 tenancy then taking that attitude is likely to lead to them giving you notice to vacate on the basis that they intend to sell. For 3.5 years youll be given 12 weeks (84 days) notice. Just a heads up.

Thanks, but I'm aware of that. He seems to want it both ways, if a sale doesn't go through he wants us as tenants, I'm not letting him walk all over me and my family.

jmayo

djimi wrote: »

If you are on a part 4 tenancy then taking that attitude is likely to lead to them giving you notice to vacate on the basis that they intend to sell. For 3.5 years youll be given 12 weeks (84 days) notice. Just a heads up.

But then they will probably have no one paying the rent, and probably the mortgage, for a period of time while they try to find a buyer and lest not someone forget it is a buyers market for vast majority of cases.

And I don't think many people will sign a lease or rent somewhere that has a for sale sign attached to it.
Families definitely won't chance that.

It sounds like the landlord is checking the lie of the land and trying to see if it is worth their while selling.
But in true fashion they still want to have the tenants in to pay the rent while they treat the house as their own for selling purposes.
When will some landlords cop on that when you rent or lease something to someone it is theirs to then use and you as landlord don't have full access rights over it?
As someone said you can't have your cake and eat it.

djimi

jmayo wrote: »

But then they will probably have no one paying the rent, and probably the mortgage, for a period of time while they try to find a buyer and lest not someone forget it is a buyers market for vast majority of cases.

And I don't think many people will sign a lease or rent somewhere that has a for sale sign attached to it.
Families definitely won't chance that.

It sounds like the landlord is checking the lie of the land and trying to see if it is worth their while selling.
But in true fashion they still want to have the tenants in to pay the rent while they treat the house as their own for selling purposes.
When will some landlords cop on that when you rent or lease something to someone it is theirs to then use and you as landlord don't have full access rights over it?
As someone said you can't have your cake and eat it.

Depends on how serious they are about selling I guess. If they properly want to sell and the tenant is getting sticky about allowing viewings; putting stipulations on it like they cannot view until the last month of the tenancy etc, then the landlord doesnt have much choice other than to ask the tenant to leave, do they?

The place might well suit someone who is looking for a short term letting. No fixed term lease means that the tenant can be asked to leave in 28 days, but perhaps there are some who would be content with such an arrangement if it meant getting the place for cheaper while they need it.

The landlord is well within his rights to look to sell the place. The OP is not protected by a fixed term lease and as such can be asked to move out if the landlord wants to sell. I would imagine that in such a case most landlords and tenants will come to an arrangement regarding viewings; one a fortnight in exchange for rent reduction or something like that, but in this case the OP does not seem interested in that so its up to the landlord to make the call.

jmayo

djimi wrote: »

Depends on how serious they are about selling I guess. If they properly want to sell and the tenant is getting sticky about allowing viewings; putting stipulations on it like they cannot view until the last month of the tenancy etc, then the landlord doesnt have much choice other than to ask the tenant to leave, do they?

Well the tenant wasn't informed upfront about this proposed sale it appears.
They stumbled upon it and was then informed by the landlord after it was already advertised.
Then the landlord gave the tenant 5 days notice that they wanted to set up a viewing.
So far I don't see the landlord doing much accommodating and the tenant expected to bend over backwards.
And the tenant has every right to be "sticky" about viewings, it is their bloody family home.
Or would you expect them and their kids to run to the local pub at a moments notice becuase the landlord/agent had someone coming to view it ? :rolleyes:

djimi wrote: »

The place might well suit someone who is looking for a short term letting. No fixed term lease means that the tenant can be asked to leave in 28 days, but perhaps there are some who would be content with such an arrangement if it meant getting the place for cheaper while they need it.

There is no way I could see a family renting it.
Yeah sure you can get a bunch of lads in with stipulation that they have to be out pretty sharpist if sold.
But would you want to be taking viewings on a property that had a bunch of lads staying in it.
The only alternative would be renting to someones who were coming to area on short term contract.

djimi wrote: »

The landlord is well within his rights to look to sell the place.

Nobody questioned that.
What I think is unacceptable is that they think they can expect rent from the tenants, even though they want to drag viewers through "their" home anytime they feel like it in order to try and sell it, with a very probable ultimate outcome that the tenants are going to be forced to move out.
If they were considerate they would have mentioned to sitting tenants they were going to put it on the market and arrange viewing terms.
Instead they didn't inform the tenants until after the fact and then try and rush through a viewing for a weekend morning.

djimi wrote: »

The OP is not protected by a fixed term lease and as such can be asked to move out if the landlord wants to sell. I would imagine that in such a case most landlords and tenants will come to an arrangement regarding viewings; one a fortnight in exchange for rent reduction or something like that, but in this case the OP does not seem interested in that so its up to the landlord to make the call.

So if you were the OP what would you do ?
Are you a landlord or a tenant btw ?

djimi

Im a tenant, have never been a landlord!

There is nothing in law that I am aware of that says that a landlord must inform a tenant of their intentions to sell the property (I may be wrong about that but Ive never come across anything). If the property is on the market for months on end with no interest in it then there is no reason to inform the tenant really. It would be polite to do so, and obviously if you want to ask about viewings then you need to inform the tenant.

If I were the OP I would probably sit down and talk to my landlord and see what arrangement can be met. I wouldnt be allowing multiple viewings every week, but if the landlord was willing to make it worth my while in terms of a rent reduction then Im sure I could accomodate one or two per month. Depends on what can be agreed. I would have no intention of vacating the property, and would ensure that I am watching anyone that is brought into my home at all times.

Its far from an ideal situation, but its one that can happen when you are renting. Its easiest to try and find a solution that works best for both parties, rather than digging your heals in and probably ending up getting told to leave.

trippeltri

Hello OP, this "testing the waters" of your Landlord is according to me extremely unprofessional and very disrespectful of yourself and your family and of the potential buyers alike: as someone looking to buy an house, I now learned to always ask in advance EA if the house is tenant occupied and if it is, i am just not interested anymore.
If you really like the house, I think you should sit with your Landlord and understand for how long he wants to "test the waters" - selling an house its not the fastest process, and with tenants in I think it will just take longer than average -therefore your privacy could be compromised for a long time, and I do not think its acceptable for you and your family. Good luck

Doom

To add to the info, we are renting the house unfurnished too, all items in the house are ours.
The landlord and us agreed to one viewing at short notice, then he wanted another with four days notice and never told us it was an open viewing, we also found this out from daft.ie

djimi

An open viewing is completely out of order. Tell him where he can shove that idea.

A gentle reminder of his obligations and your rights sounds like it might be in order. It's one thing coming to an agreement about occasional viewings but this guy sounds like he simply doesn't care that you live there. Maybe remind him that there is a law in place that says he is not to infringe on your right to peaceful enjoyment of the property that you are renting from the him.

EricPraline

OP based on your first post, I was going to agree that the landlord may be testing the waters, with a view to selling in the future, and this might be a prudent move on their part.

However, there is a world of difference between 1-2 discreet private viewings at the occupier's convenience, and an open viewing at short notice. While this may have been the agent's idea, regardless this is wholly inappropriate in the circumstances, without discussing his/her plans with you in advance. It also indicates that the landlord may be doing more than just testing the waters.

jmayo

djimi wrote: »

Im a tenant, have never been a landlord!

There is nothing in law that I am aware of that says that a landlord must inform a tenant of their intentions to sell the property (I may be wrong about that but Ive never come across anything). If the property is on the market for months on end with no interest in it then there is no reason to inform the tenant really. It would be polite to do so,

And there you have it.
There is nothing in law, but it is the decent and polite thing to do to let your sitting tenants know what you are doing with "their home".
So far from reading the OP's posts the landlord hasn't any idea about being polite or decent.
He as I said above, he is under the same impression that a lot of our Irish landlords are under, that they can come and go as they please because it is "their" house.

djimi wrote: »

Its far from an ideal situation, but its one that can happen when you are renting. Its easiest to try and find a solution that works best for both parties, rather than digging your heals in and probably ending up getting told to leave.

That would be the ideal, but by the looks of it the landlord just sees it as is house to do with as he likes, even though someone is paying to use it as their home.

Doom wrote: »

To add to the info, we are renting the house unfurnished too, all items in the house are ours.

And this raises the stakes.
In that case there is no bloody way I would allow anyone in unwatched.
The agent won't give a damm and is representing the landlord and not your property i.e. the contents.

Doom wrote: »

The landlord and us agreed to one viewing at short notice, then he wanted another with four days notice and never told us it was an open viewing, we also found this out from daft.ie

This is pulling the pi**.
There is no way that I would allow an open viewing.
How would he like it if a bunch of strangers were foisted upon him at short notice and were allowed go through his home and gawk at his belongings ?

Maybe time to remind the landlord of a few things as djimi mentions below.

Also I think it is time to look for somewhere else as landlord will probably get the hump and start acting even more of a spanner.
The best medicine a guy like this can get is to see how he likes it when he hasn't any rental income coming in for a few months while he tries to find a buyer.

djimi wrote: »

An open viewing is completely out of order. Tell him where he can shove that idea.

A gentle reminder of his obligations and your rights sounds like it might be in order. It's one thing coming to an agreement about occasional viewings but this guy sounds like he simply doesn't care that you live there. Maybe remind him that there is a law in place that says he is not to infringe on your right to peaceful enjoyment of the property that you are renting from the him.

I think you are finally getting the idea.

djimi

jmayo wrote: »

And there you have it.
There is nothing in law, but it is the decent and polite thing to do to let your sitting tenants know what you are doing with "their home".
So far from reading the OP's posts the landlord hasn't any idea about being polite or decent.
He as I said above, he is under the same impression that a lot of our Irish landlords are under, that they can come and go as they please because it is "their" house.

The OP is not a sitting tenant; they can and will be asked to leave the property as soon as a buyer is found.

Im not disagreeing with you that the landlord is acting like a dick and showing very little consideration, but as things stand he is doing very little that is actually breaking the law. Im not trying to defend him and I dont agree with his actions, but that doesnt change the legal situation. So far he hasnt actually shown up with a potential buyer demanding to be let in, and he hasnt actually carried out anything that has been advertised. He didnt even hassle the OP to look for a viewing until the OP brought it up first.

Doom

Thanks for all the advice, I'm going to stick to my guns on what I've said in an email to the landlord, it was firm but fair, he was not up front with us and this is how its all gone sour.
I may have annoyed him by this and he may well give us our notice...it probably was gonna happen anyway. At least I will not have strangers in my home!

And he'll have to fork out for furniture if he cannot sell it.......

Doom

djimi wrote: »

The OP is not a sitting tenant; they can and will be asked to leave the property as soon as a buyer is found.

Im not disagreeing with you that the landlord is acting like a dick and showing very little consideration, but as things stand he is doing very little that is actually breaking the law. Im not trying to defend him and I dont agree with his actions, but that doesnt change the legal situation. So far he hasnt actually shown up with a potential buyer demanding to be let in, and he hasnt actually carried out anything that has been advertised. He didnt even hassle the OP to look for a viewing until the OP brought it up first.

Wrong, landlord asked for viewings 1st....see post no.12

the_syco

The landlord sounds like a bit of an orsehorle, so if you're not at home, ask one of the neighbours who you trust to keep an eye on it, in case the landlord brings over anyone whilst he thinks you're not at home.

jmayo

djimi wrote: »

The OP is not a sitting tenant; they can and will be asked to leave the property as soon as a buyer is found.

Im not disagreeing with you that the landlord is acting like a dick and showing very little consideration, but as things stand he is doing very little that is actually breaking the law. Im not trying to defend him and I dont agree with his actions, but that doesnt change the legal situation...

I hate that argument that they are doing nothing illegal even when they are pi**ing all over someone.
It would be nice if they showed a bit of consideration and it would more likely they would get some in return.

That argument has been one that our politicans have a bad habit of resorting to when caught doing something unethical and immoral.

the_syco wrote: »

The landlord sounds like a bit of an orsehorle, so if you're not at home, ask one of the neighbours who you trust to keep an eye on it, in case the landlord brings over anyone whilst he thinks you're not at home.

I wouldn't put it past this guy.

Would that not be a case for dragging the landlord into court ?
After all the contents of the house are the tenants and would exposing them to a third party without the tenants knowledge not constitute a risk to the tenants property ?

ABajaninCork

OP, have you spoken to Threshold about this? I think they would be very interested in what's going on. I would also look to the PRTB for advice too.

Doom

ABajaninCork wrote: »

OP, have you spoken to Threshold about this? I think they would be very interested in what's going on. I would also look to the PRTB for advice too.

I'll see what develops, it will be my next port of call if its get bad.....hopefully not. Thanks.

beaner88

It's cheap enough to change the locks on your house. It's always a good idea to do so when you move house as you never know who has a key. Not strictly allowable without the landlords permission but its the far lesser sin than somebody trespassing without your consent.

tara73

beaner88 wrote: »

It's cheap enough to change the locks on your house. It's always a good idea to do so when you move house as you never know who has a key. Not strictly allowable without the landlords permission but its the far lesser sin than somebody trespassing without your consent.

wouldn't go as far as that. the OP is just putting himself in the wrong first with doing this.

as little as I like this mistrust and enforcing it, but there was a thread some time ago where the tenant put up kind of a video/camera advice on his laptop, so this camera on the laptop was recording, but without any visibility.
sure the landlord did the thing and entered the property whith the tenant not at home and was recorded from the camera on the laptop.

just to show you this possibility.
I feel sorry for you, it's your home and just awful living in this situation never being sure what the LL is up to next.