Referendum 15th Nov

Polar Ice

The upcoming Referendum RE New Student Centre - Arena Extension & Development of Maguires playing pitches.

This will affect all UL students.

Thoughts?

MajesticDonkey

How long is it supposed to take to complete?

Polar Ice

Where's the website with all the information for the referendum?

(I know there's no website, it's just shocking it's hard to find info online.)

All there really is:

• http://www.anfocal.ie/news/5364/landslide-needed-to-ensure-levy-referendum-victory
• http://www.anfocal.ie/news/5199/new-student-centre-campus-developments-will-cost-e40m
• http://issuu.com/ulsu/docs/af_xxi_1_ (Pages 1,3,4)
• http://ulwolves.ie/info/publications/UL%20Wolves%20Newsletter%20Sept%202012.pdf (Pages 1,10,11)

Shouldn't there be a basic website with some info. 4 pages maybe.
1. Overview
2. Student Centre
3. Pitches
4. Arena extention
Maybe something like http://www.childrensreferendum.ie/ except even more basic?

Polar Ice

After doing a little digging:
http://www.ulsu.ie/about/studentcentreplans
http://www.ulsu.ie/file/Student%20Centre%20and%20Dynamic%20Music%20Hub%2016-7-12%20Rev%201.pdf

The links aren't exactly in a visible part of the site. They're under the 'about' menu, and there's noting in the news stream about it.

Gael23

I oppose this simply because of the increase in the student levy. Now is not the right time to increase this with constant increases in the Student contribution.

ChrisOF

There are some things that should be bourn in mind when it comes to this project. Specifically if the referendum is not passed, planning permission for the arena extension will lapse, its not as simple as rejecting it now and having it as an option later.

There is some stuff that is now or never (Well not in the near future anyway)


Edit: I agree there is a woefull lack of publicity on this though, hardly no one knows there is to be a referendum next week.

reunion

ChrisOF wrote: »

There are some things that should be bourn in mind when it comes to this project. Specifically if the referendum is not passed, planning permission for the arena extension will lapse, its not as simple as rejecting it now and having it as an option later.

There is some stuff that is now or never (Well not in the near future anyway)


Edit: I agree there is a woefull lack of publicity on this though, hardly no one knows there is to be a referendum next week.

The referendum is in 2 weeks on the 8th of November. Not next week

Jester252

Where did ye find the date

Polar Ice

Jester252 wrote: »

Where did ye find the date

Wolves.ie website. A comment by Paul Lee.

Gael23

ChrisOF wrote: »

There are some things that should be bourn in mind when it comes to this project. Specifically if the referendum is not passed, planning permission for the arena extension will lapse, its not as simple as rejecting it now and having it as an option later.

There is some stuff that is now or never (Well not in the near future anyway)

Thats a fair point but the reality is students have to pay for it.

Polar Ice

Presently, these are the student charges in the Universities. (From a quick search of University websites. Don't hold me to exact numbers.)
DCU = 38
UL = 72
TCD = 85
NUIM = 97
UCC = 155
UCD = 183
NUIG = 224

If the referendum is passed, I believe the UL student charge will increase to 130 for the time duration to cover the loans to pay for the developments proposed.
An additional 20 will be added to that as an operations levy once the student centre is substantially complete.

To rank against student charges in the other universities, the current UL charge is low. If passed, the UL charge would move to the middle of the table.

J_E

Call me naive (and this is a relatively uninformed opinion), but with all the talks of budget cuts and belt-tightening in the university, doesn't this seem like an unnecessary, overly ambitious project? Would the addition of a stage next to the CSIS cause noise problems for anyone working in there I wonder? Wonder how this would affect the opening hours for connected buildings...

Polar Ice

Cydoniac wrote: »

Would the addition of a stage next to the CSIS cause noise problems for anyone working in there I wonder?

For anyone interested in CSIS, I strongly suggest you look at this document:
http://www.ulsu.ie/file/Student%20Ce...%20Rev%201.pdf

Cydoniac wrote: »

Call me naive (and this is a relatively uninformed opinion), but with all the talks of budget cuts and belt-tightening in the university, doesn't this seem like an unnecessary, overly ambitious project?

Capital projects are different to operational budgets.

eoins23456

MajesticDonkey wrote: »

How long is it supposed to take to complete?

December 2015 I think

Chimaera

As I posted in another thread, I'm opposed to the three projects being lumped into one vote: it's disingenuous to force people's hand like that and I think it'll backfire on the union.

There's a need for the sports facilities to be upgraded. The student centre is a nice idea but not strictly necessary as it does not provide a significant improvement over existing facilities on campus.

Is there any word from UL about how they plan to proceed if the students do not vote for this? Will they go ahead and seek funding from other sources to complete the projects and bill the use of the completed facilities to the SU? Will they implement part of the plans? Will they drop it altogether?

If it's passed, what becomes of the existing student centre? (The one that was paid for with ~IR£4 million of students' money)

Given that the proposed new students' centre is jointly funded by UL and ULSU, is there a Memorandum of Understanding in place yet to detail how the use of the building will be managed? Will it be UL that have the final say about it with the SU having to do what they're told? Will the building be divided into UL and SU areas with each having control over their own areas? Are there provisions in place to prevent UL turning around and charging for use of facilities that have been paid for already?

sceptre

Polar Ice wrote: »

Presently, these are the student charges in the Universities. (From a quick search of University websites. Don't hold me to exact numbers.)
DCU = 38
UL = 72
TCD = 85
NUIM = 97
UCC = 155
UCD = 183
NUIG = 224

If the referendum is passed, I believe the UL student charge will increase to 130 for the time duration to cover the loans to pay for the developments proposed.
An additional 20 will be added to that as an operations levy once the student centre is substantially complete.

To rank against student charges in the other universities, the current UL charge is low. If passed, the UL charge would move to the middle of the table.

In a few of the other colleges, those charges include free (well, no additional charge for) use of the sports centre by students - the only ones I checked were Trinity, NUIG, UCC and UCD, where the charge covers free (no additional charge for) sports centre usage (UCD specifically offers the gym at no extra cost but charges for pool use).

In UL, there's a membership fee for individual student usage in addition to the charge for building it. It's not a like-for-like comparison in all cases. If the UL charge went to 130 and doesn't include no-charge usage of the facilities, it would be the highest levy charge in the country that doesn't offer free usage of the sports centre it's paying for. Easier to compare apples with apples.:)

As 8-month (academic year) arena membership for students is €195, if you add that optional element to the mandatory €72, making €267 (it might be more accurate to add the full year membership of €258 but I'm picking the lower figure), one could reasonably argue that the current charge is the highest in the country, on a like-for-like basis. Maybe it's not easier to compare apples with apples but it's a better idea of reality, even with unfortunate added fuzziness.

supackofidiots

I was under the impression that this could only be put to referendum if it was passed at the recent agm?? and that didnt meet quorum so this was now off the table?

Gael23

sceptre wrote: »

In a few of the other colleges, those charges include free (well, no additional charge for) use of the sports centre by students - the only ones I checked were Trinity, NUIG, UCC and UCD, where the charge covers free (no additional charge for) sports centre usage (UCD specifically offers the gym at no extra cost but charges for pool use).

In UL, there's a membership fee for individual student usage in addition to the charge for building it. It's not a like-for-like comparison in all cases. If the UL charge went to 130 and doesn't include no-charge usage of the facilities, it would be the highest levy charge in the country that doesn't offer free usage of the sports centre it's paying for. Easier to compare apples with apples.:)

As 8-month (academic year) arena membership for students is €195, if you add that optional element to the mandatory €72, making €267 (it might be more accurate to add the full year membership of €258 but I'm picking the lower figure), one could reasonably argue that the current charge is the highest in the country, on a like-for-like basis. Maybe it's not easier to compare apples with apples but it's a better idea of reality, even with unfortunate added fuzziness.

I know gym usage is included for free in UCD, not sure about others

sceptre

supackofidiots wrote: »

I was under the impression that this could only be put to referendum if it was passed at the recent agm?? and that didnt meet quorum so this was now off the table?

*looks up intertubes*

A referendum can be called by a general meeting, student council or a petition signed by 200 students. The first two would require a quorate meeting. The draft constitution (which I don't think has been passed, correct me if I'm wrong) specifically requires a two-thirds majority at a quorate general meeting or student council (implicit in the older constitution) or a 200-signature petition.

Of course, the "new" (in the new constitution) student council is different to the "old" (in the old constitution) student council as the thing that was student council is now called the student forum so it, all of a sudden, matters whether the new constitution has been approved by an AGM. If the old one is in place, it needs to be approved by a full meeting of the student forum as that used to be the student council - if the new one is in place, it needs to be approved by the smaller student council. Just for legalities, you understand - there's always one student or a thousand who may legitimately refuse to pay if the simplicities aren't covered (as technically the referendum would be invalid if they pick the wrong one) - it's always important to cover them and lawyers sometimes aren't the best at noticing these things on their own.

tl;dr version: One assumes (even if one should never really assume) that there's been a quorate student council or forum (whichever is necessary) or a big petition which called for the referendum. I would assume that the promulgation (lovely word, that) of the referendum wording would include that as a note.

reunion

sceptre wrote: »

In a few of the other colleges, those charges include free ....

.... even with unfortunate added fuzziness.

This isn't the exact same comparison. In UL currently if you don't have gym membership, you don't pay €195. The €72 currently goes towards capital development (the boathouse).

If this is voted on (and passed), the rate for students will be reduced in the gym (as far as I'm aware, I could be wrong). It would be reduced so that paying the levy and gym membership would be less than paying the €72 now and gym membership. This would also give people the choice of gym membership.

It was passed by student council/class reps/SU mini wolf babies/ whatever you want to call it. There were also a motion circulating a few weeks for 200 signatures. Don't know which one called the referendum but it has been called.

Chimaera wrote: »

As I posted in another thread, I'm opposed to the three projects being lumped into one vote: it's disingenuous to force people's hand like that and I think it'll backfire on the union.

From the previous thread, our views differ on this. As the referendum is about the 3 projects, instead of bringing up this point again, stick to the referendum itself and vote on the 8th of November.

Chimaera wrote: »

There's a need for the sports facilities to be upgraded. The student centre is a nice idea but not strictly necessary as it does not provide a significant improvement over existing facilities on campus.

Is there any word from UL about how they plan to proceed if the students do not vote for this? Will they go ahead and seek funding from other sources to complete the projects and bill the use of the completed facilities to the SU? Will they implement part of the plans? Will they drop it altogether?

If this vote (and a possible vote in second semester if this fails) both fail. The levy on the boat house and the arena extension planning permission expires and no arena extension will happen. Maguires and the SU will stay the way it is. The college will NOT be able to source ANY funding WITHOUT ~50% secured beforehand (hence the referendum). All plans would be effectively dropped.

Chimaera wrote: »

If it's passed, what becomes of the existing student centre? (The one that was paid for with ~IR£4 million of students' money)

Given that the proposed new students' centre is jointly funded by UL and ULSU, is there a Memorandum of Understanding in place yet to detail how the use of the building will be managed? Will it be UL that have the final say about it with the SU having to do what they're told? Will the building be divided into UL and SU areas with each having control over their own areas? Are there provisions in place to prevent UL turning around and charging for use of facilities that have been paid for already?

The Student Union could potentially become the medical centre/SAA (the SU president discussed this at C&S council). The Union would get a rental income, however I don't know the amount.

There is no point in creating a memorandum of understanding until the referendum is passed. Without the referendum, it would be all for waste. No point in having the limitied Sabbats and limited C&S staff tied up creating (and students paying for) a legal document that might not be required. If these projects are approved, a Memorandum of Understanding will be created.

Chimaera

From the previous thread, our views differ on this. As the referendum is about the 3 projects, instead of bringing up this point again, stick to the referendum itself and vote on the 8th of November.

It's a valid point, revelant to the discussion at hand.

The Student Union could potentially become the medical centre/SAA (the SU president discussed this at C&S council). The Union would get a rental income, however I don't know the amount.

That's all a bit vague. Has there been any formal communication with Buildings and Estates about this yet? Students are entitled to know exactly how a facility they paid for will be disposed of?

There is no point in creating a memorandum of understanding until the referendum is passed. Without the referendum, it would be all for waste. No point in having the limitied Sabbats and limited C&S staff tied up creating (and students paying for) a legal document that might not be required. If these projects are approved, a Memorandum of Understanding will be created.

The whole point of having one before the vote is so that students can be confident they won't get shafted by the University before they commit €40 million of their own funds to the project. It's a huge amount of money whatever way you look at it and the SU is under an obligation to ensure it gets spent properly and to the absolute benefit of the student body it represents. Anything less is a sellout to the University.

sceptre

reunion wrote: »

This isn't the exact same comparison. In UL currently if you don't have gym membership, you don't pay €195. The €72 currently goes towards capital development (the boathouse).

That's the trouble - it isn't a like-for-like comparison when listing the mandatory charge in UL versus the mandatory charge in other colleges. It's up to people to choose which one they want to pick - the larger or the smaller but I suggest that it's important to pick the same conditions in both cases. The 72 obviously goes towards capital development as that was the condition under which it was approved. I assume that the entire loan on the building of the arena has been paid off then based on what you've said? At some point they were operating in parallel with the boathouse loan but as the projected payoff date on the arena loan was based on a smaller number of students than are currently attending, that may well be completed by now. In any case, in some other colleges, paying the higher charge (in Trinity, barely a higher charge, especially when the €8pa for USI membership is discounted) currently gets students something that paying the charge in UL does not.

It'd be cool if the proposed higher charge in UL would include a lowering of the arena membership charge for students. I would suggest that this is the sort of thing that would ideally need to be highlighted in advance of the vote, like the proposed later usage of the current student centre. Not in a vague way, in something akin to a concrete way. These are basic things that should be communicated to the students who are asked to pay more. Every time the government increases the main student charge, student representatives highlight that students are paying more for the same service or a lesser service. It would seem rational that people would be informed of what's going to happen with the things they already (at least theoretically) own or paid for the construction of. Basic stuff. Communication is a good thing. Information is a good thing. It also makes it easier to sell the proposal as people stop asking questions that should already have answers:)

On the whole, it's probably even a good thing. But without laying out the information for people to make an informed choice with all the information, it's a far harder sell. Basic stuff. The basics should always be covered - otherwise, people legitimately worry about the bigger stuff.

Polar Ice

Polar Ice wrote: »

Presently, these are the student charges in the Universities. (From a quick search of University websites. Don't hold me to exact numbers.)
DCU = 38
UL = 72
TCD = 85
NUIM = 97
UCC = 155
UCD = 183
NUIG = 224

sceptre wrote: »

In a few of the other colleges, those charges include free (well, no additional charge for) use of the sports centre by students - the only ones I checked were Trinity, NUIG, UCC and UCD, where the charge covers free (no additional charge for) sports centre usage (UCD specifically offers the gym at no extra cost but charges for pool use).

...

Maybe it's not easier to compare apples with apples but it's a better idea of reality, even with unfortunate added fuzziness.

I'm not sure comparing apples with apples, as you've put it, is possible (too much fuzziness).
Using UCD as the example, yes they have free use of the gym but not between 6:15pm and 8:15pm (peak hours). As you pointed out, use of the pool in UCD is not included in their student charge. That costs €100 more for the year, or €4 per each use.

I only inserted the figures as a quick reference (my comment "don't hold me to exact figures"). If you want to more accurately compare them it's not just a matter of slapping on full gym membership for the year.

I still think it's fair to say that presently UL's student charge is lower than average.

(I think it's worth commenting that both sceptre and I are alumni)

reunion wrote: »

From the previous thread, our views differ on this. As the referendum is about the 3 projects, instead of bringing up this point again, stick to the referendum itself and vote on the 8th of November.

Chimaera wrote: »

It's a valid point, revelant to the discussion at hand.

Chimaera made this point at the recent AGM. The ULSU response was that they didn't think the 3 items would pass individually, so they've been grouped together. It is relevant and interesting to note the strategy being used to try and pass the referendum.

sceptre

Polar Ice wrote: »

I'm not sure comparing apples with apples, as you've put it, is possible (too much fuzziness).

*... snip - full post available above*

I only inserted the figures as a quick reference (my comment "don't hold me to exact figures"). If you want to more accurately compare them it's not just a matter of slapping on full gym membership for the year.

Absolutely. And it's still a good thing that you took the time to find them and post them (and, as far as I can see, your figures are exactly correct) - they're useful to know. Adding to the small pile of available information would be reason enough to post them and posting them does a bit more than just that.

Making a comparison when somewhere else charges A and gets B, while UL charges C and gets D is pretty difficult, in fairness. A direct like-for-like comparison isn't easily possible and may be impossible but, unfortunately, if it's impossible then the only use the figures have is to reveal a level of annual specific expenditure that different groups of students have historically chosen to bear at different times for different reasons. And if that's the only thing it indicates, then the comparison is really only of use to an accountant somewhere in a windowless office justifying a charge regardless of purpose. That list you've provided is of more use than that. It's a fuzzy comparison and, really, a mesh of fuzzy comparisons but, you know, you gotta start somewhere:)

supackofidiots

I'll vote no. I don't think in this climate it is the right time to be building unnecessary stuff and burdening students and families with any further unnecessary financial burden. and the nightclub plan is pretty horrific.

J_E

I'm not feeling this either, seems more frivolous than necessary right now. Would do them better to improve on the Students Union they have right now also rather than simply expand. It's something for the future though.

wnolan1992

The more I think about it, the further I lean towards the No side.

There's a lot of improvements which would be possible with the new Student Centre, but there're a few aspects to it that seem unnecessary and just there for the sake of being there.

Still undecided though, must give a look over the plans again later.

freyners

whats deciding this vote for me is the maguires re development, its pathetic that this has been an issue for so long so its a yes from me

Doctor_Mossie

From what I understand, there is a time limit on the funding, in that a large amount is no longer available by this time next year, so the Union might have maybe one more chance to pass this if the Referendum doesnt reach quorum. So if it seems frivolous, or badly timed, its because if they dont do it now, they wont have the opportunity to do it in the future.

Ginge Young

I'll be voting yes, and I will be pushing all others to do so. The simple fact of the matter is that right now, these buildings are going to be cheaper than ever to build. It is important to not forget the financial burden on a lot of students but I maintain that an additional 60 euro is relatively nothing, so long as students are helping their families out in any way that they can. For parents with 2 or more kids going to UL it can be a bit much, but if the students want this, it is more than affordable.

As for leaving this off, I don't believe that will work, Clubs and Societies are at breaking point. Rooms can now only be booked in the kemmy at night, the main building is not longer available, storage has always been and issue and not to mention the issue with pitches and getting maguires fixed up.

From my own personal side of things, the climbing wall, we need a new one, the solution we have from buildings and estates currently is a temporary solution, the long term solution being the arena. Without a climbing wall the club will die.

The additional sports facilities inside the arena will help all the other Clubs and Socs too.

People are getting mixed up with the nightclub thing: it is a venue for absolutely anything you want, a concert, a play, intervarsities etc etc.

60 euro extra? 3 less nights out on the town over 12 months.

I believe this entire development is needed and overall will help boost students involvement in all aspects of the campus community.

Gael23

Leaning towards the opposed side too, I think €150 is far too high for the student levy. I'm not going to argue with ginges point because its correct but I just think its too much to ask off students and their parents at the moment. People might say its €70 a year but that's on top of increases in the student service charge and all the other taxes/charges that people have to pay at the moment.

ninty9er

Chimaera wrote: »

That's all a bit vague. Has there been any formal communication with Buildings and Estates about this yet? Students are entitled to know exactly how a facility they paid for will be disposed of?

Who do you think commissioned an architect and has approved the redesignation of use for CSiS? Buildings and Estates were one of the first ports of call

Chimaera wrote: »

The whole point of having one before the vote is so that students can be confident they won't get shafted by the University before they commit €40 million of their own funds to the project. It's a huge amount of money whatever way you look at it and the SU is under an obligation to ensure it gets spent properly and to the absolute benefit of the student body it represents. Anything less is a sellout to the University.

It would be approx €20m if passed, overall costs estimated in the region of €40m. The referendum wording covers use of monies.

The current space didn't work on any level with architects without costing significantly more than what's proposed due to the restrictiveness of the site. It would have involved building on all outdoor spaces within the current centre. It's not suited to being a social centre due to it's architecture, which seems to have been a more important consideration in the 90s than fitness for purpose.

Whilst this wasn't my favoured option, it is the best compromise now that CSiS is to be included in the plans. The Arena plans are available, I've seen them, but I can't remember if I'd gotten a soft copy.

On the cost side, it's a significant increase and will cost each student in UL from September an additional €52 or €1 a week, and when complete a €20 operational/refurbishment sinking fund charge, the lack thereof being the main failure of the boathouse to date. There is a misunderstading here that the other referenda were passed in glorious economic times, that may be true of the Boathouse, but the others were not. 1995 Ireland wasn't exactly a booming place, but those priviliged enough to be in a university had the foresight to give so that following generations of students could benefit. Many of those who voted in 1995 never got the benefit of the current centre, the same with those in 2003 who voted for the boathouse.

Each project has its merits, but due to the nature of everyone looking out for their own patch, it has been necessary to combine the referendum, in the end everyone gets what they want if passed. I'll be on campus to promote the referendum that week if at all possible.

Polar Ice

Chimaera wrote: »

That's all a bit vague. Has there been any formal communication with Buildings and Estates about this yet? Students are entitled to know exactly how a facility they paid for will be disposed of

ninty9er wrote: »

Who do you think commissioned an architect and has approved the redesignation of use for CSiS? Buildings and Estates were one of the first ports of call

You seem to have answered the first part of Chimaera's question, but not the second. I think people would still be interested to know what happens to the existing SU building? (Specifics)

ninty9er wrote: »

Whilst this wasn't my favoured option, it is the best compromise now that CSiS is to be included in the plans. The Arena plans are available, I've seen them, but I can't remember if I'd gotten a soft copy.

With one week to go until the vote it would be great if people could easily access this information. In some of the earlier posts in the thread I posted everything I could find, but I haven't seen arena plans. Anyone care to post them?

I'm kinda surprised that the ULSU page has zero details about the total cost, the percentage students are covering from that, etc... Based on 12k students and a 130 capital charge, it seems to roughly fit with the 20m (accounting for interest repayments too) ninty9er mentioned above.

I started this thread to try and help inform people. I'm not trying to argue yes or no, I'm just hoping people post more info. That said, the specific wording for the referendum and it's conditions leave much to be desired.

With one week until the vote a lot of students seem desperately uninformed.

More stuff: http://prezi.com/qu3vmupxl79o/referendum/?auth_key=310d4b43a5b6250d2ee13785f5f7902957903caa (A presentation shown to C&S - no details on slides)

J_E

Still think €150 is steep, and not even a free gym of some sort to ease the burden. On top of rising registration fees every year it's an awful lot of money for some people to have to pay. I'm still leaning towards a no even though I understand that students in years to come might benefit from it. I just don't see it as a necessary thing right now.

Also think it's ridiculous that this hasn't been promoted properly so close to the date. Loads of people I've been talking to aren't even aware of this, that's not on for a project this big.

Jester252

Is the vote on this week?

wnolan1992

Jester252 wrote: »

Is the vote on this week?

The 8th. Thursday next week.

Polar Ice

Shockingly, yet unsurprisingly, there was no real article in the weeks An Focal about the referendum.

The SU president wrote one paragraph about it on page 7, but that was it.

Polar Ice

Arena extension architectural plans: http://www.projarch.com/UL_Arena_Extension-project150.html

Ginge Young

Did a video take today, so there should hopefully be a promotional video up before the weekend is out or on Monday or something.

canned_ulkc

A lot of great discussion going on there folks. I'm quite surprised that there doesn't seem to be a lot of promotion coming from the SU on this.....

If I still had a vote I'd vote yes. I don't really go for the "€150 is a bit expensive" argument. It's a complete red herring IMO. Sure you'd spend a lot more than the additional €80 over the course of a college semester on beer and bonbons. I know people are stretched these days but it's simply not a valid argument.

And on the point of people being stretched - there will be significant employment created in the building of these projects.

People currently in college have a lot to thank previous students for and this is an opportunity to do the same for future students for what is truly a pretty small cost.

Ginge Young

Couldn't agree any more.

I realize there are a lot of issues surrounding the amount of information that is out there and that argument is valid, but wait and see what happens next week, if it still doesn't peak peoples interest it doesn't.

It's 60 euro extra, I believe the 150 will come into effect when the Student Centre is built, so that is further down.

60 euro extra is one day of work or 3 less nights out on the town. If students' want this, it is easily obtainable to them, it just a question of whether or not they want to go through the effort or not.

Times are tough but in the long run this is the best solution and may be our only time to get it. I only wish I wasn't teaching 20 hours next week so I could campaign properly.

Ave Sodalis

canned_ulkc wrote: »

I don't really go for the "€150 is a bit expensive" argument. It's a complete red herring IMO. Sure you'd spend a lot more than the additional €80 over the course of a college semester on beer and bonbons. I know people are stretched these days but it's simply not a valid argument.

It is a valid argument though, and the reason I'd be opposed to it (although I'm yet undecided). I don't drink and can just about afford the year, relying completely on the grant. My whole year is budgeted out, down to the last cent. I don't use the gym or its facilities and I don't quite understand the necessity of a new student centre (although, since I only really use the library and lecture theatres/labs, I don't know about this)

J_E

sup_dude wrote: »

It is a valid argument though, and the reason I'd be opposed to it (although I'm yet undecided). I don't drink and can just about afford the year, relying completely on the grant. My whole year is budgeted out, down to the last cent. I don't use the gym or its facilities and I don't quite understand the necessity of a new student centre (although, since I only really use the library and lecture theatres/labs, I don't know about this)

My situation too, in fact I've had to take a year off because I couldn't afford the cost of living in Limerick and college expenses. You have to think of all students when raising the cost of college like this, especially for something not necessary right now in time.

ninty9er

Over the typical 4 year undergrad, each student currently pays €288 for capital facilities mainly for use by a minority.

A current first year will pay €432 over the course of a degree, €256 extra, or €1.23 per week over the course of 4 years. €1.23 per week is less than the cost of 1 bus journey, a Coke contour bottle, a sliced pan, 2 litres of milk, a days parking....you get where I'm going with this.

The harsh reality is if you're worried about 1 or 2 quid a week, fees are the least of your worries.

This referendum isn't asking students to build the campus, it's asking for a contribution towards capital developments which are primarily for the benefit of students.

Stephen_Byrne

TST will be interviewing SU president Adam Moursy on Monday regarding the merits of the project. We are currently looking for somebody opposed to the vote to be interviewed around half three on Monday. If you're interested, get in contact.

stephen@thomondstudenttimes.com

canned_ulkc

Cydoniac wrote: »

My situation too, in fact I've had to take a year off because I couldn't afford the cost of living in Limerick and college expenses. You have to think of all students when raising the cost of college like this, especially for something not necessary right now in time.

My own situation was hardly easy either lads and when it came to grant cuts, mine was cut by about 60%. I still think it's a red herring.

You didn't put UL on your CAO application because of the relatively low cost of the student levy so please don't present it as a valid argument. It's simply not.

J_E

And what about the people who have to pay registration fees? As well as an increasing bump each year to the already €2000+ cost, this is also hitting a student. It's easy to say 'oh it's only 1 bottle of Coke a week' but it's not. Sure, I'll vote for it, if anything just for the future students who I'm sure will make use of it, but I'm just disappointed they have nothing else to show for the bump, i.e more competitive gym rates for students.

I can see the point being made and won't argue it any more, but hypothetically if the fee was bumped to say, €300 and the university tried saying 'ah sure that's only a pint a week' would you buy it?

Ave Sodalis

canned_ulkc wrote: »

You didn't put UL on your CAO application because of the relatively low cost of the student levy so please don't present it as a valid argument. It's simply not.

UL was my 8th choice, put in as a fill in but had to be picked after messing up my exams. It was UL or move country. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad now I went to UL but using 'you chose for this reason' etc. is what's not valid as an argument. Relatively low cost of student levy could very well have been some peoples reason for UL.

If you're worried about 1 or 2 quid a week, fees are almost the most of your worries

Still, the arguments presented for justification of the fees wouldn't cut it for me personally, although I'm still unsure as I know the benefits for future users of the arena.

Stephen_Byrne

Hey Guys,

My best attempt at writing a simple explainer of what we're voting on. Let me know if there are any improvements you'd suggest. (Unbiased ones :P)

http://www.thomondstudenttimes.com/index.php/features/232-referendumexplainer

Polar Ice

Polar Ice wrote: »

Shouldn't there be a basic website with some info. 4 pages maybe.
1. Overview
2. Student Centre
3. Pitches
4. Arena extension

Looks like there's a website: http://ulsureferendum.com/

Are the SU planning blitzkrieg for next week considering their lack of promotion for the impending vote?

thomond2006

Polar Ice wrote: »

Looks like there's a website: http://ulsureferendum.com/

Are the SU planning blitzkrieg for next week considering their lack of promotion for the impending vote?

As of today, there was a big stand set up (like the ones you'd see at the Careers Fair) just inside the main door of the KBS, explaining the project and showing the designs. You can't miss it.