Interesting video from BALPA

Lustrum

It seems BALPA are planning on taking on the LCCs and the conditions pilots are working in. A cynic would say that the messages in the video are clearly aimed at Ryanair.

I'd be interested to hear what the experienced guys here think about this. How are BALPA going to change the conditions for the hundreds of British pilots flying for Ryanair, when they can't be members of BALPA?

Also, I've heard stories that the Middle Eastern carries aren't all rainbows and lollipops either. Granted the money by all accounts is great, but can anyone shed any further light on this - are BALPA specifically talking about the LCCs, or are the problems they mention part of life in every airline these days?

Also, is this a case of too little too late? Do they know that nothing is going to change, but at least they are being seen to be doing something for pilot's t&cs

dubdaymo

What an arrogant bxxxxxx. My pilots are better than yours, says he. A gross insult to thousands of other pilots. Looks like the last fling of a useless trade union on its last legs with diminishing membership numbers which will eventually lead to reduction/abolition of his exorbitant salary. The sooner the better.

Fully Established

dubdaymo wrote: »

What an arrogant bxxxxxx. My pilots are better than yours, says he. A gross insult to thousands of other pilots. Looks like the last fling of a useless trade union on its last legs with diminishing membership numbers which will eventually lead to reduction/abolition of his exorbitant salary. The sooner the better.

Do you not think that this a good thing in terms of safety for all concerned that this growing problem is been addresed ,granted its going on for quiet some time but if the video raises the issues with the travelling public it lets them ask questions they would not have been aware of.It also sends out a message that these practices wont be hushed over by the airlines and hopefully makes them pay attention to pilots issues and change company practices in the name of safety which ultimately is what their business should be based on.

IngazZagni

The reason the unions are suddenly becoming concerned is because this decline in terms and conditions in the industry are spreading from LCCs to the likes of BA and Aer Lingus, those the unions are closest with.

The problem isn't just with Ryanair, it can be seen in many airlines today. Easyjet flexicrew, Wizz Air, Vueling and Norwegian have all seen a huge downward spiral in t+c's. Air Europa are looking to cut salaries by 30%. Iberia will announce 6,000 job losses next month. The industry is in the gutter thanks to a variety of reasons.

From what I've seen the contracts in Emirates aren't exactly all there cracked up to be either, better but nothing to get too excited about.

IALPA and BALPA have been forced to work more closely with the LCC pilots. I do credit IALPA for doing a god job in getting more FR pilots on their books and they now make up quite a significant percentage and rising. Hopefully this will lead to positive things in the future.

dubdaymo

Fully Established wrote: »

Do you not think that this a good thing in terms of safety for all concerned that this growing problem is been addresed ,granted its going on for quiet some time but if the video raises the issues with the travelling public it lets them ask questions they would not have been aware of.It also sends out a message that these practices wont be hushed over by the airlines and hopefully makes them pay attention to pilots issues and change company practices in the name of safety which ultimately is what their business should be based on.

No. BALPA and IALPA believe they're God's gift to aviation. If they had their way we'd all be retroed back to the days of the EI/BA cartel, air travel reserved for the rich and passengers sitting for hours in the terminal while the flight crew takes their extended lunchtime. Their superior-than-thou attitude is obnoxious.

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Not entirely true dubdaymo.

T&C's for pilots and airline staff are going (gone) down the toilet. The likes of IALPA/BALPA and the ECA (European Cockpit Association) are the only ones trying to tackle this issue.

The IAA dont give a 5hite and EASA or whatever they call themselves these days arn't much better.

While I agree that these unions are also trying to protect the "legacy" carriers cushy lifestyles from degrading to what the LCC boys have to put with, there is merit it what the fella was saying.

Captain Sullenberger raised this issue quite well in his address to Congress.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRvy2o-hV-Y#t=2m40s

He has a point!

Milan Cobian

The video raises some valid concerns and should cause any wannabe to consider removing their rose-tinted lenses.
As an experienced pilot, I agree with everything he says.

dubdaymo - you obviously feel passionate about this. Who do you represent?

What an arrogant bxxxxxx.

How so? Is he factually wrong? If so where?

My pilots are better than yours, says he.

No he doesn't say that.

A gross insult to thousands of other pilots.

Which pilots are you referring to? It's not clear from the clip who these thousands of others are. Do you find it insulting that someone would wish you to enjoy decent T&C's? Each to their own I suppose.

Looks like the last fling of a useless trade union on its last legs with diminishing membership numbers which will eventually lead to reduction/abolition of his exorbitant salary.

Can you elaborate on how the factual content of his message led you to this conclusion?

If they had their way we'd all be retroed back to the days of the EI/BA cartel, air travel reserved for the rich and passengers sitting for hours in the terminal while the flight crew takes their extended lunchtime.

So apparently you either have extended lunchtimes or contract pilots earning pittance? Is there no middle ground?
Furthermore, can you advise me which unionized airline operates a cartel, transports only the rich and allows this extended lunchtime? I'm not aware of any but no doubt you can enlighten us.

Bebop

[QUOTE=dubdaymo - you obviously feel passionate about this. Who do you represent?[/QUOTE]

I would say that dubdaymo expresses his or her own view and is entitled to do so on these forums,
My personal view is that I think that the video is rather arrogant and stuffy and reeks of a closed shop mentality, I also do not accept that budget airlines skimp on safety, in todays AAIU report about the runway incursion which resulted in an rejected take off at EDIW the Ryanair pilots are praised for their actions,
But that's just me, I represent nobody but myself and will continue to fly with low cost carriers just like millions of other Europeans and that is BALPA's big problem

Milan Cobian

My personal view is that I think that the video is rather arrogant and stuffy and reeks of a closed shop mentality,

If you see past his tone etc, are there factual elements related to pilots conditions at some airlines that you dispute?

Bebop

Milan Cobian wrote: »

If you see past his tone etc, are there factual elements related to pilots conditions at some airlines that you dispute?

I simply make the point that we are entitled to express our point of view here;

If you have a point of view then please share it with us, do not cross-examine, I am not a witness at a trial, let us know your opinion on the matter in question and who you represent

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Bebop wrote: »

I also do not accept that budget airlines skimp on safety, in todays AAIU report about the runway incursion which resulted in an rejected take off at EDIW the Ryanair pilots are praised for their actions,

I imagine the pilots you mention above were not actually Ryanair employees at all but rather contract pilots paid by the scheduled flight hour.
No doubt the RTO led to a delayed flight and the poor crew working a few hours for free courtesy of MOL's stingey T&C's.

Also if Ryanair were so safety conscious why do they push their most experienced first officers, captains, type rating instructors and engineers out the door? Oh yeah, its because they don't care about loyalty or experience levels. As management openly say, if you have a problem with the way we do things then quit!
That's a mature approach to running an airline.

Bebop wrote: »

I represent nobody but myself and will continue to fly with low cost carriers just like millions of other Europeans and that is BALPA's big problem

Trust me there are plenty of pilots operating aircraft for Ryanair, Easy Jet, Whiz Air etc that are members of IALPA and BALPA so I dont see that being a problem for them.

dubdaymo

Milan Cobian wrote: »

dubdaymo - you obviously feel passionate about this. Who do you represent?

I represent nobody except myself. Maybe you don't remember what went on down through the years but I was around when IALPA and all the other union gob****es were running Dublin Airport and EI - for their selfish selves and their selfish staff. Crazy over-staffing, T&C's and wages, ludicrous work practices plus dire and subservient management all combined to keep the little man from being able to afford to get on an aircraft - and all at the taxpayer's expense. They all did their utmost to prevent anyone else getting a toe in to put an end to this folly. They failed. The LCC's eventually won through and put an end to it. Times changed - like in every other industry - and the so-called legacy carriers had to do something to stay alive. Naturally, their unions and staff didn't like the result so, at every opportunity, they make statements like "race to the bottom" and all such nonsense. T&C's in all lines of business have changed forever.

If BALPA, IALPA and ECA are so worried about standards why aren't they speaking forth about legacy carrier Air France who have had so many accidents and other near things over the past few years (two more in very recent times)- incidents that did or nearly did cause deaths or injury which, according to subsequent reports, indicate reckless or careless endangerment.

Please don't anyone quote Sully to me. Just because he got lucky on the day when he managed to crashland into the Hudson and save all onboard he seems to have been turned into some kind of God. I seem to recall that two Ryanair pilots managed to crashland their aircraft directly onto the runway and save all onboard following a double engine failure due to a major birdstrike. They weren't turned into heroes. We don't even know their names.

I have watched the BALPA video again to see if I may have misinterpreted it but no and nothing has changed my mind on the arrogance of it.

Tenger

dubdaymo wrote: »

............Please don't anyone quote Sully to me. Just because he got lucky on the day when he managed to crashland into the Hudson and save all onboard he seems to have been turned into some kind of God. I seem to recall that two Ryanair pilots managed to crashland their aircraft directly onto the runway and save all onboard following a double engine failure due to a major birdstrike. They weren't turned into heroes. We don't even know their names.......

I agree that the FR flight crew that day at CIA did a great job, FR crew are definitely very experienced due to the sheer number of sectors and variety of airports they operate into. (I too think its a disgrace that they didn't get recognition for their handling)
Please be aware that both FR and EI pilots are currently operating under the max 900 flight hours per year rule. Both companies aim to get as close to this as possible for efficiency reasons. Both companies are also running with the required staffing levels rather than being overstaffed as was the norm in semi-state bodies in the 1980/90's. So the days of cozy cartels and extended lunchbreaks are well and truly gone.

While you may find the BALPA video arrogant, it is part of a safety awareness campaign in European aviation at present. The EU is considering changing the minimum safety and rest restrictions currently in place. These rules affect all airlines whether LCC, hybrid or 'Flag carrier'. I assume that the BALPA video is aimed at FR.

Now imagine the same double birdstrike at CIA and the pilots having to deal with this incident after having been awake for 22 hours. This is the possible effect of new rules that are being tabled for the EU at present. Personally I want my FR pilots to be experienced and well rested.

Have a google at "Colgan Flight, Buffalo NY". Pilot fatigue played a big role in this fatal accident. Both pilots had been commuting for several hours before reporting for duty and had been seen dozing in the crew room.

Its now just after 0930, lets see how alert you will be at 5am tomorrow morning having had no rest until then.

dubdaymo

Tenger wrote: »

I assume that the BALPA video is aimed at FR....been awake for 22 hours... Its now just after 0930, let's see how alert you will be at 5am tomorrow morning having had no rest until then

Well, if it is aimed at FR my FR contacts tell me that this doesn't happen at FR and isn't likely to.

Yes, I'm well aware of the Colgan crash and the suspected fatigue element thereof but I don't think you could honestly say that fatigue is the recurring problem in aircraft incidents.

Tenger

dubdaymo wrote: »

Well, if it is aimed at FR my FR contacts tell me that this doesn't happen at FR and isn't likely to.

Yes, I'm well aware of the Colgan crash and the suspected fatigue element thereof but I don't think you could honestly say that fatigue is the recurring problem in aircraft incidents.

I wasn't claiming that that practise takes place in FR. The new rules currently being proposed however allow for that situation to occur. The EU want to lengthen current duty limits for flight crew. This will affect ALL airlines operating in the EU.

And yes the Colgan crash had fatigue as a major factor. I am not claiming fatigue as the recurring problem in aviation. but it took the Colgan crash for fatigue to be prominently featured as a possible problem for aviation. For many years the work/life balance of US pilots had resulted in a lot of fatigue. The industry had previously paid no attention to this issue. (This is less of a problem in Europe where airlines do not operate over such vast geographical area and most carriers have staff based at or near their 'Home' base)